BNP wins seats

[Park Life 71]

Soviet money was also paid to Socialist Worker, The Union movement, Socialist Party of GB, Militant Tendency (I saw the cheques) Communist Pary of GB and the Labour Party, Liverpool City council . During the miners strike food parcels were paid for by the Internationalist fund based in Czech adn Poland.

Tbf, how else would they have afforded Derek Hatton's suits?

 

The taxi bills were high too. :lol:

[LeazesMag 0]

I don't doubt there was some KGB infiltration into movements like CND at the height of the Cold War but you could say that about dozens of other organisations not to mention every branch of the Armed Forces but it doesn't make them sympathetic to the Soviet Union as a whole, does it?

 

it is true that the armed forces and services contained a few who had Soviet Sympathies ie Blunt for example who worked for MI5, but the entire movement of CND was sympathetic to the wishes of Soviet Russia and the KGB who knew it and had influence in it. I don't imagine for a moment that a lot of people in CND meant well and thought what they were doing was worthwhile but, in reality, they were gullible, they were demonstrating for a cause which was never going to happen.

[AgentAxeman 174]

I think this pretty much backs LM assertion that the CND were (at least partly) communist controlled for a while

 

 

State surveillance of CND

 

The security service (MI5) has carried out surveillance of CND members it considered to be subversive. From the late 1960s until the mid-1970s, MI5 designated CND as subversive by virtue of its being "communist controlled". From the late 1970s, it was downgraded to "communist-penetrated". MI5 says it has no current investigations in this area.[24]

 

In 1985, Cathy Massiter, an MI5 officer who had been responsible for the surveillance of CND from 1981 to 1983, resigned and made disclosures to a Channel 4 20/20 Vision programme, "MI5's Official Secrets".[25][26] She said that her work was determined more by the political importance of CND than by any security threat posed by subversive elements within it. In 1983, she analysed telephone intercepts on John Cox that gave her access to conversations with Joan Ruddock and Bruce Kent. MI5 also placed a spy, Harry Newton, in the CND office. On the basis of Ruddock's contacts, MI5 suspected her of being a communist sympathiser and it was suggested that Bruce Kent might be a crypto-communist. MI5 also suspected its treasurer, Cathy Ashton, of being a communist sympathiser.[21] When Michael Heseltine became Secretary of State for Defence, Massiter prepared a report on CND for him. She was asked to provide information for Defence Secretariat 19 about leading CND personnel but was instructed to include only information from published sources.

[LeazesMag 0]

Losing it in his dotage tbh.

 

 

ah. You are back. You know nowt about this lad so I wouldn't bother if I was you.

 

I know how thick you are.

 

you are out of your depth here son.

 

 

 

All you've got is opinions and demonstrably no critical faculties. The fact you're posting lines of dissociated words is neither here nor there.

 

 

not "opinions".

 

YAWN ........

 

 

 

When you dismiss arguments without actually providing a counter argument (95% of your output, the rest being padded out by casual racism), they're opinions and nowt else.

 

 

I'm dismissing yours . Because you're dumb, and because I know what I say is right .

 

Anyway, I've gave links and so has Agent Axeman.

 

Bye.

Edited February 3, 2010 by LeazesMag

[Guest alex]

I don't doubt there was some KGB infiltration into movements like CND at the height of the Cold War but you could say that about dozens of other organisations not to mention every branch of the Armed Forces but it doesn't make them sympathetic to the Soviet Union as a whole, does it?

 

it is true that the armed forces and services contained a few who had Soviet Sympathies ie Blunt for example who worked for MI5, but the entire movement of CND was sympathetic to the wishes of Soviet Russia and the KGB who knew it and had influence in it. I don't imagine for a moment that a lot of people in CND meant well and thought what they were doing was worthwhile but, in reality, they were gullible, they were demonstrating for a cause which was never going to happen.

I don't accept that for one moment. You can't just come out with stuff like that man. My Mam thought CND / the women at Greenham Common were a just cause in the early 80s and she's hardly Millie Tant out the Viz. Arguing they are / were gullible is an enitrely different thing.

[Park Life 71]

I'm afraid LM is right on this one.

[manc-mag 1]

Losing it in his dotage tbh.

 

 

ah. You are back. You know nowt about this lad so I wouldn't bother if I was you.

 

I know how thick you are.

 

you are out of your depth here son.

 

 

 

All you've got is opinions and demonstrably no critical faculties. The fact you're posting lines of dissociated words is neither here nor there.

 

 

not "opinions".

 

YAWN ........

 

 

 

When you dismiss arguments without actually providing a counter argument (95% of your output, the rest being padded out by casual racism), they're opinions and nowt else.

 

 

I'm dismissing yours . Because your dumb, and because I know what I say is right

 

 

 

Another point well made.

[PaddockLad 17152]

Czechoslovakia was Soviet rule when they rolled the tanks in, despite being a Socialist government. It still operated under the Soviet's system of economy and industry which is why Dubcek attempted his reforms. The Soviets used the Brezhnev Doctrine, which allowed them to invade any country that they thought was swaying to capitalism, as a justification for invasion. They never invaded anywhere to claim land but rather keep the satellite states they already had.

 

Quite possibly all true, but I wasn't aware that Afghanistan was part of either the Soviet Union or in it's sphere of influence at any time between the end of WW2 and 1979 when the tanks rolled into Kabul.

 

And that is a gig thats still being played out today as we speak with hundreds of UK service men and women no longer with us because of it. Geroge Bush financed,trained and armed Bin Laden in the 80s and we're paying the price for that particular foreign policy fuck up to this day.

 

A pox on the USA and Soviet Union

Edited February 3, 2010 by PaddockLad

[Park Life 71]

I think this pretty much backs LM assertion that the CND were (at least partly) communist controlled for a while

 

 

State surveillance of CND

 

The security service (MI5) has carried out surveillance of CND members it considered to be subversive. From the late 1960s until the mid-1970s, MI5 designated CND as subversive by virtue of its being "communist controlled". From the late 1970s, it was downgraded to "communist-penetrated". MI5 says it has no current investigations in this area.[24]

 

In 1985, Cathy Massiter, an MI5 officer who had been responsible for the surveillance of CND from 1981 to 1983, resigned and made disclosures to a Channel 4 20/20 Vision programme, "MI5's Official Secrets".[25][26] She said that her work was determined more by the political importance of CND than by any security threat posed by subversive elements within it. In 1983, she analysed telephone intercepts on John Cox that gave her access to conversations with Joan Ruddock and Bruce Kent. MI5 also placed a spy, Harry Newton, in the CND office. On the basis of Ruddock's contacts, MI5 suspected her of being a communist sympathiser and it was suggested that Bruce Kent might be a crypto-communist. MI5 also suspected its treasurer, Cathy Ashton, of being a communist sympathiser.[21] When Michael Heseltine became Secretary of State for Defence, Massiter prepared a report on CND for him. She was asked to provide information for Defence Secretariat 19 about leading CND personnel but was instructed to include only information from published sources.

 

CND like all the left radicals were under surveillance inc 19yr old kids in Militant etc...

 

Kept me old head down since. :lol:

[NJS 4375]

but the entire movement of CND was sympathetic to the wishes of Soviet Russia and the KGB who knew it and had influence in it. I don't imagine for a moment that a lot of people in CND meant well and thought what they were doing was worthwhile but, in reality, they were gullible, they were demonstrating for a cause which was never going to happen.

 

TBF I agree with that - though I'd say it was never going to happen because the British establishment wouldn't let it happen rather than for any reason to do with Russia.

 

There's nothing wrong with having ideals or targets that you know deep down will never happen - expecting NUFC to win something comes to mind - but dismissing people like Tony Benn as Soviet sympathisers is still pathetic.

[LeazesMag 0]

I don't doubt there was some KGB infiltration into movements like CND at the height of the Cold War but you could say that about dozens of other organisations not to mention every branch of the Armed Forces but it doesn't make them sympathetic to the Soviet Union as a whole, does it?

 

it is true that the armed forces and services contained a few who had Soviet Sympathies ie Blunt for example who worked for MI5, but the entire movement of CND was sympathetic to the wishes of Soviet Russia and the KGB who knew it and had influence in it. I don't imagine for a moment that a lot of people in CND meant well and thought what they were doing was worthwhile but, in reality, they were gullible, they were demonstrating for a cause which was never going to happen.

I don't accept that for one moment. You can't just come out with stuff like that man. My Mam thought CND / the women at Greenham Common were a just cause in the early 80s and she's hardly Millie Tant out the Viz. Arguing they are / were gullible is an enitrely different thing.

 

of course she thought it was worthwhile, a lot of women did. A lot of blokes did too, there is nothing wrong with not wanting war and conflict.

[Ayatollah Hermione 13842]

Czechoslovakia was Soviet rule when they rolled the tanks in, despite being a Socialist government. It still operated under the Soviet's system of economy and industry which is why Dubcek attempted his reforms. The Soviets used the Brezhnev Doctrine, which allowed them to invade any country that they thought was swaying to capitalism, as a justification for invasion. They never invaded anywhere to claim land but rather keep the satellite states they already had.

 

Quite possibly all true, but I wasn't aware that Afghanistan was part of either the Soviet Union or in it's sphere of influence.

 

Pretty sure the government was a self-declared communist state and they requested the Soviets help.

[LeazesMag 0]

but the entire movement of CND was sympathetic to the wishes of Soviet Russia and the KGB who knew it and had influence in it. I don't imagine for a moment that a lot of people in CND meant well and thought what they were doing was worthwhile but, in reality, they were gullible, they were demonstrating for a cause which was never going to happen.

 

TBF I agree with that - though I'd say it was never going to happen because the British establishment wouldn't let it happen rather than for any reason to do with Russia.

 

There's nothing wrong with having ideals or targets that you know deep down will never happen - expecting NUFC to win something comes to mind - but dismissing people like Tony Benn as Soviet sympathisers is still pathetic.

 

 

it is not, he marched with CND and was a spokesman at some of their rallies.

[Park Life 71]

Czechoslovakia was Soviet rule when they rolled the tanks in, despite being a Socialist government. It still operated under the Soviet's system of economy and industry which is why Dubcek attempted his reforms. The Soviets used the Brezhnev Doctrine, which allowed them to invade any country that they thought was swaying to capitalism, as a justification for invasion. They never invaded anywhere to claim land but rather keep the satellite states they already had.

 

Quite possibly all true, but I wasn't aware that Afghanistan was part of either the Soviet Union or in it's sphere of influence.

 

Pretty sure the government was a self-declared communist state and they requested the Soviets help.

 

Yup.

[NJS 4375]

but the entire movement of CND was sympathetic to the wishes of Soviet Russia and the KGB who knew it and had influence in it. I don't imagine for a moment that a lot of people in CND meant well and thought what they were doing was worthwhile but, in reality, they were gullible, they were demonstrating for a cause which was never going to happen.

 

TBF I agree with that - though I'd say it was never going to happen because the British establishment wouldn't let it happen rather than for any reason to do with Russia.

 

There's nothing wrong with having ideals or targets that you know deep down will never happen - expecting NUFC to win something comes to mind - but dismissing people like Tony Benn as Soviet sympathisers is still pathetic.

 

 

it is not, he marched with CND and was a spokesman at some of their rallies.

 

Supporting the organisation does not make him a Soviet spy though - that's the point - Benn was/is very much in favour of democracy.

[Guest alex]

I don't doubt there was some KGB infiltration into movements like CND at the height of the Cold War but you could say that about dozens of other organisations not to mention every branch of the Armed Forces but it doesn't make them sympathetic to the Soviet Union as a whole, does it?

 

it is true that the armed forces and services contained a few who had Soviet Sympathies ie Blunt for example who worked for MI5, but the entire movement of CND was sympathetic to the wishes of Soviet Russia and the KGB who knew it and had influence in it. I don't imagine for a moment that a lot of people in CND meant well and thought what they were doing was worthwhile but, in reality, they were gullible, they were demonstrating for a cause which was never going to happen.

I don't accept that for one moment. You can't just come out with stuff like that man. My Mam thought CND / the women at Greenham Common were a just cause in the early 80s and she's hardly Millie Tant out the Viz. Arguing they are / were gullible is an enitrely different thing.

 

of course she thought it was worthwhile, a lot of women did. A lot of blokes did too, there is nothing wrong with not wanting war and conflict.

I was just arguing about saying it applied to the whole of the movement. You can't say they were being secretly-funded by Russia on one hand then argue the whole of the movement / organisation was sympathetic to the wishes of the Soviets on the other. Surely you see the contradiction.

Hard to know if they were right or wrong like really. Perhaps there'd have been another world war with nuclear weapons or perhaps they were a huge waste of money.

I remember being quite paranoid about nuclear war as a young kid. Seems weird thinking about it now.

[Park Life 71]

I don't doubt there was some KGB infiltration into movements like CND at the height of the Cold War but you could say that about dozens of other organisations not to mention every branch of the Armed Forces but it doesn't make them sympathetic to the Soviet Union as a whole, does it?

 

it is true that the armed forces and services contained a few who had Soviet Sympathies ie Blunt for example who worked for MI5, but the entire movement of CND was sympathetic to the wishes of Soviet Russia and the KGB who knew it and had influence in it. I don't imagine for a moment that a lot of people in CND meant well and thought what they were doing was worthwhile but, in reality, they were gullible, they were demonstrating for a cause which was never going to happen.

I don't accept that for one moment. You can't just come out with stuff like that man. My Mam thought CND / the women at Greenham Common were a just cause in the early 80s and she's hardly Millie Tant out the Viz. Arguing they are / were gullible is an enitrely different thing.

 

of course she thought it was worthwhile, a lot of women did. A lot of blokes did too, there is nothing wrong with not wanting war and conflict.

I was just arguing about saying it applied to the whole of the movement. You can't say they were being secretly-funded by Russia on one hand then argue the whole of the movement / organisation was sympathetic to the wishes of the Soviets on the other. Surely you see the contradiction.

Hard to know if they were right or wrong like really. Perhaps there'd have been another world war with nuclear weapons or perhaps they were a huge waste of money.

I remember being quite paranoid about nuclear war as a young kid. Seems weird thinking about it now.

 

Don't think there was ever going to be a war while America was supplying Russia with half its wheat (right through the cold war).

[LeazesMag 0]

but the entire movement of CND was sympathetic to the wishes of Soviet Russia and the KGB who knew it and had influence in it. I don't imagine for a moment that a lot of people in CND meant well and thought what they were doing was worthwhile but, in reality, they were gullible, they were demonstrating for a cause which was never going to happen.

 

TBF I agree with that - though I'd say it was never going to happen because the British establishment wouldn't let it happen rather than for any reason to do with Russia.

 

There's nothing wrong with having ideals or targets that you know deep down will never happen - expecting NUFC to win something comes to mind - but dismissing people like Tony Benn as Soviet sympathisers is still pathetic.

 

 

it is not, he marched with CND and was a spokesman at some of their rallies.

 

Supporting the organisation does not make him a Soviet spy though - that's the point - Benn was/is very much in favour of democracy.

 

never said he was a "spy", just that he sympathised and rallied with CND, who were supported by Soviet Russia. Democracy and Soviet Communism don't go together though, so he was spouting idealistic bollocks. Where have we heard that before ?

[NJS 4375]

I remember being quite paranoid about nuclear war as a young kid. Seems weird thinking about it now.

 

Funnily enough there is a parallel with the "war on terror" - I always thought it was over-hyped to ensure a docile populace.

 

I remember when the Russians downed a US jet over Korea when I was still at school (about 79?) and people being a bit worried and a teacher telling us that if it hadn't happened over Cuba it was never really going to happen.

[Guest alex]

I don't doubt there was some KGB infiltration into movements like CND at the height of the Cold War but you could say that about dozens of other organisations not to mention every branch of the Armed Forces but it doesn't make them sympathetic to the Soviet Union as a whole, does it?

 

it is true that the armed forces and services contained a few who had Soviet Sympathies ie Blunt for example who worked for MI5, but the entire movement of CND was sympathetic to the wishes of Soviet Russia and the KGB who knew it and had influence in it. I don't imagine for a moment that a lot of people in CND meant well and thought what they were doing was worthwhile but, in reality, they were gullible, they were demonstrating for a cause which was never going to happen.

I don't accept that for one moment. You can't just come out with stuff like that man. My Mam thought CND / the women at Greenham Common were a just cause in the early 80s and she's hardly Millie Tant out the Viz. Arguing they are / were gullible is an enitrely different thing.

 

of course she thought it was worthwhile, a lot of women did. A lot of blokes did too, there is nothing wrong with not wanting war and conflict.

I was just arguing about saying it applied to the whole of the movement. You can't say they were being secretly-funded by Russia on one hand then argue the whole of the movement / organisation was sympathetic to the wishes of the Soviets on the other. Surely you see the contradiction.

Hard to know if they were right or wrong like really. Perhaps there'd have been another world war with nuclear weapons or perhaps they were a huge waste of money.

I remember being quite paranoid about nuclear war as a young kid. Seems weird thinking about it now.

 

Don't think there was ever going to be a war while America was supplying Russia with half its wheat (right through the cold war).

Aye but it was flavour of the month back then, i.e. living under the shadow of the mushroom cloud, 'When the Wind Blows' and that Panorama programme about what would happen if a bomb was dropped on St Paul's. Obviously it's Muslims I'm worried about these days

[Park Life 71]

The thing is that was the days of the BIG CHESS BOARD, America routinely funds anti-govt forces/agencies in countries it don't like, there is a long history of this on both sides. Was CND seen as a pretty big pawn by the Soviets? Of course it was as were the radicals in the Labour movements in the 80's.

 

You only have to match up the terrorist threat states with the states that have done oil deals with China to see where that is going. Yemen, Sudan, Chad and of course Iran and Venezuala. Pretty basic stuff really.

[LeazesMag 0]

I remember being quite paranoid about nuclear war as a young kid. Seems weird thinking about it now.

 

Funnily enough there is a parallel with the "war on terror" - I always thought it was over-hyped to ensure a docile populace.

 

I remember when the Russians downed a US jet over Korea when I was still at school (about 79?) and people being a bit worried and a teacher telling us that if it hadn't happened over Cuba it was never really going to happen.

 

They shot down Gary Powers in the 1950's over their airspace, they also shot down a Korean jet because it was too close to Kamchatka Island in about 1983

[NJS 4375]

never said he was a "spy", just that he sympathised and rallied with CND, who were supported by Soviet Russia. Democracy and Soviet Communism don't go together though, so he was spouting idealistic bollocks. Where have we heard that before ?

 

I think you did but anyway...

 

You've just said people could support CND on its own merits without supporting Soviet Russia even if the organisation may have had links - so which way round is it?

 

Its obvious to me that Benn is a pro-democracy socialist who supported CND - I think he can be any of those things and still dislike the actual regime in the Soviet Uinion (much like myself) - is there anything wrong with that statement?

[Park Life 71]

I remember being quite paranoid about nuclear war as a young kid. Seems weird thinking about it now.

 

Funnily enough there is a parallel with the "war on terror" - I always thought it was over-hyped to ensure a docile populace.

 

I remember when the Russians downed a US jet over Korea when I was still at school (about 79?) and people being a bit worried and a teacher telling us that if it hadn't happened over Cuba it was never really going to happen.

 

They shot down Gary Powers in the 1950's over their airspace, they also shot down a Korean jet because it was too close to Kamchatka Island in about 1983

 

NOt bad LM.

[Park Life 71]

never said he was a "spy", just that he sympathised and rallied with CND, who were supported by Soviet Russia. Democracy and Soviet Communism don't go together though, so he was spouting idealistic bollocks. Where have we heard that before ?

 

I think you did but anyway...

 

You've just said people could support CND on its own merits without supporting Soviet Russia even if the organisation may have had links - so which way round is it?

 

Its obvious to me that Benn is a pro-democracy socialist who supported CND - I think he can be any of those things and still dislike the actual regime in the Soviet Uinion (much like myself) - is there anything wrong with that statement?

 

 

Benn god bless him did go through a bit of a deluded phase back in the day. Very good man mind.