'US drone' hits Pakistan

[The Fish 10972]

Can't imagine the poor bugger has much chance, even if they claim he's alive for months/years after they've actually beheaded him.

 

He'll be the poster child for a Taliban "victory", regardless of any tangible victory for the US forces.*

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*as close to a victory as one can hope for in what is a fruitless, thankless task.

[Rob W 0]

No-one seems to be able to say just why we're there - other than they were mates with Osama and they Taliban are a particularly un western group of people.....

 

pull out and just ship arms to whoever wants them in Afghanistan - they'll fight each other for years................

[Park Life 71]

No-one seems to be able to say just why we're there - other than they were mates with Osama and they Taliban are a particularly un western group of people.....

 

pull out and just ship arms to whoever wants them in Afghanistan - they'll fight each other for years................

 

Yup.

 

Make cash not war.

[Rob W 0]

I saw a quote from an Italian Condotierri in the 100 years War

 

"Three things are required for success in warfare - money, money and more money"

[Fop 1]

I saw a quote from an Italian Condotierri in the 100 years War

 

"Three things are required for success in warfare - money, money and more money"

 

Business is war, war is business. (incoming U.S.)

[Fop 1]

Another one:

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/8139739.stm

[Guest alex]

I saw a quote from an Italian Condotierri in the 100 years War

 

"Three things are required for success in warfare - money, money and more money"

"War is stupid and people are stupid" - Boy George.

[Rob W 0]

more lads killed yesterday...............

[Park Life 71]

We're completely wasting our time and the lives of young men in Afghanistan.

[sniffer 0]

You'll be quoting gary glitter next, alex.

[Fop 1]

EU mulls Afghan stability plans

 

Nato soldiers approach an Afghan family

Countryside projects could boost economic recovery

 

European ministers are expected to use a summit to discuss ways to promote stability in Afghanistan by focusing on civilian reconstruction.

 

The meeting, in Sweden, comes one day after Nato said civilians were likely to be among up to 90 people killed in an air strike in Afghanistan's north.

 

A number of ministers have called for a quick inquiry, and the US has expressed "great concern" at the incident.

 

Afghan President Hamid Karzai said targeting civilians was "unacceptable".

 

Both Nato and the Afghan president have pledged to hold investigations into the air strike.

 

German troops called in the raid after Taliban rebels hijacked two fuel tankers in the northern province of Kunduz.

 

 

Have Your Say

 

We seem to be there because no one has the political courage to say it's time we came out.

 

David Hazel, Birmingham, UK

Read more of your comments

 

Nato said many Taliban insurgents who had taken the tankers were killed but it admitted it had reports of many civilian casualties.

 

The Nato-led forces in Afghanistan said they regretted "any unnecessary loss of human life".

 

A statement from Mr Karzai's office said the president expressed "deep sorrow for the loss of our compatriots" and "emphasised that innocent civilians must not be killed or wounded during military operations".

 

Drug eradication

 

As EU foreign ministers gathered for Saturday's meeting, there were fears that the deadly air strike risked undermining the credibility of the international presence in Afghanistan, reports the BBC's Oana Lungescu, in Stockholm.

 

No-one in the EU is talking about an exit strategy, but all insist that insecurity cannot be addressed by military means alone, our correspondent adds.

 

 

Site of the tanker strike in Kunduz province

The tanker air strike killed at least 90 people

 

Italian Foreign Minister Franco Frattini said the EU had to promote economic growth through projects in the countryside to replace drug trafficking and the cultivation of opium poppies.

 

Also high on the ministers' priority list is the training of new security forces. The EU has around 400 police trainers in Afghanistan and has promised to double that, but deployment has been slow.

 

The EU, like other international donors, is closely watching the vote count in the presidential election, marred by serious fraud allegations, our correspondent says.

 

A further tranche of official results are due to be released on Saturday.

 

With ballots from 60.3% of polling stations tallied, Mr Karzai has 1,744,428 votes to 1,201,838 for Abdullah Abdullah, his main challenger, representing a lead of 47.3% to 32.6%.

 

A result is scheduled for 17 September but fraud allegations must be cleared before it is made official.

 

Meanwhile, the United Nations said it hoped to arrange a post-summit between the Afghan government and international partners to promote democracy.

 

Details where still being decided, but officials said the summit was likely to be held in the Afghan capital, Kabul, early next year.

 

Satellite image showing the area of the air strike

 

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/8239423.stm

 

 

The German's at it again (after a 60 year cessation in hostilities)

[Park Life 71]

Tbf they can't fight their way out of a paper bag these days...

[Fop 1]

US general sees strike aftermath

Gen McChrystal, centre, inspected the site of the air strike

 

The head of US and Nato forces in Afghanistan has visited the area where a Nato air strike destroyed two fuel tankers hijacked by Taliban militants.

 

Gen Stanley McChrystal's visit came amid reports that civilians were among scores of people killed in the attack.

 

Gen McChrystal has made avoiding civilian deaths a priority in the alliance's Afghan campaign.

 

A Nato investigative team also visited the site of the attack, on the Kunduz River in northern Afghanistan.

 

The 10-member team led by US Rear Admiral Gregory J Smith had earlier visited a hospital in Kunduz city where some of the injured are being treated.

 

See a map of the area

 

Rear Adm Smith said there were few confirmed details so far.

 

"Two fuel trucks were stuck in the sandbar. There were two bombs dropped on that area," he said.

 

"The sense was that there were insurgents there, but we need to discover what really happened.

 

"We are really trying to learn and understand, and we are listening."

 

In a statement broadcast on Afghan television, Gen McChrystal promised a full investigation into the air strike.

 

"As commander of the International Security Assistance Force (Isaf), nothing is more important than the safety and protection of the Afghan people," he said.

 

Site of the tanker strike in Kunduz province

The Taliban admitted hijacking the tankers, laden with jet fuel

 

"I take this possible loss of life or injury to innocent Afghans very seriously."

 

Meanwhile, the German defence minister has defended his country's troops for ordering the air strike.

 

Franz Josef Jung said the two fuel tankers had posed a considerable danger to the German soldiers stationed close by.

 

The Nato attack occurred about 7km (four miles) south-west of Kunduz city before dawn on Friday.

 

German forces had reported the two tankers hijacked by the Taliban while they were being driven from Tajikistan to supply Nato forces in Kabul.

 

Witnesses said one of the tankers had become stuck in a river and militants asked villagers to extract fuel to make it lighter.

 

At that point, the air strike occurred.

 

The death toll is still not confirmed, with reports varying from 56 to 90.

 

French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner said the attack had been a "big mistake".

 

The West should "work with the Afghan people, not bomb them", Mr Kouchner said in Stockholm, where European Union foreign ministers have concluded two days of talks focusing on their strategy in Afghanistan.

 

The ministers agreed there was "a need to reinforce our political, civilian and economic efforts in Afghanistan", Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bildt said.

 

They also said there should be a greater focus fighting corruption and the production of opium.

[Fop 1]

Many die in Afghan tanker blasts

 

Scene of the blast in Kunduz

The tankers were crossing a river when the air strike took place

 

Scores of people are reported killed after a Nato air strike blew up two fuel tankers hijacked by the Taliban in northern Afghanistan.

 

The governor of Kunduz province told the BBC that Taliban leaders were among at least 90 killed. Witnesses said locals taking fuel also died.

 

Nato said its commanders believed only insurgents were present but that it had reports many civilians were injured.

 

Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen said an investigation was under way.

 

A statement from Hamid Karzai's office said the Afghan president believed that "targeting civilians in any form is unacceptable and [he] emphasised that innocent civilians must not be killed or wounded during military operations".

'Beheaded'

 

The Taliban confirmed to the BBC that they had stolen the tankers, one of which became stuck at a river crossing.

Map of the area

The Taliban spokesman said that it was decided to empty the tankers and local people arrived to take some of the fuel.

 

ANALYSIS

Chris Morris

Chris Morris, BBC News, Afghanistan

 

 

 

If it emerges that a number of civilians have been killed then that will obviously be very disappointing to Nato.

 

The issue of civilian casualties caused by international military action is extremely sensitive here. It has caused great anger.

 

It is something military commanders have said they are determined to clamp down on, because they say if they win territory and not the people then they are not doing their job.

 

At this point, a Nato air strike hit the tankers causing a huge explosion, he said.

 

The Nato attack occurred about 7km (four miles) south-west of Kunduz city at about 0200 Friday (2130 Thursday GMT).

 

International Security Assistance Force (Isaf) spokeswoman Lt Cdr Christine Sidenstricker said Afghan forces had reported the fuel trucks hijacked and Nato aircraft had spotted them on a river bank.

 

"After observing that only insurgents were in the area, the local Isaf commander ordered air strikes which destroyed the fuel trucks and killed a large number of insurgents," she said.

 

"The strike was against insurgents. That is who we believe was killed."

 

Later another spokesman, Brig Gen Eric Tremblay, was quoted by Reuters as saying: "It would appear that many civilian casualties are being evacuated and treated in the local hospitals.

 

"There is perhaps a direct link with the incident that has occurred around the two fuel trucks."

 

Isaf spokesman Eric Tremblay tells how militants hijacked the trucks

 

The AFP news agency reported that there were many seriously burned people in a hospital in Kunduz.

 

One of the drivers of the tankers told the BBC that two of his colleagues had been beheaded when the Taliban carried out the hijacking.

 

Kunduz province Governor Mohammad Omar said most of the dead were Taliban fighters - some of whom were Chechens .

 

Witness Mohammad Daud, 32, told AFP the militants had been trying to transport the tankers across a river to villages in Angorbagh.

 

"They managed to take one of the tankers over the river. The second got stuck so they told villagers to come and take the diesel," he said.

 

 

RECENT MAJOR ATTACKS

2 Sep: Blast in Laghman province kills Afghan deputy chief of intelligence and 21 others

25 Aug: Car bomb in southern city of Kandahar kills at least 40

18 Aug: Nine Afghans and a Nato soldier die and more than 50 are injured in Kabul

15 Aug: Bomb outside Nato HQ in Kabul kills seven and injures 90

13 Aug: Twin blasts in Helmand and Kandahar kill 14, including several children

6 Aug: Five American and three UK soldiers, five civilians and five policemen killed by roadside bombs mainly in Helmand

3 Aug: Bomb in Herat city kills 12

 

In pictures: Afghan tanker strike

Limited time for Afghan success

Taliban infiltrate Afghan north

 

"Villagers rushed to the fuel tanker with any available container that they had.

 

"There were 10 to 15 Taliban on top of the tanker. This was when they were bombed. Everyone around the fuel tanker died."

 

Mr Rasmussen said the leader of international troops in Afghanistan, Gen Stanley McChrystal, had told President Karzai he was committed to investigating the incident.

 

"It is really a focal point for our Isaf troops to minimise the number of civilian casualties, and a new strategy to that end has already been introduced," Mr Rasmussen said.

 

"Civilian casualties caused by Isaf are down over 95% from last year's levels. But, as we all know, in conflicts like these, mistakes can happen. In this case, let us now see what the investigation concludes."

 

The incident came days after Gen McChrystal reiterated calls for a fresh approach to the conflict.

 

"The situation in Afghanistan is serious, but success is achievable and demands a revised implementation strategy, commitment and resolve, and increased unity of effort," he wrote in a strategic assessment.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/8237287.stm

[Park Life 71]

Personally I find these drones quite boring.

[Guest alex]

[Fop 1]

Personally I find these drones quite boring.

One may be watching you at this moment.

[Fop 1]

Taliban demand air strike inquiry

 

 

Troops inspect the site where villagers reportedly died when US jets bombed fuel tankers hijacked by the Taliban, at Kunduz, on 5 September 2009

Friday's air strike by US jets was called in by a German commander

 

The Taliban have called for a UN and human rights investigation into an air strike in Afghanistan on Friday that killed dozens of people.

 

The independent Afghanistan Rights Monitor group says up to 70 civilians died in the Kunduz province raid.

 

The Nato air strike targeted fuel tankers hijacked by the insurgents.

 

The BBC's David Loyn in Kabul says the Taliban call is a change to its usual policy of opposing all foreign involvement in Afghanistan.

 

Meanwhile, US forces are facing new criticism from a Swedish organisation which claims US soldiers forced their way into a hospital, searching for insurgents.

 

Unprecedented TV appeal

 

The Swedish Committee for Afghanistan, which runs the hospital in Wardak province, south-west of Kabul, says its employees were tied up by American troops who spent two hours scouring wards.

 

Aftermath of the blast in Kunduz province

 

The aid group says this was a clear violation of international principles and made its humanitarian task more difficult.

 

The prevention of civilian casualties and protection of the Afghan population forms the centrepiece of a new military strategy for Afghanistan by the commander of US forces, General Stanley McChrystal.

 

After the raid in the far north of the country, Gen McChrystal made an unprecedented TV appeal to the Afghan people saying he took the loss of civilian life very seriously.

 

'Condemn this incident'

 

Our correspondent says no-one disputes that many Taliban fighters were killed when the two tankers were destroyed, but estimates of the number of civilian casualties have varied widely.

 

The attack is bad news for us as Kunduz is already becoming the Helmand of the North

 

Eyewitness: 'Anger in Kuduz'

The Taliban statement said: "We urge the world human rights organisations, the United Nations authorities and other independent world bodies and governments to observe their humanitarian and ethical responsibility by condemning this incident and preventing such incidents in future."

 

The Taliban statement claims 150 civilians died, many of them children of families who had come to siphon fuel from the tankers.

 

The overnight bombing attack by an American jet was called in by a German commander, and has led to strains between the two Nato allies.

 

Incumbent Hamid Karzai (right) and his main presidential challenger Abdullah Abdullah

Hamid Karzai ® has extended his poll lead over Abdullah Abdullah (L)

 

Rear Adm Gregory J Smith, the top US and Nato spokesman in Afghanistan, said German troops should have secured the site of the air strike in its immediate aftermath and established what happened, to prevent the Taliban coming out with its own version of events.

 

The German military said they had feared the hijackers would use the fuel trucks for a suicide attack against its base nearby.

 

Speaking in Berlin on Sunday, German Chancellor Angela Merkel said if any civilians died in the raid, she would "naturally deeply regret that".

 

Meanwhile, the latest results dribbling laboriously out from last month's Afghan presidential election showed incumbent Hamid Karzai close to the 50% threshold needed to avoid a run-off ballot.

 

With three-quarters of votes counted, he had 48.6%, followed by Abdullah Abdullah with 31.7%.

 

Final results are expected at the end of this month.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/8241499.stm

 

 

Pretty impressive of the Taliban really, many here would be proud.

[Fop 1]

The air strike has caused strains between the German and US military, and was strongly criticised by Afghan President Hamid Karzai.

 

"What an error of judgment! More than 90 dead all because of a simple lorry that was, moreover, immobilised in a riverbed. Why didn't they send in ground troops to recover the fuel tank?" he said in an interview with the French newspaper Le Figaro.

 

"General McChrystal telephoned me to apologise and to say that he himself hadn't given the order to attack," he added.

 

But German Defence Secretary Franz Josef Jung has defied calls to resign over the incident - the deadliest involving German troops since World War II - and a defence ministry spokesman insisted the decision to attack was "militarily necessary and correct".

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8243669.stm

 

 

 

You can see the catch22 though, Karzai and most Afghans couldn't give a toss about how many Britsh/NATO/whatever troops might be killed for their political end/protection/whatever.

 

Where as the military forces in there would be loath to risk ground troops to recover a fuel tanker, but equally wouldn't let the Taliban have it.

[sniffer 0]

All things considered then, they did the right thing.

[Fop 1]

All things considered then, they did the right thing.

 

 

As with all things Afghanistan it's probably a matter of least worst thing.

[Fop 1]

Afghanistan's 'weekend jihadis'

 

By Kate Clark

Radio 4, The World Tonight

 

Civil servant Gul Mohammad has fought for the Taliban for two years

 

In the villages of Afghanistan, many young men are working for the government during the week, but fighting for the Taliban at weekends.

 

"We don't get paid," says Gul Mohammad.

 

"It's voluntary - all for the sake of God. We even buy fuel for the operations ourselves. And our own ammunition and bullets."

 

Gul Mohammad (his name changed to protect his identity) is not what you might think of as a typical Taliban fighter.

 

He is educated, in his 20s, married with children and, during the week, he works in a government office.

 

"I'm a civil servant - that's how I support my family, with my salary and by growing wheat, here in the village.

 

"At the same time, I work for the Islamic Emirate (the name the Taliban use for their regime in Afghanistan). I've been fighting for the Taliban for about two years."

 

As people saw the government becoming more inefficient, corrupt and indifferent, they started tending towards the Taliban

Moshin, Taliban fighter

 

Gul Mohammad is one of an unknown number of Afghans who work in a government office during the week and commute home to their village at weekends to see their children and fight for the Taliban.

 

He lives in Wardak Province, which lies just to the west of Kabul. Its capital, Maidan Shah, is a 20-minute drive from Kabul. He says he has no trouble combining office work and Taliban duties.

 

Split loyalties

 

The phenomenon of weekend jihadis raises many questions - not just about how to maintain the security of Kabul and provincial capitals, but also how the insurgency will reach an end.

 

Most Taliban fighters in his area are young men, says Mohsin (name changed to protect identity), who is also from the district of Wardak. He says many are civil servants.

 

"People working in Kabul or the provincial capital, who have land and families in the villages, need to show they support the Taliban.

 

"They provide manpower or contribute in other ways like giving top-up cards for mobile phones or financial assistance. They need to be able to keep commuting from village to work."

 

According to Mohsin, it is not just individuals who split their loyalties in order to survive what feels like a civil war.

 

"It's a secret in the village - there are people who are seniors in the Taliban and their brothers are seniors in the Afghan administration - they are aware of each others' activities and their involvement, and this is accepted as a matter of fact."

 

Motives for joining the insurgency vary, he says, from religious fervour to national honour to an eye for making money from kidnapping, or looting from the enemy.

 

Genuine support

In some places, villagers are intimidated and threatened into helping the Taliban, but in his area, Mohsin says support is genuine and has grown because of specific local grievances.

 

"After 2001, people were very optimistic that peace and stability would come - that we would see a proper government that would attend to the needs of people," he said.

 

 

Gul Mohammad with rifle

It's not about fighting - support can be mobile cards or financial assistance

 

"In the first year or two, people were waiting, but it didn't happen. Taliban had reappeared in the area - trying to reorganise their old comrades, but people didn't support them.

 

"Then, as they saw the government becoming more inefficient, corrupt and indifferent, they started tending towards the Taliban."

 

Both Gul Mohommad and Mohsin claimed endemic corruption in government is behind popular discontent, but Mohsin said the spark for the insurgency was the appointment of a particularly predatory police chief to the district.

 

"Imagine - during the day, the police are police and at night, they are robbers. They plunder people's houses, they loot the bazaar and kill innocent people.

 

"People became very angry. They stood against him and his group. And the Taliban grabbed this opportunity. They attacked the district headquarters and, until now, it's under Taliban control."

 

Foreign anger

 

The governor of Wardak, Abdul Haleem Fedaee, who was appointed a year ago, says he cannot reject or confirm the existence of Taliban elements in the state.

 

"But we have intelligence agencies who monitor the civil service and we have other people - elders and clerics - who would also identify anyone who was fighting with the Taliban," he said.

 

He said some civil servants may support the Taliban with money or mobile phone cards, but said they tend to be intimidated and terrorised into helping.

 

Fighting in Wardak has been fierce this year.

 

The US' counter-insurgency strategy is to take areas from the Taliban by force, protecting civilians from the insurgents and allowing the Afghan government to expand into the newly "liberated" zones.

 

Mohsin says American action has just led to more anger.

 

"In our area, Americans have made their base in people's houses. They have blocked the road for 5,000 houses and they have blocked water for an irrigation system that serves a large agricultural area and water for the mosque.

 

"They have started to cut trees on both sides of the road to stop ambushes. People used to think foreign forces were here to ease life and help them - but now their presence is problematic."

 

Gul Mohammad says he had not seen a waning of popular support for the weekend jihadi.

 

"The people are helping us from the bottom of their hearts. During the fighting, they give us food. They help us with economic and technical problems."

 

He says he will keep fighting during his spare time until the foreigners leave.

 

"We will win - not because of planes and soldiers, but by the will of God."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/8248101.stm

 

 

 

So bizarrely civilians are Taliban...... depending on what day of the week they are killed.

[Cid_MCDP 0]

Taliban demand air strike inquiry

 

Pretty impressive of the Taliban really, many here would be proud.

 

Ok, I'm not condoning bombing the fuck out of civilians, but come on. The fucking Taliban wants to make in inquiry? I've fucking seen it all now.

[Fop 1]

Taliban demand air strike inquiry

 

Pretty impressive of the Taliban really, many here would be proud.

 

Ok, I'm not condoning bombing the fuck out of civilians, but come on. The fucking Taliban wants to make in inquiry? I've fucking seen it all now.

 

If they were being clever it could have been their intention all along.

[Happy Face 29]

I didn't appreciate just how much Obama had increased attacks in Pakistan since this thread started.

 

2004 - 1

2005 - 2

2006 - 1

2007 - 3

2008 - 17

2009 - 46

 

In January of 2010 there have already been 11 separate attacks, 3 times as many as the average for each month last year.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drone_attacks_in_Pakistan

 

And now CNN are reporting 5 drones were launched on 4 villages yesterday killing 29, so it looks like it's going to be another bumper month.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/02/0...n.drone.strike/

 

Are there THAT many more militants in Pakistan than there were in 2007? Considering only 2 targets have been named across all of the 2010 attacks so far and none have been confirmed killed it wouldn't seem so.

Edited February 3, 2010 by Happy Face