BNP wins seats

[NJS 4411]

But surely you can understand that there is a broad spectrum in society from the furtherst right real BNP Nazi to the leftiest of the left.

 

Age, social standing and life experiences determine where you fit on the scale. The problem alot of us have on both sides is that people always want to put you into one camp or the other.

 

I prefer to look at this spectrum as 1 to 100 and where leazes might be at point 70, i might be at point 60. That still does not put either of us at Nazi point 100.

 

Of course - I consider myself broadly left wing but my Mam was Leon Trotsky compared to me.

 

I'm not one of those who thinks anyone who mentions the word immigration is automatically a racist or right wing - I don't mind discussing it at all but I hopefully do that without what I think of as bad starting points like notions of Britishness/Englishness which though undefinable are set in stone.

 

I'd also put LM at about 85 on your scale.

[Christmas Tree 4825]

People who mix racism with immigration cloud the issue.

 

If I can feed 10 people for dinner and 40 turn up it causes a problem.

 

The UK is no different. Each year there is a total sum of money that needs spending on its residents. If the number of residents swell without controls then the cash cant go as far. Simples.

 

Isnt it right that you cant get into Australia unless you either have a job to come too or have sufficient funds to support yourself and family. These funds are placed into a government account and only given back when a sufficient period of time has passed and you have proved you can support yourself.

[NJS 4411]

Would you describe me as such?

 

I don't honestly know Stevie - when you say you aren't and describe how you think in broad terms it rings completely true that you aren't. On the other hand I think some of your generalisations go beyond simply being "un-pc" (which I don't mind at all by the way).

 

I think you have an over the top sense of Englishness (and Geordieness for that matter) which is a bit too black and white (no pun intended). I think you need a bit more realism on some things.

[Happy Face 29]

Hmmm, some good points there. NJS, I agree with you about the points system for immigration. however, this only deals with the people who enter the country legally and this is but a drop in the ocean compared to the overall level of immigrants entering the country atm. I know you mentioned Southern asians through arranged marriages but in reality there are many more than that. unfortunatley nobody seems to know exactly how many illegals are here or perhaps are unwilling to tell. I think there was a study done showing 1 in 7 prisoners in our gaols wernt born in this country. perhaps this sheds some light on the overall problem.

 

of course when i highlight that there is a problem im called a deluded far right fuckwit which quite frankly is deluded childish name calling.

 

Jesus, sometimes it makes you want to spit!

 

I'd be interested in a link to that study. I'll gladly admit I'm wrong but I'd guess it's bullshit.

 

Although it is difficult to know how many people reside in the UK illegally, a Home Office study released in March 2005 estimated a population of between 310,000 and 570,000

...

They suggest the Home Office has underestimated the numbers of unauthorised migrants by between 15,000 and 85,000.

 

So at the most, there's about 650,000 illegals in the UK. That's the total.

 

The Office for national statistics says that about 600,000 immigrants legally come to the UK every year.

 

Rather than legals being a drop in the ocean compared to illegals, it's clearly the exact opposite and Illegals are dwarfed by legals.

 

Moving on, I agree, illegal immigration is a problem. How would you like to see the policy towards it shift. Most illegals try to evade capture, but let's say you could identify them all. What would you do with them. Before you answer, remember....

 

ippr has estimated that if the Government made current illegal migrants legal (regularised) they would pay well in excess of £1bn in tax per year. ippr has also estimated that removing all illegal (irregular) migrants in the UK could cost up to twelve billion pounds and take around twenty five years.

 

http://www.ippr.org/pressreleases/?id=3483

Edited January 29, 2010 by Happy Face

[NJS 4411]

People who mix racism with immigration cloud the issue.

 

If I can feed 10 people for dinner and 40 turn up it causes a problem.

 

The UK is no different. Each year there is a total sum of money that needs spending on its residents. If the number of residents swell without controls then the cash cant go as far. Simples.

 

Isnt it right that you cant get into Australia unless you either have a job to come too or have sufficient funds to support yourself and family. These funds are placed into a government account and only given back when a sufficient period of time has passed and you have proved you can support yourself.

 

Don't forget emigration though - the net numbers are what's important from a strictly resource allocation pov.

[Happy Face 29]

I'd be interested in a link to that study. I'll gladly admit I'm wrong but I'd guess it's bullshit.

 

 

Time to gladly admit I'm wrong...

 

http://www.crimlinks.com/Prison%20Population.htm

 

One in 7.6 are either non-British or have no nationality recorded.

[AgentAxeman 189]

Hmmm, some good points there. NJS, I agree with you about the points system for immigration. however, this only deals with the people who enter the country legally and this is but a drop in the ocean compared to the overall level of immigrants entering the country atm. I know you mentioned Southern asians through arranged marriages but in reality there are many more than that. unfortunatley nobody seems to know exactly how many illegals are here or perhaps are unwilling to tell. I think there was a study done showing 1 in 7 prisoners in our gaols wernt born in this country. perhaps this sheds some light on the overall problem.

 

of course when i highlight that there is a problem im called a deluded far right fuckwit which quite frankly is deluded childish name calling.

 

Jesus, sometimes it makes you want to spit!

 

I'd be interested in a link to that study. I'll gladly admit I'm wrong but I'd guess it's bullshit.

 

Although it is difficult to know how many people reside in the UK illegally, a Home Office study released in March 2005 estimated a population of between 310,000 and 570,000

...

They suggest the Home Office has underestimated the numbers of unauthorised migrants by between 15,000 and 85,000.

 

So at the most, there's about 650,000 illegals in the UK. That's the total.

 

The Office for national statistics says that about 600,000 immigrants legally come to the UK every year.

 

Rather than legals being a drop in the ocean compared to illegals, it's clearly the exact opposite and Illegals are dwarfed by legals.

 

Moving on, I agree, illegal immigration is a problem. How would you like to see the policy towards it shift. Most illegals try to evade capture, but let's say you could identify them all. What would you do with them. Before you answer, remember....

 

ippr has estimated that if the Government made current illegal migrants legal (regularised) they would pay well in excess of £1bn in tax per year. ippr has also estimated that removing all illegal (irregular) migrants in the UK could cost up to twelve billion pounds and take around twenty five years.

 

http://www.ippr.org/pressreleases/?id=3483

 

 

nice numbers Happy, but as a retort, when did this current government ever get its figures right?

[NJS 4411]

I'd be interested in a link to that study. I'll gladly admit I'm wrong but I'd guess it's bullshit.

 

 

Time to gladly admit I'm wrong...

 

http://www.crimlinks.com/Prison%20Population.htm

 

One in 7.6 are either non-British or have no nationality recorded.

 

 

Prison population stats are always dodgy though - the religosity of US inmates goes beyond even that of the general populace but even I don't use that to say theres a link.

 

 

I think there are studies I've read about which show that UK judges do show bias (surprise, surprise) in sentencing blacks so I guess that would extend to non-brits.

[Happy Face 29]

Hmmm, some good points there. NJS, I agree with you about the points system for immigration. however, this only deals with the people who enter the country legally and this is but a drop in the ocean compared to the overall level of immigrants entering the country atm. I know you mentioned Southern asians through arranged marriages but in reality there are many more than that. unfortunatley nobody seems to know exactly how many illegals are here or perhaps are unwilling to tell. I think there was a study done showing 1 in 7 prisoners in our gaols wernt born in this country. perhaps this sheds some light on the overall problem.

 

of course when i highlight that there is a problem im called a deluded far right fuckwit which quite frankly is deluded childish name calling.

 

Jesus, sometimes it makes you want to spit!

 

I'd be interested in a link to that study. I'll gladly admit I'm wrong but I'd guess it's bullshit.

 

Although it is difficult to know how many people reside in the UK illegally, a Home Office study released in March 2005 estimated a population of between 310,000 and 570,000

...

They suggest the Home Office has underestimated the numbers of unauthorised migrants by between 15,000 and 85,000.

 

So at the most, there's about 650,000 illegals in the UK. That's the total.

 

The Office for national statistics says that about 600,000 immigrants legally come to the UK every year.

 

Rather than legals being a drop in the ocean compared to illegals, it's clearly the exact opposite and Illegals are dwarfed by legals.

 

Moving on, I agree, illegal immigration is a problem. How would you like to see the policy towards it shift. Most illegals try to evade capture, but let's say you could identify them all. What would you do with them. Before you answer, remember....

 

ippr has estimated that if the Government made current illegal migrants legal (regularised) they would pay well in excess of £1bn in tax per year. ippr has also estimated that removing all illegal (irregular) migrants in the UK could cost up to twelve billion pounds and take around twenty five years.

 

http://www.ippr.org/pressreleases/?id=3483

 

 

nice numbers Happy, but as a retort, when did this current government ever get its figures right?

 

If you're not working from the best numbers available then you can only work from perception. A Daily Mail reading BNP voter living in Bradford has a completely different perception to a Gaurdian reading Green voter in Surrey.

 

Basing the argument on perceptions you can only come to a Renton/Leazes style impasse. The best numbers are far more likely reveal the truth.

 

EDIT: Like above where I was glad to admit i was wrong, because the numbers (despite being 6 years old) are the best I could find and they back you up. I guess where I go wrong is expecting other people to respect the facts.

Edited January 29, 2010 by Happy Face

[Park Life 71]

Would you describe me as such?

 

I don't honestly know Stevie - when you say you aren't and describe how you think in broad terms it rings completely true that you aren't. On the other hand I think some of your generalisations go beyond simply being "un-pc" (which I don't mind at all by the way).

 

I think you have an over the top sense of Englishness (and Geordieness for that matter) which is a bit too black and white (no pun intended). I think you need a bit more realism on some things.

 

[AgentAxeman 189]

The best numbers are far more likely reveal the truth.

 

 

totally agree, however, thanks to the many lies and falsehoods ive been fed for the last 13 yrs i tend to treat such figures with extreme skepticism.

 

Parky esque some would say!!

 

 

fuckin hell, ive just looked out of the window. its a fuckin whiteout atm!!

[Park Life 71]

Hmmm, some good points there. NJS, I agree with you about the points system for immigration. however, this only deals with the people who enter the country legally and this is but a drop in the ocean compared to the overall level of immigrants entering the country atm. I know you mentioned Southern asians through arranged marriages but in reality there are many more than that. unfortunatley nobody seems to know exactly how many illegals are here or perhaps are unwilling to tell. I think there was a study done showing 1 in 7 prisoners in our gaols wernt born in this country. perhaps this sheds some light on the overall problem.

 

of course when i highlight that there is a problem im called a deluded far right fuckwit which quite frankly is deluded childish name calling.

 

Jesus, sometimes it makes you want to spit!

 

I'd be interested in a link to that study. I'll gladly admit I'm wrong but I'd guess it's bullshit.

 

Although it is difficult to know how many people reside in the UK illegally, a Home Office study released in March 2005 estimated a population of between 310,000 and 570,000

...

They suggest the Home Office has underestimated the numbers of unauthorised migrants by between 15,000 and 85,000.

 

So at the most, there's about 650,000 illegals in the UK. That's the total.

 

The Office for national statistics says that about 600,000 immigrants legally come to the UK every year.

 

Rather than legals being a drop in the ocean compared to illegals, it's clearly the exact opposite and Illegals are dwarfed by legals.

 

Moving on, I agree, illegal immigration is a problem. How would you like to see the policy towards it shift. Most illegals try to evade capture, but let's say you could identify them all. What would you do with them. Before you answer, remember....

 

ippr has estimated that if the Government made current illegal migrants legal (regularised) they would pay well in excess of £1bn in tax per year. ippr has also estimated that removing all illegal (irregular) migrants in the UK could cost up to twelve billion pounds and take around twenty five years.

 

http://www.ippr.org/pressreleases/?id=3483

 

 

nice numbers Happy, but as a retort, when did this current government ever get its figures right?

 

If you're not working from the best numbers available then you can only work from perception. A Daily Mail reading BNP voter living in Bradford has a completely different perception to a Gaurdian reading Green voter in Surrey.

 

Basing the argument on perceptions you can only come to a Renton/Leazes style impasse. The best numbers are far more likely reveal the truth.

 

EDIT: Like above where I was glad to admit i was wrong, because the numbers (despite being 6 years old) are the best I could find and they back you up. I guess where I go wrong is expecting other people to respect the facts.

 

My mums basically a right wing loony. She lives in Surrey she reads the Mail, she's a member of Ukip, but she has strong green leanings. On the other hand she is a strong supporter of the NHS and was against the war in Iraq. I think a lot of people have a potpourri of ideas which are issue led rather than a broad agenda. People haven't got time to have a broad overview.

[Park Life 71]

The best numbers are far more likely reveal the truth.

 

 

totally agree, however, thanks to the many lies and falsehoods ive been fed for the last 13 yrs i tend to treat such figures with extreme skepticism.

 

Parky esque some would say!!

 

 

fuckin hell, ive just looked out of the window. its a fuckin whiteout atm!!

 

The long term programme of most western countries is for more immigration.

[Guest Stevie]

Would you describe me as such?

 

I don't honestly know Stevie - when you say you aren't and describe how you think in broad terms it rings completely true that you aren't. On the other hand I think some of your generalisations go beyond simply being "un-pc" (which I don't mind at all by the way).

 

I think you have an over the top sense of Englishness (and Geordieness for that matter) which is a bit too black and white (no pun intended). I think you need a bit more realism on some things.

I see the big picture, and it's clouded with people who are too much of one thing or too much of the other. Classic examples being Happy Face and Renton. Happy Face deeply and I mean deeply pisses me off, everything on this issue, every fuckin thing is the governments fault, our fault as a nation and as a people, it's never ever the fault of these economic refugees or muslims in general never their fault, we are the root cause of everything, and I can't tell you how much it pisses me off reading his bollocks.

[Happy Face 29]

The best numbers are far more likely reveal the truth.

 

 

totally agree, however, thanks to the many lies and falsehoods ive been fed for the last 13 yrs i tend to treat such figures with extreme skepticism.

 

Parky esque some would say!!

 

 

fuckin hell, ive just looked out of the window. its a fuckin whiteout atm!!

 

Then why did you use the one in seven stat on prison numbers?

 

I think what you mean is treat the figures that don't conform to your preconceptions with skepticism while those that enforce them you deem trustworthy and pertinent to the debate.

[AgentAxeman 189]

The best numbers are far more likely reveal the truth.

 

 

totally agree, however, thanks to the many lies and falsehoods ive been fed for the last 13 yrs i tend to treat such figures with extreme skepticism.

 

Parky esque some would say!!

 

 

fuckin hell, ive just looked out of the window. its a fuckin whiteout atm!!

 

The long term programme of most western countries is for more immigration.

 

 

judging by what ive seen so far i can well believe it

[Happy Face 29]

Would you describe me as such?

 

I don't honestly know Stevie - when you say you aren't and describe how you think in broad terms it rings completely true that you aren't. On the other hand I think some of your generalisations go beyond simply being "un-pc" (which I don't mind at all by the way).

 

I think you have an over the top sense of Englishness (and Geordieness for that matter) which is a bit too black and white (no pun intended). I think you need a bit more realism on some things.

I see the big picture, and it's clouded with people who are too much of one thing or too much of the other. Classic examples being Happy Face and Renton. Happy Face deeply and I mean deeply pisses me off, everything on this issue, every fuckin thing is the governments fault, our fault as a nation and as a people, it's never ever the fault of these economic refugees or muslims in general never their fault, we are the root cause of everything, and I can't tell you how much it pisses me off reading his bollocks.

 

You don't know how happy that makes me.

 

[AgentAxeman 189]

The best numbers are far more likely reveal the truth.

 

 

totally agree, however, thanks to the many lies and falsehoods ive been fed for the last 13 yrs i tend to treat such figures with extreme skepticism.

 

Parky esque some would say!!

 

 

fuckin hell, ive just looked out of the window. its a fuckin whiteout atm!!

 

Then why did you use the one in seven stat on prison numbers?

 

I think what you mean is treat the figures that don't conform to your preconceptions with skepticism while those that enforce them you deem trustworthy and pertinent to the debate.

 

 

ha, good point. but i didnt get those figures from the government so my argument remains true. i got that particular figure from a well respected daily newspaper iirc

[NJS 4411]

I see the big picture, and it's clouded with people who are too much of one thing or too much of the other. Classic examples being Happy Face and Renton. Happy Face deeply and I mean deeply pisses me off, everything on this issue, every fuckin thing is the governments fault, our fault as a nation and as a people, it's never ever the fault of these economic refugees or muslims in general never their fault, we are the root cause of everything, and I can't tell you how much it pisses me off reading his bollocks.

 

I don't really blame people in the third world for wanting to come here - I don't see how you use "fault" for someone who just wants a life. That doesn't mean I think they have a "right" to a life here but the desire is another thing.

 

I'd also say that catching snippets of those UK border force shows which seem to contain a lot of Afghani illegals that you could argue that's our fault.

[Happy Face 29]

Would you describe me as such?

 

I don't honestly know Stevie - when you say you aren't and describe how you think in broad terms it rings completely true that you aren't. On the other hand I think some of your generalisations go beyond simply being "un-pc" (which I don't mind at all by the way).

 

I think you have an over the top sense of Englishness (and Geordieness for that matter) which is a bit too black and white (no pun intended). I think you need a bit more realism on some things.

I see the big picture, and it's clouded with people who are too much of one thing or too much of the other. Classic examples being Happy Face and Renton. Happy Face deeply and I mean deeply pisses me off, everything on this issue, every fuckin thing is the governments fault, our fault as a nation and as a people, it's never ever the fault of these economic refugees or muslims in general never their fault, we are the root cause of everything, and I can't tell you how much it pisses me off reading his bollocks.

 

You don't know how happy that makes me.

 

 

Just to respond a bit more seriously cos I hate to think of you sitting there punching holes in the plaster.

 

I strongly believe that government can't do everything. They have to strive to keep their citizens as safe as possible by minimising any threat to the nation. They cannot ever account for EVERY situation. There'll always be lunatics who are 100% responsible for their actions. There'll always be foreign nationals that want to get into our country to escape misery where they live which we are not responsible for.

 

However, if government action abroad exacerbates those problems then they should be absolutley blamed for doing so.

 

By blaming only the immigrants or the terrorists you're completely ignoring the root cause. Which suggests you don't see as much of the big picture as you claim.

 

Why would I blame muslims in general for the apalling acts of a few any more than i would blame you for the Heysel disaster?

Edited January 29, 2010 by Happy Face

[Guest Stevie]

Would you describe me as such?

 

I don't honestly know Stevie - when you say you aren't and describe how you think in broad terms it rings completely true that you aren't. On the other hand I think some of your generalisations go beyond simply being "un-pc" (which I don't mind at all by the way).

 

I think you have an over the top sense of Englishness (and Geordieness for that matter) which is a bit too black and white (no pun intended). I think you need a bit more realism on some things.

I see the big picture, and it's clouded with people who are too much of one thing or too much of the other. Classic examples being Happy Face and Renton. Happy Face deeply and I mean deeply pisses me off, everything on this issue, every fuckin thing is the governments fault, our fault as a nation and as a people, it's never ever the fault of these economic refugees or muslims in general never their fault, we are the root cause of everything, and I can't tell you how much it pisses me off reading his bollocks.

 

You don't know how happy that makes me.

 

 

Just to respond a bit more seriously cos I hate to think of you sitting there punching holes in the plaster.

 

I strongly believe that government can't do everything. They have to strive to keep their citizens as safe as possible by minimising any threat to the nation. They cannot ever account for EVERY situation. There'll always be lunatics who are 100% responsible for their actions. There'll always be foreign nationals that want to get into our country to escape misery where they live which we are not responsible for.

 

However, if government action abroad exacerbates those problems then they should be absolutley blamed for doing so.

 

By blaming only the immigrants or the terrorists you're completely ignoring the root cause. Which suggests you don't see as much of the big picture as you claim.

 

Why would I blame muslims in general for the apalling acts of a few any more than i would blame you for the Heysel disaster?

Because I don't support the actions of the people who caused Heysel? Where was the cause to support there?

[Happy Face 29]

Because I don't support the actions of the people who caused Heysel? Where was the cause to support there?

 

Nor do the billions of muslims around the globe support Al Qaeda.

[AgentAxeman 189]

Because I don't support the actions of the people who caused Heysel? Where was the cause to support there?

 

Nor do the billions of muslims around the globe support Al Qaeda.

 

 

I dont blame them either for supporting al qaeda. however i will strive to make sure that they dont carry the fight to us.

 

Edit: and if that means they cant come here or should be kicked out then so be it

Edited January 29, 2010 by AgentAxeman

[Happy Face 29]

Because I don't support the actions of the people who caused Heysel? Where was the cause to support there?

 

Nor do the billions of muslims around the globe support Al Qaeda.

 

 

I dont blame them either for supporting al qaeda. however i will strive to make sure that they dont carry the fight to us.

 

Edit: and if that means they cant come here or should be kicked out then so be it

 

They DON'T support them let alone join the fight.

[Happy Face 29]