The Guitar Thread

[Gemmill 44865]

Yeah you can definitely do that. 

[Blastronaut 1333]

14 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

Yeah you can definitely do that. 

 

That's fucking amazing tbh. There you go Tom. Nae excuses next time you get shafted with a solid-state head with an effects loop.

 

Ah I jest, you won't get the same response from a solid-state power amp, but at least you could rule out the solid-state preamp being the issue and hopefully get closer to the sound you're used to if you ever in a pinch like that again. 

[Blastronaut 1333]

Actually fuck knows if it would even work. Any of you fancy trying it? Guitar> Helix > Effects loop return and have the helix model your amps preamp that you've just bypassed. Im really curious how well it works, if it works at all.

[Andrew 4748]

2 minutes ago, Blastronaut said:

Actually fuck knows if it would even work. Any of you fancy trying it? Guitar> Helix > Effects loop return and have the helix model your amps preamp that you've just bypassed. Im really curious how well it works, if it works at all.

It absolutely works, I ran mine like that through a dreadful old line 6 head for a while

[Tom 14011]

Ah ok….this all makes sense  

 

So for an effects loop do i plug my pedals into that and my guitar straight into the amp? I’ve never done it before! 

[Gemmill 44865]

34 minutes ago, Tom said:

Ah ok….this all makes sense  

 

So for an effects loop do i plug my pedals into that and my guitar straight into the amp? I’ve never done it before! 

 

I think I'm right in saying that the only difference to what you're currently doing is:

 

- Put a Helix amp model at the end of your current signal chain*

- Instead of plugging from HX output into the Amp Input, plug from HX output into the Amp FX Return

 

That way you've bypassed the shitty preamp of the physical amp, and are just using the preamp of whichever Helix amp model you've chosen and using the physical amp as just a speaker cabinet. 

 

*question for Blastronaut and Andrew: does he need a helix cabinet model too? Or just the preamp and the physical amp is providing the cabinet? 

[sammynb 3355]

13 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

 

I think I'm right in saying that the only difference to what you're currently doing is:

 

- Put a Helix amp model at the end of your current signal chain*

- Instead of plugging from HX output into the Amp Input, plug from HX output into the Amp FX Return

 

That way you've bypassed the shitty preamp of the physical amp, and are just using the preamp of whichever Helix amp model you've chosen and using the physical amp as just a speaker cabinet. 

 

*question for Blastronaut and Andrew: does he need a helix cabinet model too? Or just the preamp and the physical amp is providing the cabinet? 

Not Blastronaut or Andrew but I can answer this, you still need a power amp to power the speaker cabinet, so by going in the effects loop, it bypasses the preamp.

The head or a combo amp are actually what is called an intergrated amp, so signal>preamp>power amp>speaker.

At one stage in the 80s bass players started just buying preamps to tour with because as you can imagine a bass rig is huge and pain in the balls to lug around but their sound was formed with the preamp.

edit: After a quick look at the Helix site, the helix cabinet model is just a speaker soundalike plug in for recording direct, so no it wouldn't have any bearing upon playing live with a speaker cabinet.

Edited February 7 by sammynb

[Gemmill 44865]

6 minutes ago, sammynb said:

Not Blastronaut or Andrew but I can answer this, you still need a power amp to power the speaker cabinet, so by going in the effects loop, it bypasses the preamp.

The head or a combo amp are actually what is called an intergrated amp, so signal>preamp>power amp>speaker.

At one stage in the 80s bass players started just buying preamps to tour with because as you can imagine a bass rig is huge and pain in the balls to lug around but their sound was formed with the preamp.

edit: After a quick look at the Helix site, the helix cabinet model is just a speaker soundalike plug in for recording direct, so no it wouldn't have any bearing upon playing live with a speaker cabinet.

 

I dunno, I think it's a bit different in modelling. Or at least I don't understand it that well! My understanding of the Helix cabinet models is that they're basically just impulse responses designed to mimic the sound of a mic'ed cabinet. 

 

So if I pick a Princeton amp model, I can pair that with a 1x10 Celestion (or whatever speaker type) cabinet and then pick various mics and mic positions. Or I can pair it with anything else. 

 

Is that effectively just a modelled power amp? 

[sammynb 3355]

I forgot to mention, those cabinet models are also for live performers who no long use individual amps but all plug in to the PA.

I remember reading about Low totally ditching amps and through a gig, they would use different cabinet model plugins for different songs, allowing them not to be locked into a single amp sound.

[Gemmill 44865]

5 minutes ago, sammynb said:

I forgot to mention, those cabinet models are also for live performers who no long use individual amps but all plug in to the PA.

I remember reading about Low totally ditching amps and through a gig, they would use different cabinet model plugins for different songs, allowing them not to be locked into a single amp sound.

 

My home setup is Helix into a FRFR speaker, so I have both amp and cabinet model in my Helix signal chain. 

 

You can have dual cabinets with different mic and mic placements etc. It gets to be a bit much for me cos I'm not an expert in any of that shit, so I try not to overcomplicate what I'm doing. 

[sammynb 3355]

2 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

Is that effectively just a modelled power amp? 

 

No, you are right, it's purely the speaker box sound, as stated above. So if you are picking say an AC30, then that is the pre and power and amp (this would be the head in a physical amp), then if you match it to say to 2 x 12" Celestion speaker box, you would be creating a digital version of an AC30 combo amp.

But none of these have the physical output to drive an actual speaker box.

Probably the most basic way to explain it all.

 

A turntable > phono stage = line level

A passive pickup guitar/mic/cd player = line level

Active pickups = above line level, not pre amp level

Guitar passive pickups <provides power for/signal back > Preamp level > power amp = driving speakers

 

Does that make sense?

 

[Gemmill 44865]

Yep, thank you. 

 

And that's a good point actually cos I think Tom would also need to change his settings so that his output is delivering a line level signal and not an instrument level one. 

 

It's a piece of piss to do and would make a big difference. 

Edited February 7 by Gemmill

[Gemmill 44865]

Or am I talking shite and that would blow the amp.

 

[sammynb 3355]

3 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

 

My home setup is Helix into a FRFR speaker, so I have both amp and cabinet model in my Helix signal chain. 

 

You can have dual cabinets with different mic and mic placements etc. It gets to be a bit much for me cos I'm not an expert in any of that shit, so I try not to overcomplicate what I'm doing. 

 

Yeah so that's just a solid state powered speaker that would run off line level input.

[Blastronaut 1333]

59 minutes ago, Tom said:

Ah ok….this all makes sense  

 

So for an effects loop do i plug my pedals into that and my guitar straight into the amp? I’ve never done it before! 

 

Keep your pedal chain as normal but instead of running into the front of the amp like you normally would, run it all into the "return" of the effects loop. The pre-gain on the amp head as well as the EQ controls will stop working since you've bypassed that section. Then in the helix you can add another patch at thenend of whatever you've set the helix to effectively replace the bit of the physical amp youve just bypassed. 

 

I'm probably not describing this well, it's not complicated. I'll get my etch-a-sketch out after I've had another coffee.

 

32 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

 

 

*question for Blastronaut and Andrew: does he need a helix cabinet model too? Or just the preamp and the physical amp is providing the cabinet? 

 

I'd say just the pre-amp model but he might not even need that, chances are he's already got the helix doing something similar already. Worth experimenting though, won't break anything.

 

Sammy's got the idea. In the 80's and 90's you'd do the exactly the same with the things like the Tech21 Sans-amp instead of the helix. Also handy for times when you've blown pre-amp tubes and don't have a spares with you.

[sammynb 3355]

Just now, Gemmill said:

Or am I talking shite and that would blow the amp.

 

 

No, line level is what a passive pickup guitar provides already, it's the preamp that boosts it, hence why running the Helix into the input, you are getting a preamp going into another preamp, which has more chance of blowing the physical preamp stage.

But it's also pretty difficult to fuck solid state amp those things are like Russian spaceflight shite, unless you pour water on it.

[Blastronaut 1333]

3 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

Or am I talking shite and that would blow the amp.

 

 

You'll be fine. Shouldn't need to change anything, effects loops are essentially designed with bog standard delay and reverb pedals in mind. 

[sammynb 3355]

3 minutes ago, Blastronaut said:

 

You'll be fine. Shouldn't need to change anything, effects loops are essentially designed with bog standard delay and reverb pedals in mind. 

 

Probably best example is Blastronaut's overdrive that we all know - compare the volume with that on and off, off you are at line level, on (obviously depending on how you have it set but with everything at 100%) it is pushing the signal level to above line, hence why you get a rise in volume without changing anything on the amp. So in effect it is working as a preamp, albeit lower powered version.

Edited February 7 by sammynb

[Blastronaut 1333]

4 minutes ago, sammynb said:

 

No, line level is what a passive pickup guitar provides already, 

 

 

Not quite, it's instrument level which is somewhere between line level and mic level. 

 

Not really all that import though for this because:

 

6 minutes ago, sammynb said:

it's also pretty difficult to fuck solid state amp those things are like Russian spaceflight shite, unless you pour water on it.

 

Totally. There's no risk here. Think of everything between the amp front input and the effects loop "send" as just another pedal chain. 

[Blastronaut 1333]

You should all also try this out with a Metalzone if you ever get the chance. Ola knows.

 

 

[sammynb 3355]

58 minutes ago, Blastronaut said:

 

Not quite, it's instrument level which is somewhere between line level and mic level.

 

 

I, this is where my knowledge let's me down, the actual measurements, what is the actual difference between instrument and line level?

it's not much is it?

As a kid before I could afford an amp I remember using the mic input on a boom box!

 

 

Edited February 7 by sammynb

[sammynb 3355]

48 minutes ago, Blastronaut said:

You should all also try this out with a Metalzone if you ever get the chance. Ola knows.

 

 

I was reading somewhere those thing are worth a bomb these days!

Fuck knows why the DF-02 were a much better pedal.

[Blastronaut 1333]

13 minutes ago, sammynb said:

 

I, this is where my knowledge let's me down, the actual measurements, what is the actual difference between instrument and line level?

it's not much is it?

As a kid before I could afford an amp I remember using the mic input on a boom box!

 

 

 

Rule of thumb is if you think of line level as around 0dB, instrument level would be -30dB and mic level -50dB. 

 

You were bang on about the preamp taking a guitar pickup signal above line level. Even a boost pedal (Rangemaster +32dB/MXR microamp +24dB) takes it up to line level territory.

 

18 minutes ago, sammynb said:

I was reading somewhere those thing are worth a bomb these days!

Fuck knows why the DF-02 were a much better pedal.

 

I think Boss are still making them, they're just not as cheap used anymore. Im sure there was a time you'd have struggled to even give them away.

 

[Tom 14011]

I feel like this is more complicated than just being slightly louder at times but ill give it a go for sure  

[Blastronaut 1333]

1 hour ago, Tom said:

I feel like this is more complicated than just being slightly louder at times but ill give it a go for sure  

 

I honestly think I've made it sound way more complicated than it needed to be. Change nothing, just plug everything into the fx return instead of the front of the amp. Fucking about with the helix settings is optional but maybe worth experimenting with.