Iran has backup nuke facillity

[Happy Face 29]

I meant the states themselves rather than your average Joe Public.

 

 

See, that's my worry. You have Iran as your enemy, it's not just State Vs State, Soldier vs Soldier; their Javeed Public will also get involved. I'd be expecting suicide attacks from radicals sneaking into this country and also from ex-pats already here. It's a fear I'm quite happy to admit is fuelled by images of moderate Iranians being beaten by their police, tales of their "Moral Police", images of young Iranians burning anything they can get their hands on, in hateful protest against the west and it's while all being run through a western media filter I don't believe it's all fabricated or exaggerated

 

I don't think it's fabricated, I can understand it though. When you have the level of hypocrisy whereby Obama, flanked by Brown can say Iran "is breaking rules that all nations must follow" while continuing to torture detainees to death.

 

Yeah, but there is proportionate response mate.

 

Crying for Iran to be wiped off the face of the planet, while conducting nuclear progress is bound to provoke this kind of reaction from the west. Flip the tables; if Germany (for example) had called for Iran to be wiped off the face of the planet, it wouldn't be met with stern phrase and concerned faces. There'd be rioting on the streets, calls for Angie to be beheaded.

 

Fucking hell, you can't call a teddy bear Mohammed, you can't draw his likeness! I expect them to be distrustful of the west, to be disdainful of Israel, but unfortunately I also expect them to ignore laws they don't agree with and fail to admonish or properly punish the zealots. You say Obama and Brown are hypocrites, but the radicals in Iran are reactionary hypocrites themselves. They demand equality on the global stage, but don't even give equality to their own people. They've (rightly) remarked on the despicable torturing, but summarliy beat women in public for not wearing the right kind of scarf.

 

I'm all for pluracy, I'm all for inclusion, but sometimes you have to wonder how many exceptions we have to make to account for their sensibilities?

 

As much as we need to take steps towards atoning for past mistakes and building a better relationship with them, they need to do the same for us. There is progress being made, but I don't think it's happening in the right places. Roy Keane is a puppet of the entrenched regime and while they're in power there isn't enough that's going to change.

 

(sorry for rambling)

 

No need to apologise. An excellent post that says more in 4 or 5 paragraphs than Fop could in 6 pages.

 

I would say there is fear in the Muslim world that the west does want to wipe them off the map. And actions, not just words, suggest it too. They see Israel continue it's march into Gaza backed by western might, and can't be blamed for drawing that conclusion.

Edited September 29, 2009 by Happy Face

[Fop 1]

Quite fancy a holiday in Tel Aviv though, not so sure about Tehran.

I'd rather go to the USA for a holiday than Iran but I'd rather have the latter for an enemy

 

Not sure I'd go that far. America might be ignorant bullies with incredible military might, but the moderates hold more sway; their citizens are less likely to take it upon themselves to drive a truck-bomb into a Wetherspoons. I know Iran is not as howl-at-the-moon as some of that neck of the woods, but the radicals are more influential than the nutters in America.

 

The Christian Right may be a potent force, but their followers don't blow themselves up.

 

I'm saying that I know Iran aren't the sociopaths some would have us believe, but neither are they simpy our misunderstood brethren.

 

 

Radicals completely rigged their last election, and are still killing people that are protesting against it now.

 

 

Iranians are fine (no different to anyone else), but the Iranian regime is probably the most dangerous in the world.

[Fop 1]

I meant the states themselves rather than your average Joe Public.

 

 

See, that's my worry. You have Iran as your enemy, it's not just State Vs State, Soldier vs Soldier; their Javeed Public will also get involved. I'd be expecting suicide attacks from radicals sneaking into this country and also from ex-pats already here. It's a fear I'm quite happy to admit is fuelled by images of moderate Iranians being beaten by their police, tales of their "Moral Police", images of young Iranians burning anything they can get their hands on, in hateful protest against the west and it's while all being run through a western media filter I don't believe it's all fabricated or exaggerated

 

I don't think it's fabricated, I can understand it though. When you have the level of hypocrisy whereby Obama, flanked by Brown can say Iran "is breaking rules that all nations must follow" while continuing to torture detainees to death.

 

And Iran shooting people for protesting against a completely rigged election is "ok"?

[Happy Face 29]

I meant the states themselves rather than your average Joe Public.

 

 

See, that's my worry. You have Iran as your enemy, it's not just State Vs State, Soldier vs Soldier; their Javeed Public will also get involved. I'd be expecting suicide attacks from radicals sneaking into this country and also from ex-pats already here. It's a fear I'm quite happy to admit is fuelled by images of moderate Iranians being beaten by their police, tales of their "Moral Police", images of young Iranians burning anything they can get their hands on, in hateful protest against the west and it's while all being run through a western media filter I don't believe it's all fabricated or exaggerated

 

I don't think it's fabricated, I can understand it though. When you have the level of hypocrisy whereby Obama, flanked by Brown can say Iran "is breaking rules that all nations must follow" while continuing to torture detainees to death.

 

And Iran shooting people for protesting against a completely rigged election is "ok"?

 

Not sure where you get that impression.

[Fop 1]

I meant the states themselves rather than your average Joe Public.

 

 

See, that's my worry. You have Iran as your enemy, it's not just State Vs State, Soldier vs Soldier; their Javeed Public will also get involved. I'd be expecting suicide attacks from radicals sneaking into this country and also from ex-pats already here. It's a fear I'm quite happy to admit is fuelled by images of moderate Iranians being beaten by their police, tales of their "Moral Police", images of young Iranians burning anything they can get their hands on, in hateful protest against the west and it's while all being run through a western media filter I don't believe it's all fabricated or exaggerated

 

I don't think it's fabricated, I can understand it though. When you have the level of hypocrisy whereby Obama, flanked by Brown can say Iran "is breaking rules that all nations must follow" while continuing to torture detainees to death.

 

And Iran shooting people for protesting against a completely rigged election is "ok"?

 

Not sure where you get that impression.

 

So is Iran a worse regime than the USA?

[Fop 1]

I meant the states themselves rather than your average Joe Public.

 

 

See, that's my worry. You have Iran as your enemy, it's not just State Vs State, Soldier vs Soldier; their Javeed Public will also get involved. I'd be expecting suicide attacks from radicals sneaking into this country and also from ex-pats already here. It's a fear I'm quite happy to admit is fuelled by images of moderate Iranians being beaten by their police, tales of their "Moral Police", images of young Iranians burning anything they can get their hands on, in hateful protest against the west and it's while all being run through a western media filter I don't believe it's all fabricated or exaggerated

 

But surely you have some degree of understanding as why these people feel this way towards the west. I dont confess to know all the background to these things but wasnt it us and usa who supplied Saddam with all his weapons in the war against iran.

Now if my daughter / son / mother was getting blown up by scottish troops, armed to the hilt by the Americans......How would I feel.

 

A lot of this hatred is self inflicted through years of stupidity with regard to foreign affairs. What is needed is great men or women of vision. Some thought we might be getting that with Obama, but maybe not.

 

 

Nope. Soviet Union supplied him with loads of stuff (tanks, missiles etc. almost all Russian), although the West supplied him with stuff too and of course bought oil (as did the USSR) which helped him fund himself.

[Fop 1]

Now your being silly. The USA is the most dangerous regime in the world.

Now that is silly.

 

Do you agree, Chris?

[Happy Face 29]

I meant the states themselves rather than your average Joe Public.

 

 

See, that's my worry. You have Iran as your enemy, it's not just State Vs State, Soldier vs Soldier; their Javeed Public will also get involved. I'd be expecting suicide attacks from radicals sneaking into this country and also from ex-pats already here. It's a fear I'm quite happy to admit is fuelled by images of moderate Iranians being beaten by their police, tales of their "Moral Police", images of young Iranians burning anything they can get their hands on, in hateful protest against the west and it's while all being run through a western media filter I don't believe it's all fabricated or exaggerated

 

I don't think it's fabricated, I can understand it though. When you have the level of hypocrisy whereby Obama, flanked by Brown can say Iran "is breaking rules that all nations must follow" while continuing to torture detainees to death.

 

And Iran shooting people for protesting against a completely rigged election is "ok"?

 

Not sure where you get that impression.

 

So is Iran a worse regime than the USA?

 

Based on that one criteria?

 

That's a question that invites a 5000 word essay.

 

Iran have rigged elections...The US have rigged elections

Iran torture...the US torture

Iran kill their own citizens for protesting....the US kill their own citizens for protesting

The US bomb and kill hundreds of thousands of other countries civilians...Iran don't

Iran have the death penalty...the US have the death penalty

Iran's religious zealots kill a LOT of people....the US religious zealots kill some people

Iran treat women disgracefully...women are almost equal in America

etc...

[Renton 21640]

I meant the states themselves rather than your average Joe Public.

 

 

See, that's my worry. You have Iran as your enemy, it's not just State Vs State, Soldier vs Soldier; their Javeed Public will also get involved. I'd be expecting suicide attacks from radicals sneaking into this country and also from ex-pats already here. It's a fear I'm quite happy to admit is fuelled by images of moderate Iranians being beaten by their police, tales of their "Moral Police", images of young Iranians burning anything they can get their hands on, in hateful protest against the west and it's while all being run through a western media filter I don't believe it's all fabricated or exaggerated

 

I don't think it's fabricated, I can understand it though. When you have the level of hypocrisy whereby Obama, flanked by Brown can say Iran "is breaking rules that all nations must follow" while continuing to torture detainees to death.

 

And Iran shooting people for protesting against a completely rigged election is "ok"?

 

Not sure where you get that impression.

 

So is Iran a worse regime than the USA?

 

Based on that one criteria?

 

That's a question that invites a 5000 word essay.

 

Iran have rigged elections...The US have rigged elections

Iran torture...the US torture

Iran kill their own citizens for protesting....the US kill their own citizens for protesting

The US bomb and kill hundreds of thousands of other countries civilians...Iran don't

Iran have the death penalty...the US have the death penalty

Iran's religious zealots kill a LOT of people....the US religious zealots kill some people

Iran treat women disgracefully...women are almost equal in America

etc...

 

Iran is a fundamentalist theocracy........ The US is a fundamentalist theocracy approximately 50% of the time.

 

Daft comparison here HF, it's not worth pursuing. Otherwise I'll send you a box set of the best Iranian comedy.

[Fop 1]

The problem is some people are trying to cloud this argument with human rights issues. While wrong, not everything can be resolved in one go. When I was growing up it was the big bad russians and now people are going on holiday

 

Anyone with an ounce of common sense understands the following;

 

1. The west has brought a lot of this on itself by its foreign policy decisions.

 

2. Oil is a major factor in how interested our governments are in what goes on there.

 

3. Israel flouts un resolutions and no action is taken.

 

 

I think Governments will fall in this country before the public allows any war on Iran to proceed, thankfully.

 

 

Type "neda youtube" into google and watch the video (as it seems links are being deleted even if clearly labels as NSFW and horrible )

 

And after watching that video say that human rights issue is a "cloud".

[Fop 1]

I meant the states themselves rather than your average Joe Public.

 

 

See, that's my worry. You have Iran as your enemy, it's not just State Vs State, Soldier vs Soldier; their Javeed Public will also get involved. I'd be expecting suicide attacks from radicals sneaking into this country and also from ex-pats already here. It's a fear I'm quite happy to admit is fuelled by images of moderate Iranians being beaten by their police, tales of their "Moral Police", images of young Iranians burning anything they can get their hands on, in hateful protest against the west and it's while all being run through a western media filter I don't believe it's all fabricated or exaggerated

 

I don't think it's fabricated, I can understand it though. When you have the level of hypocrisy whereby Obama, flanked by Brown can say Iran "is breaking rules that all nations must follow" while continuing to torture detainees to death.

 

And Iran shooting people for protesting against a completely rigged election is "ok"?

 

Not sure where you get that impression.

 

So is Iran a worse regime than the USA?

 

Based on that one criteria?

 

That's a question that invites a 5000 word essay.

 

Iran have rigged elections...The US have rigged elections

Iran torture...the US torture

Iran kill their own citizens for protesting....the US kill their own citizens for protesting

The US bomb and kill hundreds of thousands of other countries civilians...Iran don't

Iran have the death penalty...the US have the death penalty

Iran's religious zealots kill a LOT of people....the US religious zealots kill some people

Iran treat women disgracefully...women are almost equal in America

etc...

 

So you are saying you think that the USA is as bad (or worse) as Iran?

Edited September 29, 2009 by Fop

[Fop 1]

I meant the states themselves rather than your average Joe Public.

 

 

See, that's my worry. You have Iran as your enemy, it's not just State Vs State, Soldier vs Soldier; their Javeed Public will also get involved. I'd be expecting suicide attacks from radicals sneaking into this country and also from ex-pats already here. It's a fear I'm quite happy to admit is fuelled by images of moderate Iranians being beaten by their police, tales of their "Moral Police", images of young Iranians burning anything they can get their hands on, in hateful protest against the west and it's while all being run through a western media filter I don't believe it's all fabricated or exaggerated

 

But surely you have some degree of understanding as why these people feel this way towards the west. I dont confess to know all the background to these things but wasnt it us and usa who supplied Saddam with all his weapons in the war against iran.

Now if my daughter / son / mother was getting blown up by scottish troops, armed to the hilt by the Americans......How would I feel.

 

A lot of this hatred is self inflicted through years of stupidity with regard to foreign affairs. What is needed is great men or women of vision. Some thought we might be getting that with Obama, but maybe not.

 

 

Nope. Soviet Union supplied him with loads of stuff (tanks, missiles etc. almost all Russian), although the West supplied him with stuff too and of course bought oil (as did the USSR) which helped him fund himself.

 

So thats basically a yes then and thats before we even get into the one million or so children that died due to the sanctions imposed on Iraq by Bush senior.

 

If you can not see how the majority of this hatred has been fuelled by the wests actions then I gracefully give in..

 

So why no hate for Russia that actually supplied him with most of the tanks, artillery ammunition and missiles used in the Iran/Iraq war (and indeed in invading Kuwait)?

[Happy Face 29]

I meant the states themselves rather than your average Joe Public.

 

 

See, that's my worry. You have Iran as your enemy, it's not just State Vs State, Soldier vs Soldier; their Javeed Public will also get involved. I'd be expecting suicide attacks from radicals sneaking into this country and also from ex-pats already here. It's a fear I'm quite happy to admit is fuelled by images of moderate Iranians being beaten by their police, tales of their "Moral Police", images of young Iranians burning anything they can get their hands on, in hateful protest against the west and it's while all being run through a western media filter I don't believe it's all fabricated or exaggerated

 

I don't think it's fabricated, I can understand it though. When you have the level of hypocrisy whereby Obama, flanked by Brown can say Iran "is breaking rules that all nations must follow" while continuing to torture detainees to death.

 

And Iran shooting people for protesting against a completely rigged election is "ok"?

 

Not sure where you get that impression.

 

So is Iran a worse regime than the USA?

 

Based on that one criteria?

 

That's a question that invites a 5000 word essay.

 

Iran have rigged elections...The US have rigged elections

Iran torture...the US torture

Iran kill their own citizens for protesting....the US kill their own citizens for protesting

The US bomb and kill hundreds of thousands of other countries civilians...Iran don't

Iran have the death penalty...the US have the death penalty

Iran's religious zealots kill a LOT of people....the US religious zealots kill some people

Iran treat women disgracefully...women are almost equal in America

etc...

 

So you are saying you think that the USA is as bad (or worse) as Iran?

 

Taliban or IRA?

 

Pirate or Ninja?

 

Mr T or Chuck Norris?

 

We really need a TV show to investigate and tell us the answer.

[Fop 1]

The problem is some people are trying to cloud this argument with human rights issues. While wrong, not everything can be resolved in one go. When I was growing up it was the big bad russians and now people are going on holiday

 

Anyone with an ounce of common sense understands the following;

 

1. The west has brought a lot of this on itself by its foreign policy decisions.

 

2. Oil is a major factor in how interested our governments are in what goes on there.

 

3. Israel flouts un resolutions and no action is taken.

 

 

I think Governments will fall in this country before the public allows any war on Iran to proceed, thankfully.

 

 

Type "neda youtube" into google and watch the video (as it seems links are being deleted even if clearly labels as NSFW and horrible )

 

And after watching that video say that human rights issue is a "cloud".

 

 

Silly argument in a thread about whether young english men and women should be sent to die based on nuclear disagreements.

 

If I was sad, I would google Human rights and type in a full list of horrors from around the world.

 

And just for the record now that you have asked me three times, No i dont want to watch any disturbing videos thankyou.

 

They you are a coward. If you don't have the courage to face your convictions you have no courage or convictions at all I'm afraid.

Edited September 29, 2009 by Fop

[Fop 1]

I meant the states themselves rather than your average Joe Public.

 

 

See, that's my worry. You have Iran as your enemy, it's not just State Vs State, Soldier vs Soldier; their Javeed Public will also get involved. I'd be expecting suicide attacks from radicals sneaking into this country and also from ex-pats already here. It's a fear I'm quite happy to admit is fuelled by images of moderate Iranians being beaten by their police, tales of their "Moral Police", images of young Iranians burning anything they can get their hands on, in hateful protest against the west and it's while all being run through a western media filter I don't believe it's all fabricated or exaggerated

 

I don't think it's fabricated, I can understand it though. When you have the level of hypocrisy whereby Obama, flanked by Brown can say Iran "is breaking rules that all nations must follow" while continuing to torture detainees to death.

 

And Iran shooting people for protesting against a completely rigged election is "ok"?

 

Not sure where you get that impression.

 

So is Iran a worse regime than the USA?

 

Based on that one criteria?

 

That's a question that invites a 5000 word essay.

 

Iran have rigged elections...The US have rigged elections

Iran torture...the US torture

Iran kill their own citizens for protesting....the US kill their own citizens for protesting

The US bomb and kill hundreds of thousands of other countries civilians...Iran don't

Iran have the death penalty...the US have the death penalty

Iran's religious zealots kill a LOT of people....the US religious zealots kill some people

Iran treat women disgracefully...women are almost equal in America

etc...

 

So you are saying you think that the USA is as bad (or worse) as Iran?

 

Taliban or IRA?

 

Pirate or Ninja?

 

Mr T or Chuck Norris?

 

We really need a TV show to investigate and tell us the answer.

 

It's a simple question Chris. Is Iran a worse regime than the USA?

[Happy Face 29]

I meant the states themselves rather than your average Joe Public.

 

 

See, that's my worry. You have Iran as your enemy, it's not just State Vs State, Soldier vs Soldier; their Javeed Public will also get involved. I'd be expecting suicide attacks from radicals sneaking into this country and also from ex-pats already here. It's a fear I'm quite happy to admit is fuelled by images of moderate Iranians being beaten by their police, tales of their "Moral Police", images of young Iranians burning anything they can get their hands on, in hateful protest against the west and it's while all being run through a western media filter I don't believe it's all fabricated or exaggerated

 

I don't think it's fabricated, I can understand it though. When you have the level of hypocrisy whereby Obama, flanked by Brown can say Iran "is breaking rules that all nations must follow" while continuing to torture detainees to death.

 

And Iran shooting people for protesting against a completely rigged election is "ok"?

 

Not sure where you get that impression.

 

So is Iran a worse regime than the USA?

 

Based on that one criteria?

 

That's a question that invites a 5000 word essay.

 

Iran have rigged elections...The US have rigged elections

Iran torture...the US torture

Iran kill their own citizens for protesting....the US kill their own citizens for protesting

The US bomb and kill hundreds of thousands of other countries civilians...Iran don't

Iran have the death penalty...the US have the death penalty

Iran's religious zealots kill a LOT of people....the US religious zealots kill some people

Iran treat women disgracefully...women are almost equal in America

etc...

 

So you are saying you think that the USA is as bad (or worse) as Iran?

 

Taliban or IRA?

 

Pirate or Ninja?

 

Mr T or Chuck Norris?

 

We really need a TV show to investigate and tell us the answer.

 

It's a simple question Chris. Is Iran a worse regime than the USA?

 

The fact you think it's a simple question says it all really.

[Fop 1]

I meant the states themselves rather than your average Joe Public.

 

 

See, that's my worry. You have Iran as your enemy, it's not just State Vs State, Soldier vs Soldier; their Javeed Public will also get involved. I'd be expecting suicide attacks from radicals sneaking into this country and also from ex-pats already here. It's a fear I'm quite happy to admit is fuelled by images of moderate Iranians being beaten by their police, tales of their "Moral Police", images of young Iranians burning anything they can get their hands on, in hateful protest against the west and it's while all being run through a western media filter I don't believe it's all fabricated or exaggerated

 

I don't think it's fabricated, I can understand it though. When you have the level of hypocrisy whereby Obama, flanked by Brown can say Iran "is breaking rules that all nations must follow" while continuing to torture detainees to death.

 

And Iran shooting people for protesting against a completely rigged election is "ok"?

 

Not sure where you get that impression.

 

So is Iran a worse regime than the USA?

 

Based on that one criteria?

 

That's a question that invites a 5000 word essay.

 

Iran have rigged elections...The US have rigged elections

Iran torture...the US torture

Iran kill their own citizens for protesting....the US kill their own citizens for protesting

The US bomb and kill hundreds of thousands of other countries civilians...Iran don't

Iran have the death penalty...the US have the death penalty

Iran's religious zealots kill a LOT of people....the US religious zealots kill some people

Iran treat women disgracefully...women are almost equal in America

etc...

 

So you are saying you think that the USA is as bad (or worse) as Iran?

 

Taliban or IRA?

 

Pirate or Ninja?

 

Mr T or Chuck Norris?

 

We really need a TV show to investigate and tell us the answer.

 

It's a simple question Chris. Is Iran a worse regime than the USA?

 

The fact you think it's a simple question says it all really.

 

Is Iran a worse regime than the USA? Yes or No, Chris.

[Happy Face 29]

Is Iran a worse regime than the USA? Yes or No, Chris.

 

[Fop 1]

Is Iran a worse regime than the USA? Yes or No, Chris.

 

 

That you won't say answers it really.

[The Fish 10872]

No need to apologise. An excellent post that says more in 4 or 5 paragraphs than Fop could in 6 pages.

 

I would say there is fear in the Muslim world that the west does want to wipe them off the map. And actions, not just words, suggest it too. They see Israel continue it's march into Gaza backed by western might, and can't be blamed for drawing that conclusion.

 

That fear you speak of, it's fostered by the regime. They fuel anti-West hatred and fear to shore up their support so they can continue their oppression. I don't believe it's a fear that would live long outside of that regime. If moderates could gain true power, if they could enter talks with confidence that they're not futile parades designed to tick the "progressive" box, then I don't believe for one minute the populous would object.

 

Your average Iranian is not a lunatic, I believe they know the West isn't built out of hatred and malice. John Stewart sent a fella over there and the people he was talking to on the street seemed clued up as to things in the west, they seemed to be the antithesis of the zealots that are shown on news reports burning flags. I believe they have the power to affect a change, but I don't think they have political capital, yet.

 

Bombs aren't going to work, neither are sanctions, but unfortunately we can't have meaningful talks with Ahmedinnerjacket because he's in the pocket of the Ayatollah who isn't exactly going to willingly give up his supreme power. We need a moderate reformist, whose popularity is so unquestionable Khameni cannot be seen to oppose him. But I just can't see it happening.

 

What are the other senior cleris(?), the ones likely to take power after Khameni like? are they progressive or similarily conservative?

[Park Life 71]

I meant the states themselves rather than your average Joe Public.

 

 

See, that's my worry. You have Iran as your enemy, it's not just State Vs State, Soldier vs Soldier; their Javeed Public will also get involved. I'd be expecting suicide attacks from radicals sneaking into this country and also from ex-pats already here. It's a fear I'm quite happy to admit is fuelled by images of moderate Iranians being beaten by their police, tales of their "Moral Police", images of young Iranians burning anything they can get their hands on, in hateful protest against the west and it's while all being run through a western media filter I don't believe it's all fabricated or exaggerated

 

I don't think it's fabricated, I can understand it though. When you have the level of hypocrisy whereby Obama, flanked by Brown can say Iran "is breaking rules that all nations must follow" while continuing to torture detainees to death.

 

And Iran shooting people for protesting against a completely rigged election is "ok"?

 

Not sure where you get that impression.

 

So is Iran a worse regime than the USA?

 

Based on that one criteria?

 

That's a question that invites a 5000 word essay.

 

Iran have rigged elections...The US have rigged elections

Iran torture...the US torture

Iran kill their own citizens for protesting....the US kill their own citizens for protesting

The US bomb and kill hundreds of thousands of other countries civilians...Iran don't

Iran have the death penalty...the US have the death penalty

Iran's religious zealots kill a LOT of people....the US religious zealots kill some people

Iran treat women disgracefully...women are almost equal in America

etc...

 

So you are saying you think that the USA is as bad (or worse) as Iran?

 

Israel is worse than both. Jewish comedy is decent mind.

[The Fish 10872]

Guinea's not much cop either...

[Happy Face 29]

That fear you speak of, it's fostered by the regime. They fuel anti-West hatred and fear to shore up their support so they can continue their oppression. I don't believe it's a fear that would live long outside of that regime. If moderates could gain true power, if they could enter talks with confidence that they're not futile parades designed to tick the "progressive" box, then I don't believe for one minute the populous would object.

 

Your average Iranian is not a lunatic, I believe they know the West isn't built out of hatred and malice. John Stewart sent a fella over there and the people he was talking to on the street seemed clued up as to things in the west, they seemed to be the antithesis of the zealots that are shown on news reports burning flags. I believe they have the power to affect a change, but I don't think they have political capital, yet.

 

Bombs aren't going to work, neither are sanctions, but unfortunately we can't have meaningful talks with Ahmedinnerjacket because he's in the pocket of the Ayatollah who isn't exactly going to willingly give up his supreme power. We need a moderate reformist, whose popularity is so unquestionable Khameni cannot be seen to oppose him. But I just can't see it happening.

 

What are the other senior cleris(?), the ones likely to take power after Khameni like? are they progressive or similarily conservative?

 

I don't think you can lay the blame for the fear at the feet of the Iranian leadership/media when as mentioned Israel have been fully backed in their attemps to wipe out Gaza, and the US are already nation building (badly) in Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

I don't think Iran have taken any comparable action to warrant the fear that the western media and leadership whip up.

[The Fish 10872]

I think there's some double standards, for sure. However, you seem to be saying that Iran is doing nothing wrong, or at least they're the lesser of two evils. I don't buy that, the rhetoric and actions of the state seem to be that of a Nation looking to condemn all that is western and to do so violently.

 

They're stating their new missiles can reach Israel and US Bases nearby... surely that's goading those two? They're flat out saying a ) we have nuclear technology b ) our missiles can hit you...

 

surely it's up to the countries who are moderate to stem the flow of devastating weapons from falling into the hands of the wrong people. By that I don't mean the Iranian state itself, but fanatics who wouldn't think twice about using one. No country should have nuclear arms, but that's not going to happen any time soon, now is it?

 

Other nations have sought equality on a global stage and have done so without threatening to wipe another country off the face of the planet, they've done so without the daily beating of women, they're truly progressive and have incurred none of the furore that accompanies Iran. Look to the far eastern countries, for example, the so called Tiger economies. Nobody is freaking out that Taiwan is stretching it's wings a bit (well... other than China I suppose )

 

but you know where I'm going with this, Iran gets ten tonnes of distrust because there's a good two tonnes of reason to distrust them. Imagine they get the bomb, what happens if a less moderate Supreme Leader comes into power? They're not exactly the life of the party now, what would they be like then? What if because they're now more moderate and have discussions with the old enemies, the far right of the country decide that actually, no, we don't want this, this is dealing with infidels, lets get into positions of power and use one. You and I both know it'd be easier to get access to an Iranian nuke than it would a French or US one.

 

but again, it's not the Iranians, it's the hardliners, it's the far right that have to be appeased and molly coddled into the future, just they we have to drag the right along with us in this country. We have to talk to the Iranians because it's the only thingthat will work, but it's not going to work for a long-ass time.

[Happy Face 29]

I think there's some double standards, for sure. However, you seem to be saying that Iran is doing nothing wrong, or at least they're the lesser of two evils. I don't buy that, the rhetoric and actions of the state seem to be that of a Nation looking to condemn all that is western and to do so violently.

 

They're stating their new missiles can reach Israel and US Bases nearby... surely that's goading those two? They're flat out saying a ) we have nuclear technology b ) our missiles can hit you...

 

surely it's up to the countries who are moderate to stem the flow of devastating weapons from falling into the hands of the wrong people. By that I don't mean the Iranian state itself, but fanatics who wouldn't think twice about using one. No country should have nuclear arms, but that's not going to happen any time soon, now is it?

 

Other nations have sought equality on a global stage and have done so without threatening to wipe another country off the face of the planet, they've done so without the daily beating of women, they're truly progressive and have incurred none of the furore that accompanies Iran. Look to the far eastern countries, for example, the so called Tiger economies. Nobody is freaking out that Taiwan is stretching it's wings a bit (well... other than China I suppose )

 

but you know where I'm going with this, Iran gets ten tonnes of distrust because there's a good two tonnes of reason to distrust them. Imagine they get the bomb, what happens if a less moderate Supreme Leader comes into power? They're not exactly the life of the party now, what would they be like then? What if because they're now more moderate and have discussions with the old enemies, the far right of the country decide that actually, no, we don't want this, this is dealing with infidels, lets get into positions of power and use one. You and I both know it'd be easier to get access to an Iranian nuke than it would a French or US one.

 

but again, it's not the Iranians, it's the hardliners, it's the far right that have to be appeased and molly coddled into the future, just they we have to drag the right along with us in this country. We have to talk to the Iranians because it's the only thingthat will work, but it's not going to work for a long-ass time.

 

I don't think "Iran are doing nothing wrong" I think they're reacting to events rather than shaping them.

 

Israel and the US test their missiles...

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/...le-missile.html

 

http://www.cbs8.com/Global/story.asp?S=10610182

 

...and refer to Iran as the next target....

 

http://www.theage.com.au/world/iran-next-t...75a.html?page=2

 

This, despite the NIE stance (unchanged since 2007) that Iran has no nuclear capability since 2003 and there's no evidence they have since been seeking one...

 

• We assess with moderate confidence Tehran had not restarted its nuclear weapons

program as of mid-2007, but we do not know whether it currently intends to develop

nuclear weapons.

• We continue to assess with moderate-to-high confidence that Iran does not currently

have a nuclear weapon.

• Tehran’s decision to halt its nuclear weapons program suggests it is less determined

to develop nuclear weapons than we have been judging since 2005. Our assessment

that the program probably was halted primarily in response to international pressure

suggests Iran may be more vulnerable to influence on the issue than we judged

previously.

 

http://www.dni.gov/press_releases/20071203_release.pdf

 

Iran have seen defenceless nations like Afghanistan and Iraq annhialated without any justification. I guess Iran don't want to sit back helplessly as those nations did. They still remember the US backed attack of 1980

 

As Juan Cole wrote yesterday...

 

Ali Akbar Salehi, the head of Iran's Atomic Energy Organization, reaffirmed Monday that a date would soon be set for the International Atomic Energy Agency to inspect the planned nuclear enrichment facility near Qom about which the Iranian government informed the IAEA on Monday a week ago.

 

If Iran really does permit full, ongoing IAEA inspections of the facility, then it cannot be used for weapons production. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton admitted Sunday that Iran cannot use the Natanz plant for bomb-making because it is being regularly inspected by the UN.

 

Scott Ritter, an experienced inspector himself, dispels the myths about the new Qom facility and urges against new economic sanctions on Iran as counter-productive. Greater transparency and more inspections should be the demand of the West, he says.

 

And now here's something you won't read in major American newspapers or see on American television.

 

The USG Open Source Center translated remarks to Iranian television of General Hoseyn Salami, commander of the Iranian Revolutionary Guards Air Force concerning Iran's Monday missile tests (Islamic Republic of Iran News Network Television (IRINN), Monday, September 28, 2009):

 

Gen. Salami said, "as long as our enemies act within a political domain, our behavior will be completely political. However, if they want to leave the domain of political action and enter the domain of military threat, then our action will be exactly and completely military."

 

Many Western media reports implied that the missile tests were launched along with threats to wipe out Israel. But note that the commanding officer overseeing them explicitly restated Iran's "no first strike" pledge. To my knowledge, no current high official in the Iranian executive has threatened war against Israel, which in any case would be foolhardy given Israel's nuclear arsenal (see below). Iranian officials do say they hope the "Zionist regime" will collapse as the Soviet Union did.

 

The report also said:

 

Salami said the strategic objective in staging the war game was "to demonstrate the Iranian nation's resolution in defending revolutionary and national values and ideals as well as to make a new attempt to upgrade the level and quality of the Islamic Republic's deterrence against any probable threat given the current political and international atmosphere."

 

Salami linked the tests strongly to Iran's defensive needs and pointed out they came before the anniversary of Iraq's 1980 attack on Iran, which kicked off a highly destructive 8-year war that killed on the order of 250,000 Iranians. (The United States supported Iraq in that war.) The trauma of being invaded by a rapacious enemy at a moment of national weakness after the 1979 revolution has deeply informed Iranian political leaders' views of the world ever since.

 

http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2009/09/29/cole/