Judge rules on Guantanamo strike

[Howaythelads 0]

Separates us from the Muslim Extremists you mean?

106608[/snapback]

 

Whatever.

 

Got anything else to contribute?

106609[/snapback]

Ok then, I'll contribute this, you're the fucking wanker rambo

106610[/snapback]

 

Righto. If you don't like what the West stands for Alex, you know what to do mate.

[Howaythelads 0]

And you know this FOR A FACT?

 

How about you define a DUBIOUS CIRCUMSTANCE? Please take into account that when these suspected terrorists are nabbed, the people doing the nabbing are under extreme pressure.  Pressure of having their head cut off with a rusty blade.

 

I would never claim we get it right all the time and I would never claim we have no bad apples. No doubt you believe we should be expected to get it right all the time and that we will never have any bad apples. Wake up and become a part of the real world, mate. 

 

This is no joking matter and shouldn't be taken lightly. Idealists  passing judgement on people living in dangerous circumstances, doing something they have no understanding of, would make me laugh if it wasn't so serious.

106581[/snapback]

 

The only fact reported in the documentary was that Guantanamo has housed 750 suspects over 5 years, 500 are still there, 10 have been charged, none have been convicted. Everything else was pesonal testimony and presented as such.

 

That one fact tells a story though. a cumulative 2500 years served on the strength of zero convictions.

 

EDIT: And no-one expects perfection. What you'd hope is that the bad apples are exposed and lessons are learnt. Not that anyone expressing an interest in finding out about it is shouted down as a wanker.

106585[/snapback]

 

The problem is that the way idealists such as yourself set about 'finding out about it' undermines the people we have working in these dangerous places. You put others lives at risk but you don't give a shit about any of our people having their heads cut off with a rusty blade, because you're not in the firing line. Try it, is my suggestion to you rather than just gobbing off.

[Guest alex]

People have been released from Guantanamo without any charges after years of incarceration. That much is a fact. And if you don't mind me saying so, the so-called 'idealists' who have issues with this know as much about what went on as you do HTL and just as much right to pass comment.

106584[/snapback]

 

I didn't say you have no right to comment. Making it up as you go along, eh. Deflects from the issue, like.

 

Anyway Alex, join up mate. Get a view of the real world.

106611[/snapback]

Aye, because only people who served in the British Armed forces have a reasoned view on global events like

[Howaythelads 0]

People have been released from Guantanamo without any charges after years of incarceration. That much is a fact. And if you don't mind me saying so, the so-called 'idealists' who have issues with this know as much about what went on as you do HTL and just as much right to pass comment.

106584[/snapback]

 

I didn't say you have no right to comment. Making it up as you go along, eh. Deflects from the issue, like.

 

Anyway Alex, join up mate. Get a view of the real world.

106611[/snapback]

Aye, because only people who served in the British Armed forces have a reasoned view on global events like

106614[/snapback]

 

Not at all. It would be good if those who spout off though would take the trouble to understand the consequences of their actions before undermining our people.

[Guest alex]

And you know this FOR A FACT?

 

How about you define a DUBIOUS CIRCUMSTANCE? Please take into account that when these suspected terrorists are nabbed, the people doing the nabbing are under extreme pressure.  Pressure of having their head cut off with a rusty blade.

 

I would never claim we get it right all the time and I would never claim we have no bad apples. No doubt you believe we should be expected to get it right all the time and that we will never have any bad apples. Wake up and become a part of the real world, mate. 

 

This is no joking matter and shouldn't be taken lightly. Idealists  passing judgement on people living in dangerous circumstances, doing something they have no understanding of, would make me laugh if it wasn't so serious.

106581[/snapback]

 

The only fact reported in the documentary was that Guantanamo has housed 750 suspects over 5 years, 500 are still there, 10 have been charged, none have been convicted. Everything else was pesonal testimony and presented as such.

 

That one fact tells a story though. a cumulative 2500 years served on the strength of zero convictions.

 

EDIT: And no-one expects perfection. What you'd hope is that the bad apples are exposed and lessons are learnt. Not that anyone expressing an interest in finding out about it is shouted down as a wanker.

106585[/snapback]

 

The problem is that the way idealists such as yourself set about 'finding out about it' undermines the people we have working in these dangerous places. You put others lives at risk but you don't give a shit about any of our people having their heads cut off with a rusty blade, because you're not in the firing line. Try it, is my suggestion to you rather than just gobbing off.

106613[/snapback]

How does challenging the human rights issues of a place like Guantanamo Bay undermine, for example, British troops working in Iraq?

[Isegrim 9771]

Yes, in an ideal world. And you're right, these ideals do separate us from the muslims and terrorists but I'm afraid sometimes you have to adopt different methods. This is what we have to do, otherwise we will see more bombs and more innocent people blown to pieces by these 'people'.

 

The fact is, terrorists have no respect for the law, in fact the desire of people in the West to uphold the law and maintain certain standards helps these cowards.

 

These are difficult times and people are working under very difficult circumstances that can by considered in no way to be normal. It's true that some innocent people will suffer and that's bad, but this is the way of it when the battle is against terrorists who hide behind innocent people.

106606[/snapback]

 

I don't think we have to alter our methods in the slightest to convict a terrorist because of a crime.

 

And I don't think that a place run like Guantanmo makes another terrorist less likely. In fact I think it makes future terrorist attacks more likely, because it is a symbol that enrages fundamentalistic lunatics even more. And it helps to recruit new people because they just have to mention the name 'Guantanamo'. There are just 500 detainees at Guantanamo and only very few alleged high rank terrorists from Al Qaida or the Taliban. But I think the number of people recruited as new terrorists because of Guantanamo is about ten times the numbers of the actual detainees. And they are the people we really have to fear.

[Guest alex]

I love the way HTL can't make a distinction between Muslim extremists and other Muslims yet feels able to lecture us civilians on 'the truth'.

[adios 717]

Yes, in an ideal world. And you're right, these ideals do separate us from the muslims and terrorists but I'm afraid sometimes you have to adopt different methods. This is what we have to do, otherwise we will see more bombs and more innocent people blown to pieces by these 'people'.

 

The fact is, terrorists have no respect for the law, in fact the desire of people in the West to uphold the law and maintain certain standards helps these cowards.

 

These are difficult times and people are working under very difficult circumstances that can by considered in no way to be normal. It's true that some innocent people will suffer and that's bad, but this is the way of it when the battle is against terrorists who hide behind innocent people.

 

What annoys me are arsewipes who post the kind of anti-West drivel I see in this thread, they're too stupid to realise that the very principles they're undermining are those that allow them to post their shite. If they really think we're so bad my advice to them is that they piss off and join those they clearly support. Hunting around to find any snippet of information that can be used to undermine the role of our people in this battle is showing support for the terrorists in my eyes. It increases their strength against the West and they know it too.

106606[/snapback]

 

What a brave little soldier. Do you think the fact that you have practically no chance of being affected by these human rights violations might have anything to do with it?

 

You seem a bit dismissive of the difference between muslims and muslim terrorists, would that be a little like the terrorists being indifferent to the difference between civilian and military targets?

 

And do you think if we took away the motives of these terrorists that they would continue to do it, for kicks maybe?

[Gemmill 44848]

They drew first blood, NOT ME!

[Happy Face 29]

What annoys me are arsewipes who post the kind of anti-West drivel I see in this thread, they're too stupid to realise that the very principles they're undermining are those that allow them to post their shite. If they really think we're so bad my advice to them is that they piss off and join those they clearly support. Hunting around to find any snippet of information that can be used to undermine the role of our people in this battle is showing support for the terrorists in my eyes. It increases their strength against the West and they know it too.

106606[/snapback]

 

If you want to be governed by a system where people (innocent or not) are locked up, abused or killed without trial why don't you piss off to a country where that kind of thing is acceptable.

[Happy Face 29]

In fact, let's say the methods are entirely justified. If we are "going to find them folks what done this" we need to be tough. Champion. Abuse the shit out of them, but don't you thing we should have the decency to apologise & compensate detainees for their time and energy if released without charge?

[Radgina 1]

In fact, let's say the methods are entirely justified.  If we are "going to find them folks what done this" we need to be tough.  Champion.  Abuse the shit out of them, but don't you thing we should have the decency to apologise & compensate detainees for their time and energy if released without charge?

106662[/snapback]

 

 

How about we throw this in the hat.....watched Real Story last night in which they were talking to "victims" of the Sharm-el- sheikh and Bali terrorist bombings. Altho victims of both 9/11 and 7/7 have received charitable and compensatory help from the government the victims of terrorism abroad have received nothing, not even counselling for PTS disorder. A man whose son was killed in Sharm-el-sheikh has taken it upon himself on behalf of other vicims and their families to try and gain some recompense...the advice he was given by Mr Straw was to sue the "perpetrators"...in his own words how the hell do you sue a suicide bomber !! In the same vein an Australian who was injured in the bombings has received financial help from his government, is being treated at a private medical institution with all bills paid and has had his home and car re-structured for his injuries at his governments expense .

So as far as compensation for some stupid kids who "decided" to nip over to Afghanistan to see what the craic was and have some huge Naan breads????? goes I think you may find many people against it.

[Howaythelads 0]

And you know this FOR A FACT?

 

How about you define a DUBIOUS CIRCUMSTANCE? Please take into account that when these suspected terrorists are nabbed, the people doing the nabbing are under extreme pressure.  Pressure of having their head cut off with a rusty blade.

 

I would never claim we get it right all the time and I would never claim we have no bad apples. No doubt you believe we should be expected to get it right all the time and that we will never have any bad apples. Wake up and become a part of the real world, mate. 

 

This is no joking matter and shouldn't be taken lightly. Idealists  passing judgement on people living in dangerous circumstances, doing something they have no understanding of, would make me laugh if it wasn't so serious.

106581[/snapback]

 

The only fact reported in the documentary was that Guantanamo has housed 750 suspects over 5 years, 500 are still there, 10 have been charged, none have been convicted. Everything else was pesonal testimony and presented as such.

 

That one fact tells a story though. a cumulative 2500 years served on the strength of zero convictions.

 

EDIT: And no-one expects perfection. What you'd hope is that the bad apples are exposed and lessons are learnt. Not that anyone expressing an interest in finding out about it is shouted down as a wanker.

106585[/snapback]

 

The problem is that the way idealists such as yourself set about 'finding out about it' undermines the people we have working in these dangerous places. You put others lives at risk but you don't give a shit about any of our people having their heads cut off with a rusty blade, because you're not in the firing line. Try it, is my suggestion to you rather than just gobbing off.

106613[/snapback]

How does challenging the human rights issues of a place like Guantanamo Bay undermine, for example, British troops working in Iraq?

106619[/snapback]

 

[Howaythelads 0]

Yes, in an ideal world. And you're right, these ideals do separate us from the muslims and terrorists but I'm afraid sometimes you have to adopt different methods. This is what we have to do, otherwise we will see more bombs and more innocent people blown to pieces by these 'people'.

 

The fact is, terrorists have no respect for the law, in fact the desire of people in the West to uphold the law and maintain certain standards helps these cowards.

 

These are difficult times and people are working under very difficult circumstances that can by considered in no way to be normal. It's true that some innocent people will suffer and that's bad, but this is the way of it when the battle is against terrorists who hide behind innocent people.

106606[/snapback]

 

I don't think we have to alter our methods in the slightest to convict a terrorist because of a crime.

 

And I don't think that a place run like Guantanmo makes another terrorist less likely. In fact I think it makes future terrorist attacks more likely, because it is a symbol that enrages fundamentalistic lunatics even more. And it helps to recruit new people because they just have to mention the name 'Guantanamo'. There are just 500 detainees at Guantanamo and only very few alleged high rank terrorists from Al Qaida or the Taliban. But I think the number of people recruited as new terrorists because of Guantanamo is about ten times the numbers of the actual detainees. And they are the people we really have to fear.

106620[/snapback]

 

Pure conjecture, I'm afraid. These people are indoctrinated from an early age, their recruitment has absolutely zero to do with Guantanamo.

[Howaythelads 0]

I love the way HTL can't make a distinction between Muslim extremists and other Muslims yet feels able to lecture us civilians on 'the truth'.

106625[/snapback]

 

What are you babbling on about now, Alex? I'm a civilian mate, same as you. The difference is that I have some pride in my country and what we stand for, you prefer to slag it off at every opportunity.

 

As I said earlier, you know where to go.

[Howaythelads 0]

What annoys me are arsewipes who post the kind of anti-West drivel I see in this thread, they're too stupid to realise that the very principles they're undermining are those that allow them to post their shite. If they really think we're so bad my advice to them is that they piss off and join those they clearly support. Hunting around to find any snippet of information that can be used to undermine the role of our people in this battle is showing support for the terrorists in my eyes. It increases their strength against the West and they know it too.

106606[/snapback]

 

If you want to be governed by a system where people (innocent or not) are locked up, abused or killed without trial why don't you piss off to a country where that kind of thing is acceptable.

106649[/snapback]

 

Err, but I don't. According to people such as yourself though, I already live in such a country. Wouldn't it be an eye opener for people like you if this country really was like that.

[Howaythelads 0]

In fact, let's say the methods are entirely justified.  If we are "going to find them folks what done this" we need to be tough.  Champion.  Abuse the shit out of them, but don't you thing we should have the decency to apologise & compensate detainees for their time and energy if released without charge?

106662[/snapback]

 

Possibly.

[LeazesMag 0]

The Road to Guantanamo

 

More4 9pm

created huge international impact and won the prestigious Silver Bear for Direction for Winterbottom and Mat Whitecross in competition at The 56th Berlin International Film Festival.

 

In this compelling docudrama by Michael Winterbottom and Mat Whitecross, the 'Tipton Three' narrate their own experiences in America's controversial offshore detention camp

 

The Road To Guantánamo opens with archive footage of George W Bush, flanked by a stern-faced Tony Blair, declaring his certain knowledge that all the detainees held in Guantánamo are "bad people". Everything that follows is designed to turn these words inside out, as three young British Muslims tell the story of how they came to be in US custody at Guantánamo for over two years, and discuss the Kafkaesque horrors that awaited them there, until finally they were released without charge or apology.

 

The title may evoke the Bing Crosby and Bob Hope 'Road' movies of the 1940s, travel-themed musical comedies with a vaguely racist depiction of non-Americans, but the exotic journey embarked upon by the so-called 'Tipton Three' was to take them into areas that were politically incorrect in an altogether different way.

 

About to get married in Pakistan, Birmingham lad Asif Iqbal (Usman) invites his friends Ruhal Ahmed (Harun) and Shafiq Rasul (Ahmed) to join him there for a holiday. Accompanied by another friend called Monir (Siddiqui) and Shafiq's cousin Zahid (Iqbal), they head into Afghanistan, hoping to offer humanitarian aid to their fellow Muslims and to see the place for themselves.

 

After several weeks, they realise they've made a terrible mistake and try to head back to Pakistan, instead ending up under heavy bombardment near Kundun. Separated from Monir (who is never seen again), they become captives of the Northern Alliance in the notorious Sheberghan Prison. Once it is discovered that the three friends are English, they are at first relieved to find themselves handed over to American custody; but in fact their nightmare is only just beginning, as they are passed from Kandahar Airbase to Camp X-Ray, from Camp Delta to solitary confinement, facing mistreatment, injustice and endless, pointless interrogations.

 

In The Road To Guantánamo, the misadventures of Asif, Ruhel and Shafiq are vividly reconstructed by actors, while at the same time anchored to reality by the intercutting of extensive interviews with the real trio, as well as occasional barrages of archival news footage. The result is an utterly devastating, gripping portrayal of innocents abroad falling foul of both large-scale international events and a US policy that seems cruel, inhuman and willfully blind, with the three men's testimonies a stark reminder that the awful, often darkly surreal events unfolding on screen actually took place.

 

'Intelligence' comes out of this film looking almost comically stupid. The interrogators are entirely convinced of their captives' guilt, but seem less sure of (and indeed less interested in) easily verifiable details like who the detainees are, what language they speak, and whether they were actually in England (under well-documented police probation) at the time that the interrogators insist they were meeting Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan.

 

What the three actually have to say is rarely heeded, while manipulative lies, brutalisation, beatings, stress positions, and months of solitary confinement are regularly employed to persuade them of the interrogators' point of view. Of course such abuses will come as little surprise to anyone reading the newspapers, but to see them re-enacted (albeit with a certain restraint), and to hear the victims' personal accounts, has a much greater impact than the written word, putting paid to America's claims that the treatment of so-called 'enemy combatants' is, as Donald Rumsfeld puts it, "humane and appropriate and consistent with the Geneva Convention for the most part."

 

It would be easy to criticise The Road to Guantánamo for being one-sided (it is), and for failing to contextualise the conduct of the US (there is not even a passing mention of 9/11), but such objections miss the point. Many times Bush, Blair and other politicians have used their considerable public platforms to present a similarly partisan, at times even subsequently discredited justification for different aspects of their 'War on Terror', including the unlimited detention without trial of men like the Tipton Three. The trio, and the more than 800 prisoners who remain at America's Cuban base, were not able to communicate their version of events to a lawyer or judge, let alone to the outside world. The Road To Guantánamo gives them their day in court, and the story these "bad people" tell is one that well deserves a hearing.

 

Verdict

Gripping, nightmarish, and at times bleakly funny, The Road To Guantánamo is far too important a personal testimony to go unheard.

 

9.81/10

106370[/snapback]

 

can't believe anyone could believe such an absolute load of complete shite

 

The amount of people with middle east sympathies ..... that won't go and live there

[Howaythelads 0]

can't believe anyone could believe such an absolute load of complete shite

 

The amount of people with middle east sympathies ..... that won't go and live there

106675[/snapback]

 

Well they wouldn't, would they! They wouldn't be allowed to bleat on the way they do.

[LeazesMag 0]

What annoys me are arsewipes who post the kind of anti-West drivel I see in this thread, they're too stupid to realise that the very principles they're undermining are those that allow them to post their shite. If they really think we're so bad my advice to them is that they piss off and join those they clearly support. Hunting around to find any snippet of information that can be used to undermine the role of our people in this battle is showing support for the terrorists in my eyes. It increases their strength against the West and they know it too.

106606[/snapback]

 

If you want to be governed by a system where people (innocent or not) are locked up, abused or killed without trial why don't you piss off to a country where that kind of thing is acceptable.

106649[/snapback]

 

Err, but I don't. According to people such as yourself though, I already live in such a country. Wouldn't it be an eye opener for people like you if this country really was like that.

106673[/snapback]

 

..... not to mention supporting the people who would make it exactly that

[Isegrim 9771]

Yes, in an ideal world. And you're right, these ideals do separate us from the muslims and terrorists but I'm afraid sometimes you have to adopt different methods. This is what we have to do, otherwise we will see more bombs and more innocent people blown to pieces by these 'people'.

 

The fact is, terrorists have no respect for the law, in fact the desire of people in the West to uphold the law and maintain certain standards helps these cowards.

 

These are difficult times and people are working under very difficult circumstances that can by considered in no way to be normal. It's true that some innocent people will suffer and that's bad, but this is the way of it when the battle is against terrorists who hide behind innocent people.

106606[/snapback]

 

I don't think we have to alter our methods in the slightest to convict a terrorist because of a crime.

 

And I don't think that a place run like Guantanmo makes another terrorist less likely. In fact I think it makes future terrorist attacks more likely, because it is a symbol that enrages fundamentalistic lunatics even more. And it helps to recruit new people because they just have to mention the name 'Guantanamo'. There are just 500 detainees at Guantanamo and only very few alleged high rank terrorists from Al Qaida or the Taliban. But I think the number of people recruited as new terrorists because of Guantanamo is about ten times the numbers of the actual detainees. And they are the people we really have to fear.

106620[/snapback]

 

Pure conjecture, I'm afraid. These people are indoctrinated from an early age, their recruitment has absolutely zero to do with Guantanamo.

106669[/snapback]

 

What? People like the 9/11 terrorists from Hamburg who weren't indoctrinated from the early age at all? Those people Mohammed Atta could recruit in Jormany? I don't know much about the London-terrorists, but when did their indoctrination start and when and why were they prepared to kill themselves for the cause of Islam?

 

Terrorists need a concept of the enemy, and in this case it gets boosted by a symbolic place like Guantanamo whose practical value is very little. Of course do the terrorist cells need fresh blood (especially as they keep decimating themselves on purpose). So recruitment plays a big part in the strategy and you need people willing to get indoctrinated.

Edited March 14, 2006 by Isegrim

[Happy Face 29]

What annoys me are arsewipes who post the kind of anti-West drivel I see in this thread, they're too stupid to realise that the very principles they're undermining are those that allow them to post their shite. If they really think we're so bad my advice to them is that they piss off and join those they clearly support. Hunting around to find any snippet of information that can be used to undermine the role of our people in this battle is showing support for the terrorists in my eyes. It increases their strength against the West and they know it too.

106606[/snapback]

 

If you want to be governed by a system where people (innocent or not) are locked up, abused or killed without trial why don't you piss off to a country where that kind of thing is acceptable.

106649[/snapback]

 

Err, but I don't. According to people such as yourself though, I already live in such a country. Wouldn't it be an eye opener for people like you if this country really was like that.

106673[/snapback]

 

Well if you don't, why are you condoning that behaviour from your own and other goverments? I never suggested you already live in such a country, we have a fine tradition of law and order based on our courts of law and trial by jury, but if the abuse of human rights isn't commented upon and highlighted it will only get worse.

 

You're like one of them 16 year old lasses with a little shit for a bairn who won't have a word said against it. Sit their pissing yourselfself laughing while it's effing and blinding around the bus and getting all offended when someone suggests you discipline the bairn. The type of bairn that grows up to be a twocking charver.

 

It's not unpatriotic to slag off your government. It is unpatriotic to let them break the basic human rights my Granda fought for.

[Happy Face 29]

..... not to mention supporting the people who would make it exactly that

106680[/snapback]

 

 

"You're either with us, or against us!" is that it? It's not quite that simple mate.

[adios 717]

Cheers for the recommendation HF, just had a wee look, and it was educational.

[Happy Face 29]

In fact, let's say the methods are entirely justified.  If we are "going to find them folks what done this" we need to be tough.  Champion.  Abuse the shit out of them, but don't you thing we should have the decency to apologise & compensate detainees for their time and energy if released without charge?

106662[/snapback]

 

 

How about we throw this in the hat.....watched Real Story last night in which they were talking to "victims" of the Sharm-el- sheikh and Bali terrorist bombings. Altho victims of both 9/11 and 7/7 have received charitable and compensatory help from the government the victims of terrorism abroad have received nothing, not even counselling for PTS disorder. A man whose son was killed in Sharm-el-sheikh has taken it upon himself on behalf of other vicims and their families to try and gain some recompense...the advice he was given by Mr Straw was to sue the "perpetrators"...in his own words how the hell do you sue a suicide bomber !! In the same vein an Australian who was injured in the bombings has received financial help from his government, is being treated at a private medical institution with all bills paid and has had his home and car re-structured for his injuries at his governments expense .

So as far as compensation for some stupid kids who "decided" to nip over to Afghanistan to see what the craic was and have some huge Naan breads????? goes I think you may find many people against it.

106664[/snapback]

 

That's a disgrace.

 

They're jipping the victims on a technicality I suppose, those victims weren't the responsibility of the British government at the time. Did British victims of 9/11 get compensation from the British or American government? American I guess otherwise the precedent would have been there. Never watched it like so that may be presumptious.

 

However stupid those lads might have been though, they suffered directly at the hands of the British and American governments. Whether citizens abroad should be compensated by their own country is another matter.