Drugs - Time to legalise - The Economist

[Gejon 2]

This isn't being sarcastid or being a dick but an honest question.

 

Were cigarettes ever illegal? If not then it can't really be compared (imo) as there isn't already a business in place that is being taken away. The drug dealers probably wouldn't just give up and quit, I would imagine they would try to under cut to stay in business as mentioned above.

 

If they were illegal, ignore me, I am stupid

[Douggy B 0]

Legalisation and taxation probably wouldnt work cos it would be a nightmare to legislate and any street dealer will be able to undercut the legal rrp.

Don't you think that if this was the full picture people wouldn't buy cigarettes from newsagents they'd just get them from illegal street vendors.

 

yeah cause that never happens does it?

[Ketsbaia 0]

Some piss poor excuses in the arguments for legalisation on here Lets legalise heroin cos it means drug dealers dont get the money!? What about the hundreds of thousands who would get addicted and still turn to crime to fund the habit? Drugs dont become less addictive if you make them more widely available.

 

As for alcohol, id raise the drinking age to 21 and charge £7 a pint. Bet that would half the police and hospitals work load overnight

 

Never said we should legalise heroin outright, although it is fact that about 500 people in the whole country were dependant on heroin prior to it being banned. These people continued to lead normal lives and live just as long as other people. Children's novelist Enid Bagnold lived to 91 and spent the final dozen years of her life injecting 350mg of heroin a day after a hip operation while still living quite happily and not mugging anyone. It was banned in this country because of pressure from the US (who themselves banned it based on lies from unqualified professionals. The input of doctors and people who worked with it was all but ignored) and one or two scandals in this country involving the illegal sale of it. When it was banned it was pushed into the hands of dealers and those who had been addicted had to start paying for it and were forced into crime to try and pay for their habit. Not only that but people who weren't addicted to heroin were suddenly being pushed this amazing new wonder drug by their dealers and became addicted. Prices go up, as does the number of addicted parties as does the problem.

 

The classic appearance of a heroin addict - gaunt, pale, living in squalor etc. is not brought on by the drug itself but by the way heroin addicts have to live to feed their dependancy. There is absolutely no medical evidence that heroin has a negative physical or mental effect on the person using it (barring the occasional bout of nausea and constipation). Paracetamol is more dangerous that heroin. The biggest problem with heroin is that it's hugely addictive and they are forced to buy it at the price no matter how high set by the dealers. Those dealers cut the drug with other chemicals which you really shouldn't be putting into your body, like drain cleaner or sawdust causing all manner of problems for the user - most of which will see them in a hospital being seen to by your good self J69.

 

There are many other drugs out there, alot of which do have negative effects on the physical health of people. Two of the largest culprits are on sale in your local corner shop. I personally believe that we should legalise the lot and allow the general public to pick and choose. The money stays away from the crims and goes back into government coffers allowing them to put it to good use.

 

The 'war against drugs' is not being waged for our own good but because it's a vote winner. We're constantly told drugs are a cause of all the worlds ills and not a symptom. We fill our prisons up with people who have done nothing wrong other than become helplessly addicted to a substance. If you put the cold hard facts in the hands of Joe Public and allow them to decide whether drugs should be legalised or not when the votes are cast we'd see every party do a 180 degree turn on their policy towards drugs. Gordon Brown will be telling us how he popped 17 E's and had an all night session with Judge Jules when he went to Ibiza, Call Me Dave will be telling us how he often spent nights alone toking on his bong and trying to synch up Dark Side of the Moon with the Wizard of Oz. Christ, we'll not be able to get moved for Lib Dem MPs wanting to tell us how they snorted a line of a rent boys boner.

 

Criminalisation of drugs strikes me as bizarre if not downright callous. In the words of Nick Davies: "You have to go back to the trenches of Flanders to find generals who have been so incompetent, so dishonest, so awesomely destructive towards those for whom they claim to care."

 

Sorry for the rant.

[Ketsbaia 0]

This isn't being sarcastid or being a dick but an honest question.

 

Were cigarettes ever illegal? If not then it can't really be compared (imo) as there isn't already a business in place that is being taken away. The drug dealers probably wouldn't just give up and quit, I would imagine they would try to under cut to stay in business as mentioned above.

 

If they were illegal, ignore me, I am stupid

 

How though? I've used drugs before and i've known dealers. Your average street dealer makes fuck all off the drugs they sell in the grand scheme of things - this idea that all dealers are flush with money is completely bogus.

 

Drugs filter down from the people at the top. As they filter down they're cut with more and more stuff so the product suffers but the price goes up. The government would be at the top of said chain if it was legal so not only would the price be lower than your average dealer but the quality would be much better.

[trophyshy 7083]

"drugs are for cunts"

 

burn all your music then you narrow minded fucking knob.

Edited March 8, 2009 by trophyshy

[Douggy B 0]

There is absolutely no medical evidence that heroin has a negative physical or mental effect on the person using it

[Gejon 2]

Some piss poor excuses in the arguments for legalisation on here Lets legalise heroin cos it means drug dealers dont get the money!? What about the hundreds of thousands who would get addicted and still turn to crime to fund the habit? Drugs dont become less addictive if you make them more widely available.

 

As for alcohol, id raise the drinking age to 21 and charge £7 a pint. Bet that would half the police and hospitals work load overnight

 

Never said we should legalise heroin outright, although it is fact that about 500 people in the whole country were dependant on heroin prior to it being banned. These people continued to lead normal lives and live just as long as other people. Children's novelist Enid Bagnold lived to 91 and spent the final dozen years of her life injecting 350mg of heroin a day after a hip operation while still living quite happily and not mugging anyone. It was banned in this country because of pressure from the US (who themselves banned it based on lies from unqualified professionals. The input of doctors and people who worked with it was all but ignored) and one or two scandals in this country involving the illegal sale of it. When it was banned it was pushed into the hands of dealers and those who had been addicted had to start paying for it and were forced into crime to try and pay for their habit. Not only that but people who weren't addicted to heroin were suddenly being pushed this amazing new wonder drug by their dealers and became addicted. Prices go up, as does the number of addicted parties as does the problem.

 

The classic appearance of a heroin addict - gaunt, pale, living in squalor etc. is not brought on by the drug itself but by the way heroin addicts have to live to feed their dependancy. There is absolutely no medical evidence that heroin has a negative physical or mental effect on the person using it (barring the occasional bout of nausea and constipation). Paracetamol is more dangerous that heroin. The biggest problem with heroin is that it's hugely addictive and they are forced to buy it at the price no matter how high set by the dealers. Those dealers cut the drug with other chemicals which you really shouldn't be putting into your body, like drain cleaner or sawdust causing all manner of problems for the user - most of which will see them in a hospital being seen to by your good self J69.

 

There are many other drugs out there, alot of which do have negative effects on the physical health of people. Two of the largest culprits are on sale in your local corner shop. I personally believe that we should legalise the lot and allow the general public to pick and choose. The money stays away from the crims and goes back into government coffers allowing them to put it to good use.

 

The 'war against drugs' is not being waged for our own good but because it's a vote winner. We're constantly told drugs are a cause of all the worlds ills and not a symptom. We fill our prisons up with people who have done nothing wrong other than become helplessly addicted to a substance. If you put the cold hard facts in the hands of Joe Public and allow them to decide whether drugs should be legalised or not when the votes are cast we'd see every party do a 180 degree turn on their policy towards drugs. Gordon Brown will be telling us how he popped 17 E's and had an all night session with Judge Jules when he went to Ibiza, Call Me Dave will be telling us how he often spent nights alone toking on his bong and trying to synch up Dark Side of the Moon with the Wizard of Oz. Christ, we'll not be able to get moved for Lib Dem MPs wanting to tell us how they snorted a line of a rent boys boner.

 

Criminalisation of drugs strikes me as bizarre if not downright callous. In the words of Nick Davies: "You have to go back to the trenches of Flanders to find generals who have been so incompetent, so dishonest, so awesomely destructive towards those for whom they claim to care."

 

Sorry for the rant.

 

Quality post.

 

If anything I would say I was anti-drugs but I wouldn't say I was against making them legal and controlling them a lot better. Plus money going to the govermnent would be better than funding crime further.

[Ketsbaia 0]

There is absolutely no medical evidence that heroin has a negative physical or mental effect on the person using it

 

I know it seems laughable but that's the truth. There isn't a jot of evidence. If you think or know otherwise please try and find it.

[Douggy B 0]

There is absolutely no medical evidence that heroin has a negative physical or mental effect on the person using it

 

I know it seems laughable but that's the truth. There isn't a jot of evidence. If you think or know otherwise please try and find it.

 

overdoses don't occur on your planet?

[Ketsbaia 0]

There is absolutely no medical evidence that heroin has a negative physical or mental effect on the person using it

 

I know it seems laughable but that's the truth. There isn't a jot of evidence. If you think or know otherwise please try and find it.

 

overdoses don't occur on your planet?

 

Of course they do. The point i'm trying to make is someone taking shots of pure heroin on a regular basis wont suffer any ill effects because of it.

 

On the subject of ODing I feel I need to whack this quote in from a doctor who has prescribed heroin for over 30 years: "I think that most doctors would tell you that paracetamol is actually quite a dangerous drug when used in overdose, it has a fixed upper limit for its total dose in 24 hours and if you exceed that, perhaps doubling it, you can certainly put yourself at great risk of liver failure and of death, whereas with diamorphine, should you double the dose that you normally were taking, I think the consequence would be to be sleepy for a while and quite possibly not much more than that and certainly no permanent damage as a result."

[Douggy B 0]

There is a lot of hippy bollocks being spouted in this thread.

 

I have seen drugs have a very detrimental affect on peoples health who I grew up with.

 

Some aren't with us today. I know alcohol is just as bad but it doesnt make legalising other drugs any more attractive an option.

[Ketsbaia 0]

There is a lot of hippy bollocks being spouted in this thread.

 

I have seen drugs have a very detrimental affect on peoples health who I grew up with.

 

Some aren't with us today. I know alcohol is just as bad but it doesnt make legalising other drugs any more attractive an option.

 

Hippy bollocks, but truthful hippy bollocks none the less.

[Douggy B 0]

There is absolutely no medical evidence that heroin has a negative physical or mental effect on the person using it

 

I know it seems laughable but that's the truth. There isn't a jot of evidence. If you think or know otherwise please try and find it.

 

overdoses don't occur on your planet?

 

Of course they do. The point i'm trying to make is someone taking shots of pure heroin on a regular basis wont suffer any ill effects because of it.

 

On the subject of ODing I feel I need to whack this quote in from a doctor who has prescribed heroin for over 30 years: "I think that most doctors would tell you that paracetamol is actually quite a dangerous drug when used in overdose, it has a fixed upper limit for its total dose in 24 hours and if you exceed that, perhaps doubling it, you can certainly put yourself at great risk of liver failure and of death, whereas with diamorphine, should you double the dose that you normally were taking, I think the consequence would be to be sleepy for a while and quite possibly not much more than that and certainly no permanent damage as a result."

 

Ha ha what a load of bollocks. A doctor who prescribed heroin defends his decision *shocker.*

[The Fish 10857]

Legalisation and taxation probably wouldnt work cos it would be a nightmare to legislate and any street dealer will be able to undercut the legal rrp.

Don't you think that if this was the full picture people wouldn't buy cigarettes from newsagents they'd just get them from illegal street vendors.

 

yeah cause that never happens does it?

Try reading a post Daniel. My point was that legalisation and taxation hasn't stopped the illegal trade of cigarettes, but you can bet your last buck it would be far worse if cigarettes were not legal. If price was the only motivating factor nobody would buy from a newsagents.

[Ketsbaia 0]

There is absolutely no medical evidence that heroin has a negative physical or mental effect on the person using it

 

I know it seems laughable but that's the truth. There isn't a jot of evidence. If you think or know otherwise please try and find it.

 

overdoses don't occur on your planet?

 

Of course they do. The point i'm trying to make is someone taking shots of pure heroin on a regular basis wont suffer any ill effects because of it.

 

On the subject of ODing I feel I need to whack this quote in from a doctor who has prescribed heroin for over 30 years: "I think that most doctors would tell you that paracetamol is actually quite a dangerous drug when used in overdose, it has a fixed upper limit for its total dose in 24 hours and if you exceed that, perhaps doubling it, you can certainly put yourself at great risk of liver failure and of death, whereas with diamorphine, should you double the dose that you normally were taking, I think the consequence would be to be sleepy for a while and quite possibly not much more than that and certainly no permanent damage as a result."

 

Ha ha what a load of bollocks. A doctor who prescribed heroin defends his decision *shocker.*

 

I was hoping to have a bit of a mental tet-a-tet with you but obviously you've got nothing to back up your opinion, hence your flippant response to a qualified professional's opinion.

[Douggy B 0]

There is a lot of hippy bollocks being spouted in this thread.

 

I have seen drugs have a very detrimental affect on peoples health who I grew up with.

 

Some aren't with us today. I know alcohol is just as bad but it doesnt make legalising other drugs any more attractive an option.

 

Hippy bollocks, but truthful hippy bollocks none the less.

 

no it isnt, saying people wont suffer health problems if the take pure heroin? Its tripe.

 

If you inject heroin you are eventually going to experience endocarditis, cellulitis and whole list of mental health issues.

 

yes prescription drugs arent perfect but they serve a purpose.

Edited March 8, 2009 by Danny B

[trophyshy 7083]

Life is filled with casualties. It is far too easy to blame drugs....people get themselves in a mess for millions of reasons and often drugs help people to deal with being fucked up by other things.

 

Life is fucking messy and you can't tell me it would be easier without any drugs.

 

How about an acknowledgement of how drugs have enriched your life? Even if you never took them? Think about the bands you love, the inspiration you get from amazing music and art. You think they were all teetotal?

 

He who makes a beast of himself eases the burden of being a man.

 

Perhaps all pleasure is only relief.

 

It is depressingly unsurprising to me that Danny B, fop and J69 are all staunch anti drug types.

[Ketsbaia 0]

There is a lot of hippy bollocks being spouted in this thread.

 

I have seen drugs have a very detrimental affect on peoples health who I grew up with.

 

Some aren't with us today. I know alcohol is just as bad but it doesnt make legalising other drugs any more attractive an option.

 

Hippy bollocks, but truthful hippy bollocks none the less.

 

no it isnt, saying people wont suffer health problems if the take pure heroin? Its tripe.

 

If you inject heroin you are eventually going to experience endocarditis, cellulits and whole list of metal health issues.

 

yes prescription drugs arent perfect but they serve a purpose.

 

They are problems with the method of taking it than with the drug itself. You could get those illness' from injecting Dettol into you.

 

There are alternatives such as snorting and smoking it if the 'injecting' part is what is bothering you.

Edited March 8, 2009 by Ketsbaia

[Douggy B 0]

Life is filled with casualties. It is far too easy to blame drugs....people get themselves in a mess for millions of reasons and often drugs help people to deal with being fucked up by other things.

 

Life is fucking messy and you can't tell me it would be easier without any drugs.

 

How about an acknowledgement of how drugs have enriched your life? Even if you never took them? Think about the bands you love, the inspiration you get from amazing music and art. You think they were all teetotal?

 

He who makes a beast of himself eases the burden of being a man.

 

Perhaps all pleasure is only relief.

 

It is depressingly unsurprising to me that Danny B, fop and J69 are all staunch anti drug types.

 

I really dont get this attitude, just because some bands are heavily into drugs doesnt mean they would be crap without them, or would have created less of a body of works.

 

Mate I am not anti drugs, I have taken enough of them in my life but I really dont think legalising them and making them readily available is a good idea either.

 

A lot of drugs are very addictive and very harmful. That is a fact.

 

And PLEASE. dont lump me in with the nob heads.

[The Fish 10857]

Nothing quite like that Dettol high.

[Douggy B 0]

There is a lot of hippy bollocks being spouted in this thread.

 

I have seen drugs have a very detrimental affect on peoples health who I grew up with.

 

Some aren't with us today. I know alcohol is just as bad but it doesnt make legalising other drugs any more attractive an option.

 

Hippy bollocks, but truthful hippy bollocks none the less.

 

no it isnt, saying people wont suffer health problems if the take pure heroin? Its tripe.

 

If you inject heroin you are eventually going to experience endocarditis, cellulits and whole list of metal health issues.

 

yes prescription drugs arent perfect but they serve a purpose.

 

They are problems with the method of taking it than with the drug itself. You could get those illness' from injecting Dettol into you.

 

There are alternatives such as snorting and smoking it if the 'injecting' part is what is bothering you.

 

No it is the addiction and subsequent inability to function like a normal human being that is bothering me.

Edited March 8, 2009 by Danny B

[Ketsbaia 0]

There is a lot of hippy bollocks being spouted in this thread.

 

I have seen drugs have a very detrimental affect on peoples health who I grew up with.

 

Some aren't with us today. I know alcohol is just as bad but it doesnt make legalising other drugs any more attractive an option.

 

Hippy bollocks, but truthful hippy bollocks none the less.

 

no it isnt, saying people wont suffer health problems if the take pure heroin? Its tripe.

 

If you inject heroin you are eventually going to experience endocarditis, cellulits and whole list of metal health issues.

 

yes prescription drugs arent perfect but they serve a purpose.

 

They are problems with the method of taking it than with the drug itself. You could get those illness' from injecting Dettol into you.

 

There are alternatives such as snorting and smoking it if the 'injecting' part is what is bothering you.

 

No it is the addiction and subsequent inability to function like a normal human being that is bothering me.

 

You can function like a normal human being on heroin, that's the point. You can take a hit and go on about your business, it's when your body starts to withdraw that you become a quivering wreck unable to do anything at all. The sheer addictiveness is the best reason why doing heroin isn't a good idea in the first place but it's a myth that it turns your brain into mush.

 

You really should've layed off Grange Hill when you were a young'un.

Edited March 9, 2009 by Ketsbaia

[Ayatollah Hermione 13869]

Yes but how can a door be a jar?

[The Fish 10857]

It's almost like this issue is too wide in scope and complexity to be solved in a late night debate on a football associated forum...

[trophyshy 7083]

Life is filled with casualties. It is far too easy to blame drugs....people get themselves in a mess for millions of reasons and often drugs help people to deal with being fucked up by other things.

 

Life is fucking messy and you can't tell me it would be easier without any drugs.

 

How about an acknowledgement of how drugs have enriched your life? Even if you never took them? Think about the bands you love, the inspiration you get from amazing music and art. You think they were all teetotal?

 

He who makes a beast of himself eases the burden of being a man.

 

Perhaps all pleasure is only relief.

 

It is depressingly unsurprising to me that Danny B, fop and J69 are all staunch anti drug types.

 

I really dont get this attitude, just because some bands are heavily into drugs doesnt mean they would be crap without them, or would have created less of a body of works.

 

Mate I am not anti drugs, I have taken enough of them in my life but I really dont think legalising them and making them readily available is a good idea either.

 

A lot of drugs are very addictive and very harmful. That is a fact.

 

And PLEASE. dont lump me in with the nob heads.

 

 

You live in London you pillock, they ARE readily available. (edit:I'm assuming you do, could be wrong)

 

The debate about if your favourite acts would create so much without drugs is moot. The Osmonds never touched a drop though.

 

Yes harmful, yes addictive, yes NEVER going away so why the hell put them in such a dumb place...underground and in the hands of villains!? It's just immature and careless to the vulnerable. It's a cop out basically.

 

I can't believe you called J69 and fop nobheads. Are you SURE you gave up drugs?

Edited March 9, 2009 by trophyshy