New Order of the European Union Brussels overlords Nazi superstate.

[Park Life 71]

Czech have given in and signed.

 

The end of democracy as we know it?

[tooner 243]

Czech have given in and signed.

 

The end of democracy as we know it?

 

 

Que?

[AgentAxeman 199]

Czech have given in and signed.

 

The end of democracy as we know it?

 

 

nope, the start of a glorious cultural revolution comrade, which will be implemented through a series of 5 yr plans!!

[Park Life 71]

Czech have given in and signed.

 

The end of democracy as we know it?

 

 

nope, the start of a glorious cultural revolution comrade, which will be implemented through a series of 5 yr plans!!

 

[Park Life 71]

Czech have given in and signed.

 

The end of democracy as we know it?

 

 

Que?

 

Because faceless bureaucrats write the laws in dark rooms, which aren't properly debated or even sometimes not debated and ratified before anoyone outside of about 10 people know what happened.

[ewerk 31600]

Czech have given in and signed.

 

The end of democracy as we know it?

 

 

Que?

 

Because faceless bureaucrats write the laws in dark rooms, which aren't properly debated or even sometimes not debated and ratified before anoyone outside of about 10 people know what happened.

 

Best way to make laws though.

[NJS 4446]

Czech have given in and signed.

 

The end of democracy as we know it?

 

 

Que?

 

Because faceless bureaucrats write the laws in dark rooms, which aren't properly debated or even sometimes not debated and ratified before anoyone outside of about 10 people know what happened.

 

 

As opposed to people running scared of Mail readers who pass laws by mumbling them in front of an unelected head of state "by the grace of God"?

[Park Life 71]

Czech have given in and signed.

 

The end of democracy as we know it?

 

 

Que?

 

Because faceless bureaucrats write the laws in dark rooms, which aren't properly debated or even sometimes not debated and ratified before anoyone outside of about 10 people know what happened.

 

 

As opposed to people running scared of Mail readers who pass laws by mumbling them in front of an unelected head of state "by the grace of God"?

 

New laws in Parliament normally get one or more sessions of debate and furthermore are often part of the mandate during election times. It's nothing of the kind in Brussels and now with this new law the big 4 will start passing whole heaps of shit now that only a maj is needed.

[Meenzer 15871]

It's not like any of this stuff really matters. Civilisation always survives anyway.

[The Fish 11080]

I for one welcome our insect overlords and look forward to forced labour in their picnic mines

[NJS 4446]

New laws in Parliament normally get one or more sessions of debate and furthermore are often part of the mandate during election times. It's nothing of the kind in Brussels and now with this new law the big 4 will start passing whole heaps of shit now that only a maj is needed.

 

 

Like the Treaty of Lisbon itself which was passed by royal assent with no debate?

 

I'm pretty pro-europe as it happens but I think it's the wrong tack to hold up our "democracy" as a perfect model.

[AgentAxeman 199]

I for one welcome our insect overlords and look forward to forced labour in their picnic mines

 

 

[Park Life 71]

New laws in Parliament normally get one or more sessions of debate and furthermore are often part of the mandate during election times. It's nothing of the kind in Brussels and now with this new law the big 4 will start passing whole heaps of shit now that only a maj is needed.

 

 

Like the Treaty of Lisbon itself which was passed by royal assent with no debate?

 

I'm pretty pro-europe as it happens but I think it's the wrong tack to hold up our "democracy" as a perfect model.

 

Like I said that. Our model is pretty rickety these days, but what we're getting into here is a very slippery slope.

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 4089]

Got to add the fact that we have a party in power in london with an overwhelming majority voted in by 37% of the population.

[Meenzer 15871]

Got to add the fact that we have a party in power in london with an overwhelming majority voted in by 37% of the population.

If an absolute majority were in any way relevant, nothing would have happened in this country since 1931.

[Guest alex]

That's always going to be the case with a first past the post system though. It works quite well I suppose although it doesn't exactly encourage the people disillusioned with politics to vote either.

[NJS 4446]

Got to add the fact that we have a party in power in london with an overwhelming majority voted in by 37% of the population.

 

In 1950 Labour got 51% and lost.

 

The present system looks unfair I'd agree but I have grave reservations about PR even though it sounds fairer at face value. For example I think it can lead to minorities like the Irish parties (and potentially the BNP) having power out of proportion with their mandate.

 

I also don't like the idea of transferring votes based on a preference order - the Tories aren't my Nth choice they're my beyond infinity choice.

[Meenzer 15871]

Got to add the fact that we have a party in power in london with an overwhelming majority voted in by 37% of the population.

 

In 1950 Labour got 51% and lost.

 

The present system looks unfair I'd agree but I have grave reservations about PR even though it sounds fairer at face value. For example I think it can lead to minorities like the Irish parties (and potentially the BNP) having power out of proportion with their mandate.

 

I also don't like the idea of transferring votes based on a preference order - the Tories aren't my Nth choice they're my beyond infinity choice.

The German system isn't bad - half directly elected ("first past the post") with the rest topped up to reflect the proportional national vote (and no "single transferable vote"-style "next best evil" votes as described in your last paragraph).

 

So if you're an extremist party, you have to get a pretty decent share of the mainstream vote to be represented in parliament - unless your candidate is elected directly in a given constituency, in which case you're in.

 

I doubt we'll ever have anything but first-past-the-post in this country, though - if we can't contemplate the idea of a currency without the Queen's head on it, we're never going to accept impenetrable foreign muck like balanced PR.

[AgentAxeman 199]

"David Cameron's U-turn on a 'cast-iron guarantee' to hold a referendum on the European Union's reform treaty has devastating implications for British democracy

 

This a desperately sad moment for British democracy and sovereignty - a moment when the great majority of voters have been disenfranchised and left with no serious political party to represent their views.

The implications of David Cameron's retreat over Europe are as simple and devastating as that.

 

It is an ineluctable fact: poll after poll has shown that most Britons are strongly against the expansion of the EU's power - and an even greater majority demand the referendum promised by all three main parties in their manifestos at the last General Election.

Of course, it goes without saying that the true scoundrels in this debacle are New Labour.

 

Once safely re-elected, they chose to ignore their unequivocal commitment to the electorate, hiding behind the lie that the Lisbon Treaty was substantially different from the EU constitution that Tony Blair had promised to put to voters.

 

Mr Brown, to his eternal shame, also reneged on his promise of a referendum.

Then at 3pm this Tuesday, when Czech president Vaclav Klaus gave up his lonely resistance and added the final signature to the treaty, the betrayal was complete.

 

After eight years of anti-democratic plotting and bribery, the empire-builders of Europe had finally got their way. The European superstate was born, with all the trappings of an imperial power, from a president and a foreign minister to a defence policy of its own.

 

Tories will give people a vote on any future transfer of power to Brussels, pledges Cameron (but not on the Lisbon Treaty)

 

Only one hope remained that the voice of the British people would be heard - and that the EU might yet be forced to repatriate some of the powers that Gordon Brown had signed away.

Hadn't David Cameron offered us his solemn promise that he would give us that referendum we demanded?

To quote his very words, which he wrote in the Sun newspaper in September 2007: 'Today, I will give this cast-iron guarantee: if I become PM a Conservative government will hold a referendum on any EU treaty that emerges from these negotiations.'

Not much room for doubt there, was there?

But yesterday, the Tory leader's 'cast-iron guarantee' melted away like wax. True, a referendum after the treaty has come into force would present certain practical difficulties of wording.

 

And no doubt Mr Cameron feared that a referendum campaign would distract him from the pressing crisis in the public finances.

 

But if this is the case, he should not have raised people's expectations by promising a referendum.

For great leadership is about honouring pledges and acting on conviction and belief - not the laws of short-termism and expediency.

 

The cancer destroying faith in modern politics is that the ruling class keep going back on their word and denying voters their say.

 

Put simply, this paper cannot understand why we can't have a referendum, even now that Lisbon has been ratified.

As former Shadow Home Secretary David Davis argued so powerfully in yesterday's Mail, it would greatly strengthen Britain's hand at the negotiating table if our Prime Minister could claim a popular mandate for opt-outs on such issues as justice, asylum, immigration and human rights.

 

But instead, Mr Cameron pledges only to put any future treaties to referendums, while saying he will introduce a 'Sovereignty Bill' to ensure the supremacy of UK laws.

With our system of government at stake, this is pretty sorry stuff.

 

And of course the worst aspect of Lisbon is that it obviates the need for future treaties, since it gives the EU authority to change its own constitution. Moreover, what good can it do to pass legislation asserting the supremacy of British laws, when we've already signed that supremacy away?

 

What makes Mr Cameron's backpedalling so depressing is that he has often seemed to stand apart from the political class - all the more necessary when the MPs' expenses scandal has opened up a yawning chasm between Westminster and the people.

 

True, he has been far too reluctant to voice popular concerns over such issues as mass unrestricted immigration.

But on such matters as the importance of the family, the need to clean up Westminster - and, yes, until yesterday on Europe - his gut instincts have been far closer than New Labour's to the views of ordinary electors. He must find the courage to trust those instincts and fight for what he believes.

 

At this of all times, Britain is crying out for politicians of integrity who will put into words and action what the majority believe.

 

That is what democracy is all about."

[Guest alex]

I bet that's from the Mail

[NJS 4446]

Not for one moment wanting to defend a Tory but the one report on this I saw a couple of weeks ago definitely had Cameron saying "we will hold a referendum if the treaty hasn't been ratified" - clear as day.

 

Obviously the Checks might have delayed again but they didn't so the promise is defunct.

[Guest alex]

Not for one moment wanting to defend a Tory but the one report on this I saw a couple of weeks ago definitely had Cameron saying "we will hold a referendum if the treaty hasn't been ratified" - clear as day.

 

Obviously the Checks might have delayed again but they didn't so the promise is defunct.

He did say that, which is basically a cop-out, so this isn't 'news'. Although it's a change in stance from what he was saying a couple of years ago, i.e. he would definitely hold a referendum if he got in.

[Park Life 71]

Might as well shut Parliament down.

[ewerk 31600]

He may as well have promised a referendum on the Maastricht Treaty, he was fairly sure it would have already been ratified before any general election.

[AgentAxeman 199]

I bet that's from the Mail

 

 

How on earth did you guess??