Drugs - Time to legalise - The Economist

[wykikitoon 20120]

Or anything else that can be grown naturally.

 

The underlying issue is personal choice/responsibility and the control of that by states - my view is that the fact that drugs were only declared illegal when their use spread to the masses show that control is the reason not health.

So you would legalise Heroin?

[Dr Gloom 21912]

yes it is.

 

why should the government have the right to tell me i can't enjoy something that grows naturally on the earth?

 

ridiculous.

[ChezGiven 0]

You missed the point spectacularly.

 

It was suggested

 

Alcohol - bad for you - legal

Drugs - bad for you - illegal

 

So why not make drugs legal too

 

Which is the type of spasticated logic this country uses

 

Except that isn't the logic that was used. The argument that was used drew upon the poiltical and moral philosophy of Aristotle who was the first writer and thinker to describe the principle of fairness requiring equal situations to be treated equally. The principles of 'law' are not ad hoc, based on history or the childish algebra of someone willfully mis-representing an argument. They are based on fundamental principles which are arrived at through careful thought. I was listening to a judge being interviewed on Radio 4 this morning and he said in every case, the judge must ask 'what is the principle at stake in this case'. For substances, the principle is harm. From this principle, the arguments relating to alcohol are very relevant and the arguments against decriminalisation look weak and incoherent.

 

Nice use of the word spastic btw, do you use that when disagreeing with your colleagues in the NHS?

[Renton 21592]

Or anything else that can be grown naturally.

 

The underlying issue is personal choice/responsibility and the control of that by states - my view is that the fact that drugs were only declared illegal when their use spread to the masses show that control is the reason not health.

Perhaps but health is an issue too. Apart from psychiatric problems that can definitely be related to cannabis and skunk in particular, there's the issue that it would increase tobacco consumption and lead to massive increases in cardiovascular and cancer related issues. Then there's the dope driving issue which I think is very serious.

 

What responsible government would legalise and therefore normalize it? Apart from those crazy Dutch, obviously.

[ChezGiven 0]

Uruguayans, Spanish, Colarado, Washington.....

[Renton 21592]

yes it is.

 

why should the government have the right to tell me i can't enjoy something that grows naturally on the earth?

 

ridiculous.

I love how you seem to equate natural with good btw. Heroine is natural, you want to legalise that?

 

The government stops lots of things being legalise, stop being a sixth former about it.

[Dr Gloom 21912]

Perhaps but health is an issue too. Apart from psychiatric problems that can definitely be related to cannabis and skunk in particular, there's the issue that it would increase tobacco consumption and lead to massive increases in cardiovascular and cancer related issues. Then there's the dope driving issue which I think is very serious.

 

What responsible government would legalise and therefore normalize it? Apart from those crazy Dutch, obviously.

 

you can enjoy it without mixing it with tobacco, another one that kills more than most other drugs and that is legal.

 

it's legal to posses dope in two american states incidentally.

[Alex 35064]

You missed the point spectacularly.

 

It was suggested

 

Alcohol - bad for you - legal

Drugs - bad for you - illegal

 

So why not make drugs legal too

 

Which is the type of spasticated logic this country uses

That's not quite the point you made, even if that was what you meant. You were arguing that making alcohol illegal was more logical than making drugs legal. It clearly isn't for the reasons I've given, i.e. it's completely unworkable and would cause more harm than good. On the other hand, I think certain changes in the drug laws could be beneficial to society as a whole. No one thinks for a moment there's some magic cure, it's just some people think criminalising (often vulnerable) people whilst lining the pockets of gangsters isn't the best way forward. There's also the obvious point that there isn't a 'one size fits all' approach because things like cannabis, cocaine and heroin are very different.

Also, I don't think anyone is actually using the 'spasticated logic' you're accusing them of. It's just the type of lazy thinking which allows you kid yourself you're morally and intellectually superior to others without properly engaging with them. Whatever you might suppose I think about you and whatever arguments we've had in the past I think you're capable of being much more insightful than that.

[NJS 4378]

So you would legalise Heroin?

It's a stretch as obviously a chemical process is required unlike weed or mushrooms but the point remains. Looking back at the start of this thread I did say that the notion that hundreds of thousands would start to use heroin seems like nonsense to me and I think it would remain a "hardcore" choice anyway.

 

A lot of people have decided by their actions that they feel the drug laws are pointless - that contemptuous widespread use seems to be limited to weed, speed in various forms and regrettfully coke. I think there's a "natural" lack of appeal of heroin that legalisation wouldn't relax.

[ChezGiven 0]

Its legal to smoke it in the home in Belgium.

 

Doesn't really count as its not really a country.

[Dr Gloom 21912]

I love how you seem to equate natural with good btw. Heroine is natural, you want to legalise that?

 

The government stops lots of things being legalise, stop being a sixth former about it.

 

heroin isn't natural. it's processed.

 

opium is natural.

 

i'd legalise both.

[Kid Dynamite 7025]

 

Except that isn't the logic that was used. The argument that was used drew upon the poiltical and moral philosophy of Aristotle who was the first writer and thinker to describe the principle of fairness requiring equal situations to be treated equally. The principles of 'law' are not ad hoc, based on history or the childish algebra of someone willfully mis-representing an argument. They are based on fundamental principles which are arrived at through careful thought. I was listening to a judge being interviewed on Radio 4 this morning and he said in every case, the judge must ask 'what is the principle at stake in this case'. For substances, the principle is harm. From this principle, the arguments relating to alcohol are very relevant and the arguments against decriminalisation look weak and incoherent.

 

Nice use of the word spastic btw, do you use that when disagreeing with your colleagues in the NHS?

Now who is misrepresenting? I said the country as a whole used 'spasticated logic'. I didn't call a person a spastic. Good of you to bring my job up and try to stir though you horrible cunt

[Renton 21592]

Uruguayans, Spanish, Colarado, Washington.....

The long term effects of the Colorado experience might be interesting.

[Renton 21592]

 

heroin isn't natural. it's processed.

 

opium is natural.

 

i'd legalise both.

Again your obsession with processed goods. Cannabis requires cultivation with uv lights in this country, hardly natural, whatever that means.

 

So okay, you'd legalise heroine. Fair enough. I think that's idiotic but we'll agree to disagree.

[ChezGiven 0]

Now who is misrepresenting? I said the country as a whole used 'spasticated logic'. I didn't call a person a spastic. Good of you to bring my job up and try to stir though you horrible cunt

 

You said an "argument was suggested in this thread" and then described the logic "in derogatory terms". You were therefore using that term to describe the people representing that argument.

 

You don't seem to have a very good grasp of logic, nor how to argue without throwing childish insults.

[Dr Gloom 21912]

Again your obsession with processed goods. Cannabis requires cultivation with uv lights in this country, hardly natural, whatever that means.

 

So okay, you'd legalise heroine. Fair enough. I think that's idiotic but we'll agree to disagree.

 

you said heroin was natural, i was just being a smart arse.

 

marijuana grows naturally in the earth. it was put here for a reason, as was opium.

[Kid Dynamite 7025]

No I wasn't, and everyone knows I wasn't.

 

Stick to snorting coke in your million pound houses with you banker friends you colossal arsehole

[Holden McGroin 6582]

No I wasn't, and everyone knows I wasn't.

 

Stick to snorting coke in your million pound houses with you banker friends you colossal arsehole

 

You sound jealous.

[Renton 21592]

 

you said heroin was natural, i was just being a smart arse.

 

marijuana grows naturally in the earth. it was put here for a reason, as was opium.

I'm a pharmacologist. It's very easy to convert opium into heroine (diamorphine), your distinction of synthetic is arbitrary and pointless. And now it sounds like you are a creationist.

[ClubSpinDoctor 0]

Tbf that sounds like more fun than pinball

[Alex 35064]

Perhaps but health is an issue too. Apart from psychiatric problems that can definitely be related to cannabis and skunk in particular, there's the issue that it would increase tobacco consumption and lead to massive increases in cardiovascular and cancer related issues. Then there's the dope driving issue which I think is very serious.

 

What responsible government would legalise and therefore normalize it? Apart from those crazy Dutch, obviously.

A few things:

I think moral arguments are problematic because everyone has a different take on morality but my point of view would be that the mental health problems caused by cannabis are not necessarily improved by its being illegal. I would cite cannabis use in this country as a perfect example of this. It's illegal but loads of people do it and relatively few encounter serious problems.

Your point about increased tobacco use isn't one I particularly subscribe to either. It presupposes that legalisation (or more correctly decriminalisation) would lead to make consumption. I don't think that's true because I believe they smoke less in Holland than we do. I also think more honest education (which applies to drugs in general) would help, i.e. make it clear to people that it's a lot less damaging to smoke dope on its own as opposed to with tobacco. Some people will ignore that anyway but at least treat them like adults and let them make their own mind up.

As to the last bit, there are dozens of countries where possession of cannabis is decriminalised or tolerated including several EU countries (Netherlands, Belgium, Portugal) as well as places like Canada, parts of Australia and America. Even places like Russia.

[Meenzer 15518]

 

marijuana grows naturally in the earth. it was put here for a reason, as was opium.

 

Now that opens up a whole different can of worms.

[NJS 4378]

I'm a pharmacologist. It's very easy to convert opium into heroine (diamorphine), your distinction of synthetic is arbitrary and pointless. And now it sounds like you are a creationist.

I think the non-creationist view is that throughout our existence, humans have sought out the planet's hallucongenics so controlling them seems "unnatural" in that sense.

[adios 717]

Don't worry, you're not invited.

Patiently awaiting my invite.

[ewerk 30569]

 

Now that opens up a whole different can of worms.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xN0jy0wvs8s