BNP wins seats

[AgentAxeman 189]

At the same time, there's no point in citing countries that are very different to the UK as a reason why we should leave the EU.

 

 

eh?

 

i didnt start this particular track of conversation and i didnt cite those countries. Renton did. He asked me a question to which i answered. I never for one moment held them up as a shinig example for why the UK should leave the eu. tbh, I'm not that bothered by the countries mentioned. however i do know for an absolute fact that this countrys NET spend to the eu is £40.5 billion per annum. Thats £40.5 billion which could be spent on things like the NHS for example. I also know that we are a NET importer of goods (ie we buy more material goods than we sell). therefore the eu would be stupid in the extreme to take a huff and stop selling us things. and even if by some miracle the eu did decide to stop selling us stuff then theres always the far east markets who would gladly take its place in terms of selling us stuff. at least they (the asians) wouldnt pretend we're all the same because of geographics.

 

That absolute fact of £40.5 billion net expenditure to the EU, have you got a reputable reference for it (i.e. not BNP or UKIP site, preferably a primary reference)? I'm just genuinely curious because I've also heard it stated that we are net beneficaries. In any case the number seems rather large.

 

 

as i said earlier in the thread the source for these figures is Civitas

 

http://www.civitas.org.uk/eufacts/OS/OS13.htm

[Renton 22001]

At the same time, there's no point in citing countries that are very different to the UK as a reason why we should leave the EU.

 

 

eh?

 

i didnt start this particular track of conversation and i didnt cite those countries. Renton did. He asked me a question to which i answered. I never for one moment held them up as a shinig example for why the UK should leave the eu. tbh, I'm not that bothered by the countries mentioned. however i do know for an absolute fact that this countrys NET spend to the eu is £40.5 billion per annum. Thats £40.5 billion which could be spent on things like the NHS for example. I also know that we are a NET importer of goods (ie we buy more material goods than we sell). therefore the eu would be stupid in the extreme to take a huff and stop selling us things. and even if by some miracle the eu did decide to stop selling us stuff then theres always the far east markets who would gladly take its place in terms of selling us stuff. at least they (the asians) wouldnt pretend we're all the same because of geographics.

I know he asked the question. Am I not allowed to comment on the answer like?

 

 

of course you can my friend but your comment implied that i had cited these particular countries 1st. I hadn't so i clarified the point. no offence was taken by your comment, only confusion.

 

Hold on now. I said name a country except Norway. You answered 'Norway'.

 

The correct answer was no country btw. What I'd then like to know is why do you think that is? Presumably other large countries think it is beneficial to be in the EU otherwise they'd withdraw. Not to mention all the countries that would love to join.

[Renton 22001]

At the same time, there's no point in citing countries that are very different to the UK as a reason why we should leave the EU.

 

 

eh?

 

i didnt start this particular track of conversation and i didnt cite those countries. Renton did. He asked me a question to which i answered. I never for one moment held them up as a shinig example for why the UK should leave the eu. tbh, I'm not that bothered by the countries mentioned. however i do know for an absolute fact that this countrys NET spend to the eu is £40.5 billion per annum. Thats £40.5 billion which could be spent on things like the NHS for example. I also know that we are a NET importer of goods (ie we buy more material goods than we sell). therefore the eu would be stupid in the extreme to take a huff and stop selling us things. and even if by some miracle the eu did decide to stop selling us stuff then theres always the far east markets who would gladly take its place in terms of selling us stuff. at least they (the asians) wouldnt pretend we're all the same because of geographics.

 

That absolute fact of £40.5 billion net expenditure to the EU, have you got a reputable reference for it (i.e. not BNP or UKIP site, preferably a primary reference)? I'm just genuinely curious because I've also heard it stated that we are net beneficaries. In any case the number seems rather large.

 

 

as i said earlier in the thread the source for these figures is Civitas

 

http://www.civitas.org.uk/eufacts/OS/OS13.htm

 

Primary source? Reputable? Likely to be impartial?

[Guest alex]

At the same time, there's no point in citing countries that are very different to the UK as a reason why we should leave the EU.

 

 

eh?

 

i didnt start this particular track of conversation and i didnt cite those countries. Renton did. He asked me a question to which i answered. I never for one moment held them up as a shinig example for why the UK should leave the eu. tbh, I'm not that bothered by the countries mentioned. however i do know for an absolute fact that this countrys NET spend to the eu is £40.5 billion per annum. Thats £40.5 billion which could be spent on things like the NHS for example. I also know that we are a NET importer of goods (ie we buy more material goods than we sell). therefore the eu would be stupid in the extreme to take a huff and stop selling us things. and even if by some miracle the eu did decide to stop selling us stuff then theres always the far east markets who would gladly take its place in terms of selling us stuff. at least they (the asians) wouldnt pretend we're all the same because of geographics.

I know he asked the question. Am I not allowed to comment on the answer like?

 

of course you can my friend but your comment implied that i had cited these particular countries 1st. I hadn't so i clarified the point. no offence was taken by your comment, only confusion.

How? I was only saying what I said because it was an irrelevent comparison. Iirc though you said there were loads of counties in Europe doing well outside the EU as part of your argument as to why the UK should leave. When you were asked which countries these were, it was pointed out they were very different to the UK, therefore not particularly relevent to the discussion. My own view on Europe is that, while we're better in than out there's a hell of a lot of bureaucratic waste etc. which should be sorted out but citing Switzerland and Norway is a bit pointless.

[AgentAxeman 189]

At the same time, there's no point in citing countries that are very different to the UK as a reason why we should leave the EU.

 

 

eh?

 

i didnt start this particular track of conversation and i didnt cite those countries. Renton did. He asked me a question to which i answered. I never for one moment held them up as a shinig example for why the UK should leave the eu. tbh, I'm not that bothered by the countries mentioned. however i do know for an absolute fact that this countrys NET spend to the eu is £40.5 billion per annum. Thats £40.5 billion which could be spent on things like the NHS for example. I also know that we are a NET importer of goods (ie we buy more material goods than we sell). therefore the eu would be stupid in the extreme to take a huff and stop selling us things. and even if by some miracle the eu did decide to stop selling us stuff then theres always the far east markets who would gladly take its place in terms of selling us stuff. at least they (the asians) wouldnt pretend we're all the same because of geographics.

 

That absolute fact of £40.5 billion net expenditure to the EU, have you got a reputable reference for it (i.e. not BNP or UKIP site, preferably a primary reference)? I'm just genuinely curious because I've also heard it stated that we are net beneficaries. In any case the number seems rather large.

 

 

as i said earlier in the thread the source for these figures is Civitas

 

http://www.civitas.org.uk/eufacts/OS/OS13.htm

 

Primary source? Reputable? Likely to be impartial?

 

http://www.civitas.org.uk/

 

they're supposed to have no political affiliation so i dont see any reason for them to 'massage the figures' (ie lie). have a look and decide for yourself.

[AgentAxeman 189]

At the same time, there's no point in citing countries that are very different to the UK as a reason why we should leave the EU.

 

 

eh?

 

i didnt start this particular track of conversation and i didnt cite those countries. Renton did. He asked me a question to which i answered. I never for one moment held them up as a shinig example for why the UK should leave the eu. tbh, I'm not that bothered by the countries mentioned. however i do know for an absolute fact that this countrys NET spend to the eu is £40.5 billion per annum. Thats £40.5 billion which could be spent on things like the NHS for example. I also know that we are a NET importer of goods (ie we buy more material goods than we sell). therefore the eu would be stupid in the extreme to take a huff and stop selling us things. and even if by some miracle the eu did decide to stop selling us stuff then theres always the far east markets who would gladly take its place in terms of selling us stuff. at least they (the asians) wouldnt pretend we're all the same because of geographics.

I know he asked the question. Am I not allowed to comment on the answer like?

 

of course you can my friend but your comment implied that i had cited these particular countries 1st. I hadn't so i clarified the point. no offence was taken by your comment, only confusion.

How? I was only saying what I said because it was an irrelevent comparison. Iirc though you said there were loads of counties in Europe doing well outside the EU as part of your argument as to why the UK should leave. When you were asked which countries these were, it was pointed out they were very different to the UK, therefore not particularly relevent to the discussion. My own view on Europe is that, while we're better in than out there's a hell of a lot of bureaucratic waste etc. which should be sorted out but citing Switzerland and Norway is a bit pointless.

 

 

ah right, got you now. did i say europe? im not certain that i did but i could have done in a pissed moment. I'll have a check back and look.....

 

 

Edit: "and yes, i would have us out of the eu. theres a lot of countries that deal with the eu on better terms than britain does atm so i dont see how it would be financial suicide."

 

I cant see any mention of European countries only. It was meant to mean worldwide. Ive no idea were the European only element came into it.

Edited February 26, 2010 by AgentAxeman

[Renton 22001]

At the same time, there's no point in citing countries that are very different to the UK as a reason why we should leave the EU.

 

 

eh?

 

i didnt start this particular track of conversation and i didnt cite those countries. Renton did. He asked me a question to which i answered. I never for one moment held them up as a shinig example for why the UK should leave the eu. tbh, I'm not that bothered by the countries mentioned. however i do know for an absolute fact that this countrys NET spend to the eu is £40.5 billion per annum. Thats £40.5 billion which could be spent on things like the NHS for example. I also know that we are a NET importer of goods (ie we buy more material goods than we sell). therefore the eu would be stupid in the extreme to take a huff and stop selling us things. and even if by some miracle the eu did decide to stop selling us stuff then theres always the far east markets who would gladly take its place in terms of selling us stuff. at least they (the asians) wouldnt pretend we're all the same because of geographics.

 

That absolute fact of £40.5 billion net expenditure to the EU, have you got a reputable reference for it (i.e. not BNP or UKIP site, preferably a primary reference)? I'm just genuinely curious because I've also heard it stated that we are net beneficaries. In any case the number seems rather large.

 

 

as i said earlier in the thread the source for these figures is Civitas

 

http://www.civitas.org.uk/eufacts/OS/OS13.htm

 

Primary source? Reputable? Likely to be impartial?

 

http://www.civitas.org.uk/

 

they're supposed to have no political affiliation so i dont see any reason for them to 'massage the figures' (ie lie). have a look and decide for yourself.

 

I'll have a look. At a quick glance they may describe themselves as non-partisan but they're certainly political (e.g. they want to abolish the NHS). That's why primary data would be much better, must be available from somewhere I'd think.

[NJS 4411]

How? I was only saying what I said because it was an irrelevent comparison. Iirc though you said there were loads of counties in Europe doing well outside the EU as part of your argument as to why the UK should leave. When you were asked which countries these were, it was pointed out they were very different to the UK, therefore not particularly relevent to the discussion. My own view on Europe is that, while we're better in than out there's a hell of a lot of bureaucratic waste etc. which should be sorted out but citing Switzerland and Norway is a bit pointless.

 

Comaprisons for the UK to anyone else in Europe apart from France and Germany are completley pointless imo.

[Renton 22001]

At the same time, there's no point in citing countries that are very different to the UK as a reason why we should leave the EU.

 

 

eh?

 

i didnt start this particular track of conversation and i didnt cite those countries. Renton did. He asked me a question to which i answered. I never for one moment held them up as a shinig example for why the UK should leave the eu. tbh, I'm not that bothered by the countries mentioned. however i do know for an absolute fact that this countrys NET spend to the eu is £40.5 billion per annum. Thats £40.5 billion which could be spent on things like the NHS for example. I also know that we are a NET importer of goods (ie we buy more material goods than we sell). therefore the eu would be stupid in the extreme to take a huff and stop selling us things. and even if by some miracle the eu did decide to stop selling us stuff then theres always the far east markets who would gladly take its place in terms of selling us stuff. at least they (the asians) wouldnt pretend we're all the same because of geographics.

I know he asked the question. Am I not allowed to comment on the answer like?

 

of course you can my friend but your comment implied that i had cited these particular countries 1st. I hadn't so i clarified the point. no offence was taken by your comment, only confusion.

How? I was only saying what I said because it was an irrelevent comparison. Iirc though you said there were loads of counties in Europe doing well outside the EU as part of your argument as to why the UK should leave. When you were asked which countries these were, it was pointed out they were very different to the UK, therefore not particularly relevent to the discussion. My own view on Europe is that, while we're better in than out there's a hell of a lot of bureaucratic waste etc. which should be sorted out but citing Switzerland and Norway is a bit pointless.

 

 

ah right, got you now. did i say europe? im not certain that i did but i could have done in a pissed moment. I'll have a check back and look.....

 

 

Edit: "and yes, i would have us out of the eu. theres a lot of countries that deal with the eu on better terms than britain does atm so i dont see how it would be financial suicide."

 

I cant see any mention of European countries only. It was meant to mean worldwide. Ive no idea were the European only element came into it.

 

Perhaps because we're European?

 

Can you name a country similar in size to the UK that operates successfully anywhere in the world and is not part of a larger trading block? Japan may be an example I guess but then again there are huge differences between us. Australia is another one but they have vast natural resources iirc.

[Guest alex]

At the same time, there's no point in citing countries that are very different to the UK as a reason why we should leave the EU.

 

 

eh?

 

i didnt start this particular track of conversation and i didnt cite those countries. Renton did. He asked me a question to which i answered. I never for one moment held them up as a shinig example for why the UK should leave the eu. tbh, I'm not that bothered by the countries mentioned. however i do know for an absolute fact that this countrys NET spend to the eu is £40.5 billion per annum. Thats £40.5 billion which could be spent on things like the NHS for example. I also know that we are a NET importer of goods (ie we buy more material goods than we sell). therefore the eu would be stupid in the extreme to take a huff and stop selling us things. and even if by some miracle the eu did decide to stop selling us stuff then theres always the far east markets who would gladly take its place in terms of selling us stuff. at least they (the asians) wouldnt pretend we're all the same because of geographics.

I know he asked the question. Am I not allowed to comment on the answer like?

 

of course you can my friend but your comment implied that i had cited these particular countries 1st. I hadn't so i clarified the point. no offence was taken by your comment, only confusion.

How? I was only saying what I said because it was an irrelevent comparison. Iirc though you said there were loads of counties in Europe doing well outside the EU as part of your argument as to why the UK should leave. When you were asked which countries these were, it was pointed out they were very different to the UK, therefore not particularly relevent to the discussion. My own view on Europe is that, while we're better in than out there's a hell of a lot of bureaucratic waste etc. which should be sorted out but citing Switzerland and Norway is a bit pointless.

 

 

ah right, got you now. did i say europe? im not certain that i did but i could have done in a pissed moment. I'll have a check back and look.....

 

 

Edit: "and yes, i would have us out of the eu. theres a lot of countries that deal with the eu on better terms than britain does atm so i dont see how it would be financial suicide."

 

I cant see any mention of European countries only. It was meant to mean worldwide. Ive no idea were the European only element came into it.

Ok but it's a pedantic point imo which doesn't alter my point about citing comparable nations. You weren't specific in any way, making your argument even more nebulous as I see it. Anyway, if you weren't on about European countries, it's a bit odd you only mentioned European countries, don't you think?

Edited February 26, 2010 by alex

[AgentAxeman 189]

Have you had a think yet which European countries are doing well outside the EU zone?

 

 

Norways doing pretty well.

 

"After World War II, Norway experienced rapid economic growth, with the first two decades due to the Norwegian shipping and merchant marine and domestic industrialization, and from the early 1970s, a result of exploiting large oil and natural gas deposits that had been discovered in the North Sea and the Norwegian Sea. Today, Norway ranks as the wealthiest country in the world in monetary value, with the largest capital reserve per capita of any nation. In August 2009 the nation's sovereign wealth fund announced that it owned approximately 1% of all the stocks in the world, presumably referring to publicly traded stocks. Norway is the world’s seventh largest oil exporter and the petroleum industry accounts for around a quarter of its GDP. Following the ongoing financial crisis of 2007–2010, bankers have deemed the Norwegian krone to be one of the most solid currencies in the world."

 

(source: wiki)

 

 

Renton, this is my original reply to your post. you didnt mention Norway or Switzerland in it

 

??????

[NJS 4411]

Renton, this is my original reply to your post. you didnt mention Norway or Switzerland in it

 

??????

 

That was his follow-up to his original which did like.

[AgentAxeman 189]

Ok but it's a pedantic point imo which doesn't alter my point about citing comparable nations. You weren't specific in any way, making your argument even more nebulous as I see it.

 

How so?

[AgentAxeman 189]

Renton, this is my original reply to your post. you didnt mention Norway or Switzerland in it

 

??????

 

That was his follow-up to his original which did like.

 

 

sorry. didnt see that one. i just replied to that particular post.

 

damn my eyes for not keeping up............

[Guest alex]

Ok but it's a pedantic point imo which doesn't alter my point about citing comparable nations. You weren't specific in any way, making your argument even more nebulous as I see it.

 

How so?

Like I said, which you ignored, you're suggesting you weren't on about European countries but your answer contained one so you obviously were on about then in part at least. This is getting silly now like. 'I never said this, I never said that.' If you made your point more clearly instead of being so nebulous for fear of being caught out I wouldn't have to make these assumptions.

Edited February 26, 2010 by alex

[Renton 22001]

Renton, this is my original reply to your post. you didnt mention Norway or Switzerland in it

 

??????

 

That was his follow-up to his original which did like.

 

 

sorry. didnt see that one. i just replied to that particular post.

 

damn my eyes for not keeping up............

 

Let you off.

[The Fish 10965]

Leazes, is it a "right-wing" thing or an "experienced" thing to be so hypocritical?

[Park Life 71]

At the same time, there's no point in citing countries that are very different to the UK as a reason why we should leave the EU.

 

 

eh?

 

i didnt start this particular track of conversation and i didnt cite those countries. Renton did. He asked me a question to which i answered. I never for one moment held them up as a shinig example for why the UK should leave the eu. tbh, I'm not that bothered by the countries mentioned. however i do know for an absolute fact that this countrys NET spend to the eu is £40.5 billion per annum. Thats £40.5 billion which could be spent on things like the NHS for example. I also know that we are a NET importer of goods (ie we buy more material goods than we sell). therefore the eu would be stupid in the extreme to take a huff and stop selling us things. and even if by some miracle the eu did decide to stop selling us stuff then theres always the far east markets who would gladly take its place in terms of selling us stuff. at least they (the asians) wouldnt pretend we're all the same because of geographics.

 

iirc Germany's last year was 30 billion euro.

 

 

sounds like an awful lot of germans are being screwed by their socialist masters. little wonder that nationalism is on the rise across the rich nations of europe.

 

All Govt's are set up to fail the people perpetually.

[LeazesMag 0]

Leazes, is it a "right-wing" thing or an "experienced" thing to be so hypocritical?

 

 

explain

[AgentAxeman 189]

Ok but it's a pedantic point imo which doesn't alter my point about citing comparable nations. You weren't specific in any way, making your argument even more nebulous as I see it. Anyway, if you weren't on about European countries, it's a bit odd you only mentioned European countries, don't you think?

 

 

Alex, Renton asked for european countries outside the Eu. how am i supposed to answer anything but european countries. keep up man!

[Guest alex]

Ok but it's a pedantic point imo which doesn't alter my point about citing comparable nations. You weren't specific in any way, making your argument even more nebulous as I see it. Anyway, if you weren't on about European countries, it's a bit odd you only mentioned European countries, don't you think?

 

 

Alex, Renton asked for european countries outside the Eu. how am i supposed to answer anything but european countries. keep up man!

Ok then, if you didn't mean European countries originally, which countries did you mean?

Edited February 27, 2010 by alex

[Renton 22001]

At the same time, there's no point in citing countries that are very different to the UK as a reason why we should leave the EU.

 

 

eh?

 

i didnt start this particular track of conversation and i didnt cite those countries. Renton did. He asked me a question to which i answered. I never for one moment held them up as a shinig example for why the UK should leave the eu. tbh, I'm not that bothered by the countries mentioned. however i do know for an absolute fact that this countrys NET spend to the eu is £40.5 billion per annum. Thats £40.5 billion which could be spent on things like the NHS for example. I also know that we are a NET importer of goods (ie we buy more material goods than we sell). therefore the eu would be stupid in the extreme to take a huff and stop selling us things. and even if by some miracle the eu did decide to stop selling us stuff then theres always the far east markets who would gladly take its place in terms of selling us stuff. at least they (the asians) wouldnt pretend we're all the same because of geographics.

 

That absolute fact of £40.5 billion net expenditure to the EU, have you got a reputable reference for it (i.e. not BNP or UKIP site, preferably a primary reference)? I'm just genuinely curious because I've also heard it stated that we are net beneficaries. In any case the number seems rather large.

 

 

as i said earlier in the thread the source for these figures is Civitas

 

http://www.civitas.org.uk/eufacts/OS/OS13.htm

 

I've had a brief dig around and can't see where Veritas got their data from, so so much for your 'absolute fact' - it's a moot point at best but probably just plain wrong.

 

Everything else I've read puts our net contribution as between 5 and 10 billion euro, about the same as France (which has recently increased its contribution) and significantly less than Germany. This graph is 4 years old but I'd love to know how there has been a ten fold increase since then. I'd suggest the huge trading benefits, as well as ease of transport, legal benefits, and intangible benefits etc, more than make up for our contribution.

 

 

Edit:

 

Btw, reading through the Civitas website, seriously AA, do you think they are impartial?

 

They're a right wing 'think tank' who are overtly euroskeptic and seemingly have close ties with Migration watch, another right wing think tank (whatever a think tank is). You can't present their views as unbiased.

 

What is it with these think tanks anyway? Remember when 'Policy Exchange' recommended the entire North of England should migrate to the South East?

Edited February 27, 2010 by Renton

[Park Life 71]

Germany since the start of the Nazi European fuck up your life new world order centralisation have contributed the most.

[AgentAxeman 189]

I've had a brief dig around and can't see where Veritas got their data from, so so much for your 'absolute fact' - it's a moot point at best but probably just plain wrong.

 

Everything else I've read puts our net contribution as between 5 and 10 billion euro, about the same as France (which has recently increased its contribution) and significantly less than Germany. This graph is 4 years old but I'd love to know how there has been a ten fold increase since then. I'd suggest the huge trading benefits, as well as ease of transport, legal benefits, and intangible benefits etc, more than make up for our contribution.

 

 

 

Btw, reading through the Civitas website, seriously AA, do you think they are impartial?

 

They're a right wing 'think tank' who are overtly euroskeptic and seemingly have close ties with Migration watch, another right wing think tank (whatever a think tank is). You can't present their views as unbiased.

 

Hate to tell you bud but your chart is 6 yrs out of date as are your figures

 

I'm not certain if Civitas are impartial and quite frankly im not bothered if they are or not. http://www.civitas.org.uk/eufacts/ They say it has been, in their words 'refereed by experts' from both sides of the european debate. link for said experts: http://www.civitas.org.uk/eufacts/credits.html .

 

How do Civitas 'seemingly' have close ties with Migration watch? would need a source to give that statement any creedence whatsoever.

 

Tbh Renton imo you are so far 'left wing' you see the middle ground as 'right wing'. Thats not a dig at you btw, I admire your dedication to your beliefs, just not your politik

[NJS 4411]

Hate to tell you bud but your chart is 6 yrs out of date as are your figures

 

4bn -> 40bn in 6 years?