Channel Four Now

[bawan 0]

I just don't get why people go to lengths to mourn the American deaths when worse stuff is happening in the world even now.

Because it wasn't just Americans that died.

 

Well not so much just Americans but probably not far off, either way it was indiscriminate murder and I'm in no way defending but contrary to popular belief it's not the worst thing in the world.

 

What's going on in Afghanistan, Iraq and Darfur is in my opinion much much worse but nobody seems to give a toss.

 

It's not just about the deaths or the buildings or the destruction that occured on that date though, it's about how the 9th November has shaped everything that has followed. From the wars in arid desert countries to the increasing curbs on our civil liberties at home, that handful of Muslims with box cutter knifes and a suicidal determination to inflict some pain on the West changed the world in the most catastrophic way.

[The Fish 10779]

It's not so much that as it irritates me, the level of hypocrisy it brings out in people is unreal and I reckon a lot of the time it's just because the media shove it in your face, you're ''supposed'' to commemorate 9/11.

 

I just don't buy into the entire thing.

 

Aye, but just cos I say I feel awful and think 9/11 for horrific, doesn't mean I'm oblivious to the other things

it's just that, right now, at this moment, I'm choosing to think about this particular batch of senseless killings

 

I know what you're trying to say, but I think you've misjudged the audience, as nobody here is thinking the same way as Newspaper owners.

[Monkeys Fist 42129]

I just don't get why people go to lengths to mourn the American deaths when worse stuff is happening in the world even now.

Because it wasn't just Americans that died.

 

Well not so much just Americans but probably not far off, either way it was indiscriminate murder and I'm in no way defending but contrary to popular belief it's not the worst thing in the world.

 

What's going on in Afghanistan, Iraq and Darfur is in my opinion much much worse but nobody seems to give a toss.

I think it's for a number of reasons-this was so well documented, transmitted live around the globe, not as polished news pieces but as it happened.

I will never forget what I was doing when I first heard, and watching this programme has reminded me of the feelings I experienced that day.

It also, like 7/7, was "close to home", it's context was easy to relate to forillions of people

Afghanistan,Iraq etc doesn't have the same immedeacy or impact.

I agree that on a pure body count, more have died on these countries, just commenting on the relevance of this programme.

Btw, it's a fascinating piece of social documentary- The couple who are filming from their apartment and keep telling their young daughter to "go play in the other room, nothings wrong".

[Holden McGroin 6544]

I think this is kind of missing the point isn't it?

 

You don't suddenly stop mourning one loss because worse things are happening elsewhere.

 

You're supposed to mourn all loss, you're supposed to remember every tragedy.

 

 

 

Saying "I don't see why we should mourn a, because nobodies mourning b" is pointless and is only ever going to cause division and argument.

 

It's not so much that as it irritates me, the level of hypocrisy it brings out in people is unreal and I reckon a lot of the time it's just because the media shove it in your face, you're ''supposed'' to commemorate 9/11.

 

I just don't buy into the entire thing.

 

The reason its media-popular is because we've never seen any terrorist attack of his magnitude in history and hopefully never will again. Regardless of the retribution sought, it was an absolutely cowardly act.

[Tom 14011]

It's not so much that as it irritates me, the level of hypocrisy it brings out in people is unreal and I reckon a lot of the time it's just because the media shove it in your face, you're ''supposed'' to commemorate 9/11.

 

I just don't buy into the entire thing.

 

Aye, but just cos I say I feel awful and think 9/11 for horrific, doesn't mean I'm oblivious to the other things

it's just that, right now, at this moment, I'm choosing to think about this particular batch of senseless killings

 

I know what you're trying to say, but I think you've misjudged the audience, as nobody here is thinking the same way as Newspaper owners.

 

Well you know it just seems like people get bullied into feeling something.

 

I have felt bad before for 9/11, like when it happened and maybe the year after but I'm not going to feel bad for it now.

[Guest Stevie]

I think this is kind of missing the point isn't it?

 

You don't suddenly stop mourning one loss because worse things are happening elsewhere.

 

You're supposed to mourn all loss, you're supposed to remember every tragedy.

 

 

 

Saying "I don't see why we should mourn a, because nobodies mourning b" is pointless and is only ever going to cause division and argument.

 

It's not so much that as it irritates me, the level of hypocrisy it brings out in people is unreal and I reckon a lot of the time it's just because the media shove it in your face, you're ''supposed'' to commemorate 9/11.

 

I just don't buy into the entire thing.

Even from a British point of view, I think it deserves commemorating. 300 English, Jocks, and Welsh died that day, when was the last 300 died in one go. Was a sad day for my country from a nationalistic point of view. 96 people died at Hillsborough and that left a similar miriad of unanswered questions, but just because we might offend the more radical muslims in this country who are seeing pain and suffering on streets in places like Kabul at the perceived hands of the "west", we common people in the street are not allowed to remember the 300 British men and women who died a death in the space of an hour??

[The Fish 10779]

Well you know it just seems like people get bullied into feeling something.

 

I have felt bad before for 9/11, like when it happened and maybe the year after but I'm not going to feel bad for it now.

 

No one is expecting to wail and rub gravel through your hair, but understand that this wound hasn't healed for a great number of people. People who feel more anger than loss.

 

Also, the obvious explanation is because, rightly or wrongly, people know more about this tragedy.

 

 

I still would concentrate on raising the profile of those, rather than try to diminish this.

[Tom 14011]

It's not about who offends who really, I can't imagine many devout Muslims getting offended by the mourning of 9/11 and I'm not saying you shouldn't mourn it it's just often over done.

 

The worst thing about 9/11 wasn't the day itself but what followed, be that at the hands of the west or not.

[bawan 0]

I bet if I said Halabja it wouldn't mean anything to about 95% of people on this forum, and it would probs be the same to the rest of the world.

Edited September 7, 2009 by bawan

[Ketsbaia 0]

It's not about who offends who really, I can't imagine many devout Muslims getting offended by the mourning of 9/11 and I'm not saying you shouldn't mourn it it's just often over done.

 

The worst thing about 9/11 wasn't the day itself but what followed, be that at the hands of the west or not.

 

 

How can we forget Rob's wail?

 

"DIANAAAAAAAA!!!"

[Ketsbaia 0]

I bet if I said Halabja it wouldn't mean anything to about 95% of people on this forum, and it would probs be the same to the rest of the world.

 

I think you're underestimating the knowledge of a lot of people on here. It was a horrible, horrible tragedy and whoever done it - whether it was Saddam or the Iranian's should be locked up for a long time.

 

I'm not going to say any more as I really don't think a game of Tragedy Top Trumps is very tasteful.

[Tom 14011]

I bet if I said Halabja it wouldn't mean anything to about 95% of people on this forum, and it would probs be the same to the rest of the world.

 

I'm sure most people would understand - especially in context.

[bawan 0]

I bet if I said Halabja it wouldn't mean anything to about 95% of people on this forum, and it would probs be the same to the rest of the world.

 

I think you're underestimating the knowledge of a lot of people on here. It was a horrible, horrible tragedy and whoever done it - whether it was Saddam or the Iranian's should be locked up for a long time.

 

I'm not going to say any more as I really don't think a game of Tragedy Top Trumps is very tasteful.

Neither do I tbh.

 

I was just trying to back up Tom's point that 9/11 is a bit over reacted by people, now am not saying it shouldn't be remembered because that would be wrong of me and of anyone who says such a thing, a lot of innocent people died that day and for no reason what so ever. But you don't see people remembering Halabja like they remember 9/11

[The Fish 10779]

I bet if I said Halabja it wouldn't mean anything to about 95% of people on this forum, and it would probs be the same to the rest of the world.

 

no, but if you said the Gas attacks in the Iran-Iraq conflict, I'm guessing people would remember the images of corpses in the street.. they just couldn't tell you the name of the place it happened. I had to google it to make sure.

[Monkeys Fist 42129]

I bet if I said Halabja it wouldn't mean anything to about 95% of people on this forum, and it would probs be the same to the rest of the world.

Auschwitz

Ypres

Gallipoli

 

all gassed mate. All terrible.

Don't really see the point you're making in the context of this post tho?

[bawan 0]

I bet if I said Halabja it wouldn't mean anything to about 95% of people on this forum, and it would probs be the same to the rest of the world.

Auschwitz

Ypres

Gallipoli

 

all gassed mate. All terrible.

Don't really see the point you're making in the context of this post tho?

What I replied to Ketsbaia

[Monkeys Fist 42129]

I bet if I said Halabja it wouldn't mean anything to about 95% of people on this forum, and it would probs be the same to the rest of the world.

Auschwitz

Ypres

Gallipoli

 

all gassed mate. All terrible.

Don't really see the point you're making in the context of this post tho?

…err scrub Gallipoli from that

you get my point tho

[Guest Stevie]

It just shows to me what a weak country we've become when our own people are questioning the merits annually remembering the deaths in a really big event in the context of this country never mind America, and it's not a lone view.

 

150,000 people dying in Iraq, and how many were directly at the hands of British/Yank forces? I bet at least half were the result of insurgents and sectarianism, but we opened the can of worms and we should accept some responsibility even if truthfully we went in there with the best of intentions. It's irrelevant that to be fair to this thread. Maybe we were sold a lie to go in there, but there were at least some positives to come out of it, and for me we were bigger cunts for not doing anything in Rwanda 15 years ago, than going in to Iraq. It's just certain peoples in this world have greater influence, greater significance, greater attacking force, and greater propaganda skills, and a greater will to cause mass damage. Human beings are human beings, we had the power to do something in Rwanda, the yanks certainly do, the Russians and the chinks do and we did fuck all, because no one give a fuck, people might say it's because there's nothing of value there, but we owe a greater debt to those people and the ones in Cambodia than we ever will to anyone else in my view.

Edited September 7, 2009 by Stevie

[Happy Face 29]

150'000 Iraqi's died slightly nastier deaths.

So fuck, does that diminish the memory of 3000 who died in New York. Although the Iraqi deaths were obviously bad too, it's in bad taste mentioning it in this thread.

 

What were you alluding to when you said "so many questions, so few answers". Genuine question.

[Monkeys Fist 42129]

It just shows to me what a weak country we've become when our own people are questioning the merits of a really big event in the context of this country never mind America, and it's not a lone view.

 

150,000 people dying in Iraq, and how many were directly at the hands of British/Yank forces? I bet at least half were the result of insurgents and sectarianism, but we opened the can of worms and we should accept some responsibility even if truthfully we went in there with the best of intentions. It's irrelevant that to be fair to this thread. Maybe we were sold a lie to go in there, but there were at least some positives to come out of it, and for me we were bigger cunts for not doing anything in Rwanda 15 years ago, than going in to Iraq. It's just certain peoples in this world have greater influence, greater significance, greater attacking force, and greater propaganda skills, and a greater will to cause mass damage. Human beings are human beings, we had the power to do something in Rwanda, the yanks certainly do, the Russians and the chinks do and we did fuck all, because no one give a fuck, people might say it's because there's nothing of value there, but we owe a greater debt to those people and the ones in Cambodia than we ever will to any fuckin muslim.

You had me, until the last 6 words

[Happy Face 29]

150,000 people dying in Iraq, and how many were directly at the hands of British/Yank forces?

 

We were directly responsible for twice as many deaths than 9/11 in less than a week at the start of the invasion with shock and awe.

Edited September 7, 2009 by Happy Face

[Guest Stevie]

150'000 Iraqi's died slightly nastier deaths.

So fuck, does that diminish the memory of 3000 who died in New York. Although the Iraqi deaths were obviously bad too, it's in bad taste mentioning it in this thread.

 

What were you alluding to when you said "so many questions, so few answers". Genuine question.

I was alluding to the fact no one definitively knows 100% without question why it happened. 99% of conspiracy theories can easily be dismissed, maybe this one can too, but there is a lot of aspects of the final report that were ambiguous to say the least.

[Tom 14011]

It just shows to me what a weak country we've become when our own people are questioning the merits annually remembering the deaths in a really big event in the context of this country never mind America, and it's not a lone view.

 

150,000 people dying in Iraq, and how many were directly at the hands of British/Yank forces? I bet at least half were the result of insurgents and sectarianism, but we opened the can of worms and we should accept some responsibility even if truthfully we went in there with the best of intentions. It's irrelevant that to be fair to this thread. Maybe we were sold a lie to go in there, but there were at least some positives to come out of it, and for me we were bigger cunts for not doing anything in Rwanda 15 years ago, than going in to Iraq. It's just certain peoples in this world have greater influence, greater significance, greater attacking force, and greater propaganda skills, and a greater will to cause mass damage. Human beings are human beings, we had the power to do something in Rwanda, the yanks certainly do, the Russians and the chinks do and we did fuck all, because no one give a fuck, people might say it's because there's nothing of value there, but we owe a greater debt to those people and the ones in Cambodia than we ever will to any fuckin muslim.

 

What about the platoons of British-Indian Muslims who fought for Britain in WW1 when we hadn't a properly trained army and the lines were weak. Without them we would have been fucked. 573,000 of them - mostly Muslims.

 

Whom also fought in the second world war and held Ramadan and said communal prayers for the King. A lot of them were also volunteers whom arguably we owe for the fact we took their country off them.

[Monkeys Fist 42129]

150'000 Iraqi's died slightly nastier deaths.

So fuck, does that diminish the memory of 3000 who died in New York. Although the Iraqi deaths were obviously bad too, it's in bad taste mentioning it in this thread.

 

What were you alluding to when you said "so many questions, so few answers". Genuine question.

I was alluding to the fact no one definitively knows 100% without question why it happened. 99% of conspiracy theories can easily be dismissed, maybe this one can too, but there is a lot of aspects of the final report that were ambiguous to say the least.

Prepare to be Fopped.

[bawan 0]

It just shows to me what a weak country we've become when our own people are questioning the merits of a really big event in the context of this country never mind America, and it's not a lone view.

 

150,000 people dying in Iraq, and how many were directly at the hands of British/Yank forces? I bet at least half were the result of insurgents and sectarianism, but we opened the can of worms and we should accept some responsibility even if truthfully we went in there with the best of intentions. It's irrelevant that to be fair to this thread. Maybe we were sold a lie to go in there, but there were at least some positives to come out of it, and for me we were bigger cunts for not doing anything in Rwanda 15 years ago, than going in to Iraq. It's just certain peoples in this world have greater influence, greater significance, greater attacking force, and greater propaganda skills, and a greater will to cause mass damage. Human beings are human beings, we had the power to do something in Rwanda, the yanks certainly do, the Russians and the chinks do and we did fuck all, because no one give a fuck, people might say it's because there's nothing of value there, but we owe a greater debt to those people and the ones in Cambodia than we ever will to any fuckin muslim.

You had me, until the last 6 words

+1