Evolution suffers Kansas setback

[adios 717]

I think religion was originally a way of explaining things that couldn't be explained by science in ancient times (i.e. natural disasters, the chaning of the seasons etc.) I've never really bought into it, even as a small child. That said, I think it's harmless enough so long as people who are of a certain religion respect the views of people who aren't. I do find it a fascinating subject though, especially when you look at the historical events that shaped the beliefs we have in the world today.

54800[/snapback]

 

Aye religion's harmless enough. Stick to the one sentence or less policy.

 

For the record if God did exist it'd probably be a black woman, probably Oprah Winfrey in fact, but it doesn't so there.

[Guest alex]

Patmos is the Greek island where St John had the Book of Revelations revealed to him by God through a crack in the roof of a cave. Or so he reckoned

[Renton 21627]

I think religion was originally a way of explaining things that couldn't be explained by science in ancient times (i.e. natural disasters, the chaning of the seasons etc.) I've never really bought into it, even as a small child. That said, I think it's harmless enough so long as people who are of a certain religion respect the views of people who aren't. I do find it a fascinating subject though, especially when you look at the historical events that shaped the beliefs we have in the world today.

54800[/snapback]

 

 

And there in lies the problem. And why I despise the fundamentalists on all sides - especially the muslim, jewish and christian zealots who are currently fucking up the world.

[ChocChip 0]

[/i]The problem i think is that when someone says i believe in God and he created everything, everyone pictures of baby Jesus and The Spanish Inquisition and all the Religious wars or the down right bizarre ideas that all white people were created by an evil black scientist and pretty soon a spaceship will come and take all us good, righteous brothers and sisters back to Planet X, etc.

 

As a quick aside, were an ethnic person claim to believe in God and they were shouted down and ridiculed it would be said to be cultural intolerance/imperialism but if a western person declares a religious belief they're fair game for all sorts of dissmissive comments and and sarcasm as if they were somehow meant to know better and treated like some kind of social pariah at parties, etc. It's as if the other 'savages' are quite entitled to amuse themselves with these fancy notions. This is my observation of life in general and in no way related to comments on this board.

 

The idea to me that there is some intelligent agent at work with the universe creation makes more sense than the idea that everything is as it is by many, many acts of chance. The idea of the big bang would appear logical, what initiated the big bang? Where did the energy come from to spark the process? Was it a previous collapse? If so, what started the big bang before this one then? How did the matter come to be ther in the first place?  Ad infinitum. Someone said that there are evolutioary theories to explain our doubts on evolution, what theories explain every culture's belief in Gods/Deities? Surely such a thought process is counter-productive if it leads one to believe that praying to a rock will help you more than actually dealing/accepting the problem at hand. What the hell kind of gene is that? Why does every (i think) human society have beliefs in 'higher powers' either currently or at some point in their history? Such a thought process would appear to me to be contrary to survival. As does a system of morality. If we animals like everything else then there is no wrong in stealing, lying, cheating, beating, raping and murdering if it makes a life easier and aids the spread of our genes. These things happen, quite a lot actually, and yet why are they disapproved of? If it happens to us, we won't like it, if it happens to someone else, surely that can only help our position because it has made a rival for resources and breeding mates weaker which would be a good thing.

 

The fact that their are ideas of 'God' is very poignant imo. As to the nature of said entity, i have no idea. There is a lack of evidence and yet maybe the structure and beautiful but apparent coincidence of so many events to make the universe we live in will always beg the question, could it be possible that something other than chance has influenced what we see around us?

 

I repeat i am not in any way scientifically hejamucated, just a simple street hustler and these are my occasional muses betwixt crack binges which i humbly submit before my betters on here 

54784[/snapback]

 

 

You make some interesting points. The fact that all socieities have a belief in God does not in any way prove that God exists. We have evolved to a social being whose survival depends on mutual co-operation. God is a man-made concept to get people to tow the line - look at the religious rules like don't eat pork - these were all practical advice at the time they were written (although interestingly not all apply now). Also factor in human's terrible fear of death and its not hard to see how the concept of God and heaven arose.

 

I think part of the problem is that human beings have a perception that many unlikely co-incidences would have been necessary to form the world we live in. Not at all, in fact there is no other way it could have happened. The fact we are here to observe the universe means that conditions had to be just right - I think this is called the anthropomorphic principal or something. Once the first living cell was formed, the rest was really inevitable I think.

 

As for the big bang and what created or preceded it, who knows? But to have faith that some kind of higher power with a human-like intelligence or benevolence was behind it is pretty absurd in my book. Anyway, the physicists will have this one sussed in a few decades, removing the need for God completely. What place for God and the Church then?

54792[/snapback]

 

Right there i think you've fallen into the trap, they are typically Judeo-Christian images and ideas that you have been influenced by. You imply judgement and redemption, you call it 'human-like' one thing i sure hope it isn't

 

If everything is exactly how it should be, and i presume that goes down to the molecular level, are you not then suggesting some kind of pre-determinism? A lack of free will? Or are we, just the humans, somehow exempt? Doesn't this pre-coding of everything being the only way it could be start suggesting something to you?

[ChocChip 0]

I think religion was originally a way of explaining things that couldn't be explained by science in ancient times (i.e. natural disasters, the chaning of the seasons etc.) I've never really bought into it, even as a small child. That said, I think it's harmless enough so long as people who are of a certain religion respect the views of people who aren't. I do find it a fascinating subject though, especially when you look at the historical events that shaped the beliefs we have in the world today.

54800[/snapback]

 

 

And there in lies the problem. And why I despise the fundamentalists on all sides - especially the muslim, jewish and christian zealots who are currently fucking up the world.

54806[/snapback]

 

And the Buddhist's in Sri Lanka, wouldn't want any of the many middle class new recruits who buy into the idea that Buddhism has never started any trouble be mis-informed on that one.

[sweetleftpeg 0]

You look at all the wars over history and the troubles still going on today and how it basically comes down to people arguing other who's book is right. I think Delia Smith and Gary Rhodes should have a fight to the death over who's Chicken Casserole recipe is da bomb.

[adios 717]

Right there i think you've fallen into the trap, they are typically Judeo-Christian images and ideas that you have been influenced by. You imply judgement and redemption, you call it 'human-like' one thing i sure hope it isn't 

 

If everything is exactly how it should be, and i presume that goes down to the molecular level, are you not then suggesting some kind of pre-determinism? A lack of free will? Or are we, just the humans, somehow exempt? Doesn't this pre-coding of everything being the only way it could be start suggesting something to you?

54808[/snapback]

 

You need to read up on evolution.

Edited November 10, 2005 by DotBum

[Renton 21627]

[/i]The problem i think is that when someone says i believe in God and he created everything, everyone pictures of baby Jesus and The Spanish Inquisition and all the Religious wars or the down right bizarre ideas that all white people were created by an evil black scientist and pretty soon a spaceship will come and take all us good, righteous brothers and sisters back to Planet X, etc.

 

As a quick aside, were an ethnic person claim to believe in God and they were shouted down and ridiculed it would be said to be cultural intolerance/imperialism but if a western person declares a religious belief they're fair game for all sorts of dissmissive comments and and sarcasm as if they were somehow meant to know better and treated like some kind of social pariah at parties, etc. It's as if the other 'savages' are quite entitled to amuse themselves with these fancy notions. This is my observation of life in general and in no way related to comments on this board.

 

The idea to me that there is some intelligent agent at work with the universe creation makes more sense than the idea that everything is as it is by many, many acts of chance. The idea of the big bang would appear logical, what initiated the big bang? Where did the energy come from to spark the process? Was it a previous collapse? If so, what started the big bang before this one then? How did the matter come to be ther in the first place?  Ad infinitum. Someone said that there are evolutioary theories to explain our doubts on evolution, what theories explain every culture's belief in Gods/Deities? Surely such a thought process is counter-productive if it leads one to believe that praying to a rock will help you more than actually dealing/accepting the problem at hand. What the hell kind of gene is that? Why does every (i think) human society have beliefs in 'higher powers' either currently or at some point in their history? Such a thought process would appear to me to be contrary to survival. As does a system of morality. If we animals like everything else then there is no wrong in stealing, lying, cheating, beating, raping and murdering if it makes a life easier and aids the spread of our genes. These things happen, quite a lot actually, and yet why are they disapproved of? If it happens to us, we won't like it, if it happens to someone else, surely that can only help our position because it has made a rival for resources and breeding mates weaker which would be a good thing.

 

The fact that their are ideas of 'God' is very poignant imo. As to the nature of said entity, i have no idea. There is a lack of evidence and yet maybe the structure and beautiful but apparent coincidence of so many events to make the universe we live in will always beg the question, could it be possible that something other than chance has influenced what we see around us?

 

I repeat i am not in any way scientifically hejamucated, just a simple street hustler and these are my occasional muses betwixt crack binges which i humbly submit before my betters on here 

54784[/snapback]

 

 

You make some interesting points. The fact that all socieities have a belief in God does not in any way prove that God exists. We have evolved to a social being whose survival depends on mutual co-operation. God is a man-made concept to get people to tow the line - look at the religious rules like don't eat pork - these were all practical advice at the time they were written (although interestingly not all apply now). Also factor in human's terrible fear of death and its not hard to see how the concept of God and heaven arose.

 

I think part of the problem is that human beings have a perception that many unlikely co-incidences would have been necessary to form the world we live in. Not at all, in fact there is no other way it could have happened. The fact we are here to observe the universe means that conditions had to be just right - I think this is called the anthropomorphic principal or something. Once the first living cell was formed, the rest was really inevitable I think.

 

As for the big bang and what created or preceded it, who knows? But to have faith that some kind of higher power with a human-like intelligence or benevolence was behind it is pretty absurd in my book. Anyway, the physicists will have this one sussed in a few decades, removing the need for God completely. What place for God and the Church then?

54792[/snapback]

 

Right there i think you've fallen into the trap, they are typically Judeo-Christian images and ideas that you have been influenced by. You imply judgement and redemption, you call it 'human-like' one thing i sure hope it isn't

 

If everything is exactly how it should be, and i presume that goes down to the molecular level, are you not then suggesting some kind of pre-determinism? A lack of free will? Or are we, just the humans, somehow exempt? Doesn't this pre-coding of everything being the only way it could be start suggesting something to you?

54808[/snapback]

 

Well, perhaps if you are more clear on what you mean by the concept of God it would be useful. If he isn't an old man sitting on a cloud, what is he? Perhaps he's merely the fundamental laws of physics.

 

I don't believe in pre-determinism, because there is far too much random chaos in the world to predict anything prospectively. One way or another I think intelligent, sentient beings would have evolved, but they didn't have to be human beings, for instance. But for a random event, we could all be lizards having this discussion.

 

But what I meant was, it is true that several physical variables had to be exactly right in order for us to exist. For instance, the gravitational constant, the weak nuclear force, even the properties of water. The list is endless. Many people have argued this is proof of an intelligent design and creator. But to me, it is proof we live in a Universe that can support us - possibly one of an infinite number. Now infinite universes - that is a head fuck!

[Guest alex]

You look at all the wars over history and the troubles still going on today and how it basically comes down to people arguing other who's book is right. I think Delia Smith and Gary Rhodes should have a fight to the death over who's Chicken Casserole recipe is da bomb.

54811[/snapback]

Although it does cause a lot of problems in the world and has in the past, it's also true that religion was often just an excuse. If you take the example of the rise of Protestantism in what is now Germany, it was more a case of the heads of state wanting political indepedence from the Holy Roman Emperor than believing Catholicism was flawed.

[sweetleftpeg 0]

You look at all the wars over history and the troubles still going on today and how it basically comes down to people arguing other who's book is right. I think Delia Smith and Gary Rhodes should have a fight to the death over who's Chicken Casserole recipe is da bomb.

54811[/snapback]

Although it does cause a lot of problems in the world and has in the past, it's also true that religion was often just an excuse. If you take the example of the rise of Protestantism in what is now Germany, it was more a case of the heads of state wanting political indepedence from the Holy Roman Emperor than believing Catholicism was flawed.

54817[/snapback]

 

Yes, but who does have the better chicken casserole?

[ChocChip 0]

Right there i think you've fallen into the trap, they are typically Judeo-Christian images and ideas that you have been influenced by. You imply judgement and redemption, you call it 'human-like' one thing i sure hope it isn't 

 

If everything is exactly how it should be, and i presume that goes down to the molecular level, are you not then suggesting some kind of pre-determinism? A lack of free will? Or are we, just the humans, somehow exempt? Doesn't this pre-coding of everything being the only way it could be start suggesting something to you?

54808[/snapback]

 

You need to read up on evolution.

54812[/snapback]

 

Man, there are a lot of things i need to read up on and even then, just because i've read a few books i wouldn't claim to be an authority. I can only comment on what little i can understand from what i see and what i think about (occasionaly) and then post an opinion. It's only my view, i wouldn't for one minute think i can change someone else's. Also i feel very free to change my mind if something impresses my limited perspective.

[Guest alex]

F.Jesus

From various sources, we find that according the Nation of Islam, Jesus was:

-only a mortal man and a prophet, not God (Muhammad, Our Savior, 195),

-a black man who tried to redeem the black Moabites and was executed by the white Romans,

-a Muslim, not a Christian (Muhammad, Message, 22), and

-He did not rise from the dead (Muhammad, Our Savior, 195, 210).

54798[/snapback]

I would agree Jesus wasn't a Christian, it's hard to be a follower of one's self after all. I think he was probably Jewish though

[Renton 21627]

I think religion was originally a way of explaining things that couldn't be explained by science in ancient times (i.e. natural disasters, the chaning of the seasons etc.) I've never really bought into it, even as a small child. That said, I think it's harmless enough so long as people who are of a certain religion respect the views of people who aren't. I do find it a fascinating subject though, especially when you look at the historical events that shaped the beliefs we have in the world today.

54800[/snapback]

 

 

And there in lies the problem. And why I despise the fundamentalists on all sides - especially the muslim, jewish and christian zealots who are currently fucking up the world.

54806[/snapback]

 

And the Buddhist's in Sri Lanka, wouldn't want any of the many middle class new recruits who buy into the idea that Buddhism has never started any trouble be mis-informed on that one.

54810[/snapback]

 

Somehow I feel more threatened by fundamental christians and muslims than buddhists at the moment, but I take your point.

[Guest alex]

You look at all the wars over history and the troubles still going on today and how it basically comes down to people arguing other who's book is right. I think Delia Smith and Gary Rhodes should have a fight to the death over who's Chicken Casserole recipe is da bomb.

54811[/snapback]

Although it does cause a lot of problems in the world and has in the past, it's also true that religion was often just an excuse. If you take the example of the rise of Protestantism in what is now Germany, it was more a case of the heads of state wanting political indepedence from the Holy Roman Emperor than believing Catholicism was flawed.

54817[/snapback]

 

Yes, but who does have the better chicken casserole?

54818[/snapback]

Delia

[Renton 21627]

F.Jesus

From various sources, we find that according the Nation of Islam, Jesus was:

-only a mortal man and a prophet, not God (Muhammad, Our Savior, 195),

-a black man who tried to redeem the black Moabites and was executed by the white Romans,

-a Muslim, not a Christian (Muhammad, Message, 22), and

-He did not rise from the dead (Muhammad, Our Savior, 195, 210).

54798[/snapback]

I would agree Jesus wasn't a Christian, it's hard to be a follower of one's self after all. I think he was probably Jewish though

54820[/snapback]

 

 

Forgive my ignorance, but wasn't the religion of islam formed in 700 AD or thereabouts?

[adios 717]

Man, there are a lot of things i need to read up on and even then, just because i've read a few books i wouldn't claim to be an authority. I can only comment on what little i can understand from what i see and what i think about (occasionaly) and then post an opinion. It's only my view, i wouldn't for one minute think i can change someone else's. Also i feel very free to change my mind if something impresses my limited perspective.

54819[/snapback]

 

We all need to read up on a lot of things. It wasn't a dig, I could answer your questions in a very long post but I think one authoritative source on the subject would clear a lot of things up for you.

[Guest alex]

F.Jesus

From various sources, we find that according the Nation of Islam, Jesus was:

-only a mortal man and a prophet, not God (Muhammad, Our Savior, 195),

-a black man who tried to redeem the black Moabites and was executed by the white Romans,

-a Muslim, not a Christian (Muhammad, Message, 22), and

-He did not rise from the dead (Muhammad, Our Savior, 195, 210).

54798[/snapback]

I would agree Jesus wasn't a Christian, it's hard to be a follower of one's self after all. I think he was probably Jewish though

54820[/snapback]

 

 

Forgive my ignorance, but wasn't the religion of islam formed in 700 AD or thereabouts?

54823[/snapback]

Aye, ahead of his time that Jesus bloke

[Renton 21627]

You look at all the wars over history and the troubles still going on today and how it basically comes down to people arguing other who's book is right. I think Delia Smith and Gary Rhodes should have a fight to the death over who's Chicken Casserole recipe is da bomb.

54811[/snapback]

Although it does cause a lot of problems in the world and has in the past, it's also true that religion was often just an excuse. If you take the example of the rise of Protestantism in what is now Germany, it was more a case of the heads of state wanting political indepedence from the Holy Roman Emperor than believing Catholicism was flawed.

54817[/snapback]

 

Yes, but who does have the better chicken casserole?

54818[/snapback]

Delia

54822[/snapback]

 

Gordon's the man though. He would kick all the others' ass. Yo!

[adios 717]

Well, perhaps if you are more clear on what you mean by the concept of God it would be useful. If he isn't an old man sitting on a cloud, what is he? Perhaps he's merely the fundamental laws of physics.

 

I don't believe in pre-determinism, because there is far too much random chaos in the world to predict anything prospectively. One way or another I think intelligent, sentient beings would have evolved, but they didn't have to be human beings, for instance. But for a random event, we could all be lizards having this discussion.

 

But what I meant was, it is true that several physical variables had to be exactly right in order for us to exist. For instance, the gravitational constant, the weak nuclear force, even the properties of water. The list is endless. Many people have argued this is proof of an intelligent design and creator. But to me, it is proof we live in a Universe that can support us - possibly one of an infinite number. Now infinite universes - that is a head fuck! 

54816[/snapback]

 

Fuck me, it's David Icke.

[Renton 21627]

Man, there are a lot of things i need to read up on and even then, just because i've read a few books i wouldn't claim to be an authority. I can only comment on what little i can understand from what i see and what i think about (occasionaly) and then post an opinion. It's only my view, i wouldn't for one minute think i can change someone else's. Also i feel very free to change my mind if something impresses my limited perspective.

54819[/snapback]

 

We all need to read up on a lot of things. It wasn't a dig, I could answer your questions in a very long post but I think one authoritative source on the subject would clear a lot of things up for you.

54824[/snapback]

 

 

Well, that's the problem with message boards. Far too many people speaking total cobblers (myself included)! Especially Alex.

[Guest alex]

Man, there are a lot of things i need to read up on and even then, just because i've read a few books i wouldn't claim to be an authority. I can only comment on what little i can understand from what i see and what i think about (occasionaly) and then post an opinion. It's only my view, i wouldn't for one minute think i can change someone else's. Also i feel very free to change my mind if something impresses my limited perspective.

54819[/snapback]

 

We all need to read up on a lot of things. It wasn't a dig, I could answer your questions in a very long post but I think one authoritative source on the subject would clear a lot of things up for you.

54824[/snapback]

 

 

Well, that's the problem with message boards. Far too many people speaking total cobblers (myself included)! Especially Alex.

54828[/snapback]

I don't dress it up as anything other than that tbh

 

[adios 717]

Well, that's the problem with message boards. Far too many people speaking total cobblers (myself included)! Especially Alex.

54828[/snapback]

 

So you've finally come around on the Robert issue then?

[ChocChip 0]

How many theories throughout history have been accepted as fact only to be destroyed by a new body of evidence. Every age believes that it's version of events is the truth and that which went before was a simple view based on the limited evidence and means of perception. In 500 years from now who's to say that your view and mine maybe regarding as nothing more than understandable but flawed overly simple or overly complicated view of reality, which in fact bears little or no resemblence to what they believe now....er....then...whatever, you know what i mean.

 

What does you intuition tell you? Listen to your soul, your spirit and sure enough the teachings of Elijah Muhammed will begin to have resonance with you and you will realise you are nothing but evil creations of Yacub................wait, look, it's THE MOTHERSHIP.

[manc-mag 1]

How many theories throughout history have been accepted as fact only to be destroyed by a new body of evidence. Every age believes that it's version of events is the truth and that which went before was a simple view based on the limited evidence and means of perception. In 500 years from now who's to say that your view and mine maybe regarding as nothing more than understandable but flawed overly simple or overly complicated view of reality, which in fact bears little or no resemblence to what they believe now....er....then...whatever, you know what i mean.

 

What does you intuition tell you? Listen to your soul, your spirit and sure enough the teachings of Elijah Muhammed will begin to have resonance with you and you will realise you are nothing but evil creations of Yacub................wait, look, it's THE MOTHERSHIP.

54831[/snapback]

 

Is that an 'Outhere Brothers' track?

[manc-mag 1]

Sorry, I just wanted the 100th post.