MP expenses.

[Renton 22493]

I know I will get attacked for 'relevance' by Fop but I'm fairly sure other countries' political systems are much more corrupt than this one.

Possibly, but does that make it "ok"?

 

No, with human nature being what it is we need an oberhaul of the system imo, as I have already stated. It's just another issue I'm not prepared to get frantically worked up about.

[ChezGiven 0]

The same 'anger' dynamics at play here as during the Ross/Brand affair.

 

I'd like to see MP's on a basic wage of 200k, as thats at least what their market value is. A Dr. (GP) earns 100k in the UK and they look after what? 2000 people? If you benchmark salary versus responsibility in the public sector in the UK, adjust the salary upwards for the expenses claimed, uprate to the 'target taxable salary' required to earn the tax free expense, they are still underpaid for what they do.

 

What are we outraged at? The 'gaming' of a system? Or the absolute level of money earned by MPs? As the latter can easily be benchmarked against other public sector employees with far lower work burdens and far less resppnsibiity.

 

Yet again, the media drive an incoherent debate in the UK.

 

 

That would be a significant pay cut.

 

If they just got that (as Fop's said most are on ~£300,000 effective salary, with many breaching £400,000+ - not including their private interests, just what they are getting for being MPs).

 

 

Outraged? Are you saying tax evasion by democratically elected officials is ok?

 

The average salary is 65k

 

http://www.parliament.uk/faq/members_faq_page2.cfm

 

So the average expense claim per year is 235k per MP?

 

Er, no, its not.

 

Private interests are utterly irrelevant. Cant believe you and Parky (seemingly intelligent) would invoke private interests in a discussion on appropriate benchmarked remuneration.

 

Yes it is, it's not just those expenses that they get.

 

By the time you factor in all the other benefits, the tax breaks and tax free issues and other perks, it comes to equalling an effective salary of ~£300,000 for most MPs.

 

The £65,000 "wage" is a complete and utter decoy (as it is intended to be).

 

Also like Fop said the £300,000 is NOT including any private interest they may have (NOT INCLUDING). Ridiculous? Yes, but that's how it is.

 

Fop notices you avoided answering: Are you saying tax evasion by democratically elected officials is ok?

 

Thats why i employ PriceWaterHouse Coopers to do my tax return here in France, the system is there to use as you see fit without breaking the law. If tax evasion is legal, then yes. However, i think this 'flipping' nonsense is bad form and should be stopped.

 

You've just typed out numbers there, without any reference and said 'when you add things in, it comes out at my figure'. No, it doesnt. The average MP does not earn 300k when expense are accounted for. Thats just bullshit.

[Park Life 71]

Tax evasion is a red herring too when you benchmark their salaries. If they claim 40k per year, they should be getting 60k and paying tax instead. The debate is about what they should earn, not whether they game a system.

 

Is gaming a system really that outrageous when the absolute package is no higher than some bloke who runs a hospital?

 

FRANCIS MAUDE MP AND HIS OTHER HEAD IN THE TROUGH STUFF.

 

 

1. Remunerated directorships

Prestbury Holdings PLC (chairman); non-investment financial services.

The Mission Marketing Group (non-executive chairman from 1 February 2006); an advertising group.

UTEK Corporation Inc (non-executive); a technology transfer company based in the US and listed on the Alternative Investment Market in London.

2. Remunerated employment, office, profession etc

Member of Barclays' Asia-Pacific Advisory Committee.

4. Sponsorship or financial or material support

A donation received through Conservative Campaign Headquarters used to support my office in my capacity as Shadow Minister for the Cabinet Office from John Coldman. (Registered 15 May 2008)

Temporary secondment of a member of staff each by PricewaterhouseCoopers and Boston Consulting Group to the Conservative party's Implementation Team, which reports to me. (Registered 26 February 2009)

In 2008 the Horsham and Crawley Conservative Association received donations from the Horsham Parliamentary Dining Club of which I am chairman. (Registered 26 February 2009)

5. Gifts, benefits and hospitality (UK)

My wife and received tickets for the Conservative Party's 'Black and White Party' on 4 February 2009, paid for by Mr Christopher Moran, of London. (Registered 4 March 2009)

8. Land and Property

Interest in a residential investment property in France.

Rental income from property in South London.

 

 

Just printing money really. Av Dir secondment fee is around 25k per dir . So you can see here he's netting another 100k.

 

 

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/francis_m...orsham#register

Edited May 13, 2009 by Park Life

[Guest alex]

Reminds me, I must do my expenses this week.

[Park Life 71]

Reminds me, I must do my expenses this week.

 

Accontant does mine.

[ChezGiven 0]

To be clear, people are not outraged at the absolute level of overall pay, its the fact that the MPs have used the system in exactly the way they were meant to use it.

 

So, morally, whats the debate about? Surely the heart of the debate on the remuneration of public servants is that they receive a package in line with their responsibility? Anything else is just media driven incoherent rubbish.

[Renton 22493]

Reminds me, I must do my expenses this week.

 

Don't forget adding £25K for getting your turrets polished.

[Guest alex]

If it's as bad as the media would have you believe. The media haven't been doing their job very well, have they?

[Fop 1]

Got any links to verify what you're stating there Fop? It sounds like you are talking cobblers.

Read about it in a break down of what they get, was very interesting indeed (especially as few "outsiders" actually seem to have a clue about the whole thing), no idea if it's online, you'll have to google-fu.

 

They have some amazing tax breaks and tax free, pension perks and bonuses for other parliamentary work as well as expenses in this context.

 

The £65,000 "wage" is just a ridiculous decoy that they can point to and piously claim poverty (when, as Fop mentioned before, when compared to the wage the average person in the UK [not to be confused with the average UK wage ] is hardly breadline to start with).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It actually reminds me a lot of local government scamming where a councillors can massively inflate their income (not on this scale admittedly) by sitting on a few committee and often triple or more their "pay" for a few hours extra work.

[Park Life 71]

To be clear, people are not outraged at the absolute level of overall pay, its the fact that the MPs have used the system in exactly the way they were meant to use it.

 

So, morally, whats the debate about? Surely the heart of the debate on the remuneration of public servants is that they receive a package in line with their responsibility? Anything else is just media driven incoherent rubbish.

 

No they've clearly been caught taking the piss, hence the massive back track.

 

They have 2nd and 3rd jobs.

They claim all travel expenses and 2nd home costs.

They often make their wives or other family members their secretary or admin (another 30k allowance).

[Renton 22493]

Got any links to verify what you're stating there Fop? It sounds like you are talking cobblers.

Read about it in a break down of what they get, was very interesting indeed (especially as few "outsiders" actually seem to have a clue about the whole thing), no idea if it's online, you'll have to google-fu.

 

They have some amazing tax breaks and tax free, pension perks and bonuses for other parliamentary work as well as expenses in this context.

 

The £65,000 "wage" is just a ridiculous decoy that they can point to and piously claim poverty (when, as Fop mentioned before, when compared to the wage the average person in the UK [not to be confused with the average UK wage ] is hardly breadline to start with).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It actually reminds me a lot of local government scamming where a councillors can massively inflate their income (not on this scale admittedly) by sitting on a few committee and often triple or more their "pay" for a few hours extra work.

 

That's a no then.

[ewerk 31600]

Private interests are utterly irrelevant. Cant believe you and Parky (seemingly intelligent) would invoke private interests in a discussion on appropriate benchmarked remuneration.

 

Not when it takes up their time when they should be MPing supposedly. Shall we perhaps have a gander at their voting records?

 

If it impacts their work as an MP then they should be voted out at the next opportunity. However, in reality most people have no idea what their MP actually does or is supposed to do.

[Fop 1]

 

Fop notices you avoided answering: Are you saying tax evasion by democratically elected officials is ok?

 

Thats why i employ PriceWaterHouse Coopers to do my tax return here in France, the system is there to use as you see fit without breaking the law. If tax evasion is legal, then yes. However, i think this 'flipping' nonsense is bad form and should be stopped.

 

Clearly they aren't so sure it is legal (once they've been caught) as they are paying it back.

 

Although again I'm sure you'd say it is "legal" so long as no one catches you.

 

But again Fop would disagree that this is how democratically elected officials should act, they can work in the private sector if they want to do that.

 

You've just typed out numbers there, without any reference and said 'when you add things in, it comes out at my figure'. No, it doesnt. The average MP does not earn 300k when expense are accounted for. Thats just bullshit.

 

Again when everything is accounted for, yes that is what it effectively works out as, as a wage in another context.

 

That is to get everything an MP does (not just basic wage and expenses) you'd have to be on ~£300,000 a year.

[Fop 1]

Got any links to verify what you're stating there Fop? It sounds like you are talking cobblers.

Read about it in a break down of what they get, was very interesting indeed (especially as few "outsiders" actually seem to have a clue about the whole thing), no idea if it's online, you'll have to google-fu.

 

They have some amazing tax breaks and tax free, pension perks and bonuses for other parliamentary work as well as expenses in this context.

 

The £65,000 "wage" is just a ridiculous decoy that they can point to and piously claim poverty (when, as Fop mentioned before, when compared to the wage the average person in the UK [not to be confused with the average UK wage ] is hardly breadline to start with).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It actually reminds me a lot of local government scamming where a councillors can massively inflate their income (not on this scale admittedly) by sitting on a few committee and often triple or more their "pay" for a few hours extra work.

 

That's a no then.

 

It's an educate yourself if you don't believe Fop, or swallow the propaganda and live in ignorance if that makes you happier.

 

Frankly Fop has no idea of where you'd get such details online (if indeed they exist at all) as its a very closed world, look at how hard they fought to exempt themselves from the FOI act.

 

Maybe you could try www.mpswindleswedontwantthepublictocottononto.co.uk , that would be Fop's guess as a likely place to start.

[ChezGiven 0]

As Renton said, thats a no. You've plucked 300k out the air.

 

I dont need google-fu to show you the benchmark either.

 

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/poli...icle2848044.ece

[Fop 1]

Private interests are utterly irrelevant. Cant believe you and Parky (seemingly intelligent) would invoke private interests in a discussion on appropriate benchmarked remuneration.

 

Not when it takes up their time when they should be MPing supposedly. Shall we perhaps have a gander at their voting records?

 

If it impacts their work as an MP then they should be voted out at the next opportunity. However, in reality most people have no idea what their MP actually does or is supposed to do.

 

Which frankly is how they intend it.

 

Which is why they are so shit scared of MP "league tables" (votes, questions asked etc.), despite being for FOI and league tables in nearly every other context.

[Fop 1]

As Renton said, thats a no. You've plucked 300k out the air.

 

I dont need google-fu to show you the benchmark either.

 

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/poli...icle2848044.ece

 

Believe what you want, it's exactly what they want you to do after all.

 

 

 

 

 

But do you really honestly believe that £65,000 wage and expenses is all that MPs get? A simple yes or no will do.

[ChezGiven 0]

As Renton said, thats a no. You've plucked 300k out the air.

 

I dont need google-fu to show you the benchmark either.

 

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/poli...icle2848044.ece

 

Believe what you want, it's exactly what they want you to do after all.

 

 

 

 

 

But do you really honestly believe that £65,000 wage and expenses is all that MPs get? A simple yes or no will do.

 

No, i said they didnt expense claim 235k on average, which is the difference between the average wage and the figure you plucked out yer arse.

[Fop 1]

As Renton said, thats a no. You've plucked 300k out the air.

 

I dont need google-fu to show you the benchmark either.

 

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/poli...icle2848044.ece

 

Believe what you want, it's exactly what they want you to do after all.

 

 

 

 

 

But do you really honestly believe that £65,000 wage and expenses is all that MPs get? A simple yes or no will do.

 

No, i said they didnt expense claim 235k on average, which is the difference between the average wage and the figure you plucked out yer arse.

 

 

So you accept that they do get other things besides the £65,000 and expenses that they get, you just disagree on how much extra they get. Good.

 

 

 

 

 

Now out of interest how much extra do you think they get on top of that £65,000 and expenses (not just directly, but in tax breaks/free etc., and indeed extra parliamentary work)?

[Guest alex]

The point scoring aspect is obviously more important than the issue itself btw.

[Fop 1]

The point scoring aspect is obviously more important than the issue itself btw.

Chezzy's and Renton always do it and try to derail what is an otherwise interesting debate.

[Park Life 71]

The point scoring aspect is obviously more important than the issue itself btw.

Chezzy's and Renton always do it and try to derail what is an otherwise interesting debate.

 

And in this case they are doing it on purpose. This is clearly an issue of breach of trust and good practice.

[Happy Face 29]

Stephen Fry (as always) articulated my thoughts best when he said the only shocking thing here is that the outrage is enough to make the MP's grovell....something they'll not do over Iraq or ID cards or their reckless economic policy.

 

Let he who has not claimed a few miles extra for petrol write the first email to the sun "have your say" segment.

[Guest alex]

The point scoring aspect is obviously more important than the issue itself btw.

Chezzy's and Renton always do it and try to derail what is an otherwise interesting debate.

NSFW etc.

About time this borefest was derailed anyway.

[Guest alex]

Stephen Fry (as always) articulated my thoughts best when he said the only shocking thing here is that the outrage is enough to make the MP's grovell....something they'll not do over Iraq or ID cards or their reckless economic policy.

 

Let he who has not claimed a few miles extra for petrol write the first email to the sun "have your say" segment.

Quite.