Ferguson: No where in the world has support like Newcastle United

[Fop 1]

But, what if there was a parallell universe where Robson had went to, say, Leeds. At Leeds, he was a total failure and never managed again. Therefore, he is a dreadful manager. If you're going to use what if's to cling on to an argument that everyone has ripped to bits, you should be able to look at the other side of the coin for Robson. Surely you can see how ridiculous your argument deriding a manager that has won upwards of 20 major trophies because he didn't do it at a poor club is? Actually...

 

What if that had anything to do with what is actually being discussed here?

[Ayatollah Hermione 14094]

But, what if there was a parallell universe where Robson had went to, say, Leeds. At Leeds, he was a total failure and never managed again. Therefore, he is a dreadful manager. If you're going to use what if's to cling on to an argument that everyone has ripped to bits, you should be able to look at the other side of the coin for Robson. Surely you can see how ridiculous your argument deriding a manager that has won upwards of 20 major trophies because he didn't do it at a poor club is? Actually...

 

What if that had anything to do with what is actually being discussed here?

 

Surely if you're using where Ferguson didn't go as a manager to criticise him, I can do the same with Robson?

[Fop 1]

I think you can only judge people on the jobs they've done though tbf, not the jobs they could maybe have done under different circumstances at different clubs.

 

True, but like I said Fergy has been great at managing Man U with a lot of support and mullah from the club, which makes him a great Man U manager (maybe the greatest?) and a certainly one of the greatest British managers.

 

But THE greatest British manager (or THE greatest manager to have managed in a British league even)? Nope - for the reasons mentioned. Could he have been? Maybe.

I think there's a strong argument he is. I think there are a few people in the same boat. Robson isn't one of them though.

 

It depends how you define it, if it is purely by number of cups and titles, then more so, yes.

 

But the fact is if you define Fergy by those criteria then you must also define NUFC by those criteria, which makes us an unsuccessful and generally rubbish club (does Renton believe this? I guess he must).

 

Personally I don't believe either.

I think the case for Ferguson (to my mind) rests on his doing it at two different clubs. You also have to look at where both those clubs were before he arrived and how wildly succesful both were under his stewardship. He's also done it at a relatively small club and a huge one and you face two different sets of challenges and pressures with that. There are things he hasn't done but every manager has gaps in their cv you could point at.

As an aside it's an absolute disgrace Bob Paisley (another candidate) was never knighted.

 

Which makes his one of, but not THE, like I have repeatedly said.

 

Aberdeen had been doing well prior to his take over, and whilst he did very well with them, it wasn't like he brought them from nothing, he inherited a decent side capable of a lot - they'd finished 2nd just before he took over, having been unbeaten for the entire 2nd half of that season.

 

Man U was punching well below its weight when he took over, had a decent team anyway, and he spent a LOT in those early years (he's always spent a lot, as well as getting some bargains and having a great youth development/recruitment system before other cottoned on, but later on he's usually got quite a bit back too).

 

For him to be THE greatest he'd have to be head and shoulder above the rest, but he's not. Because he hasn't done a lot of things and because of his managerial weaknesses as well (although he's "good" enough to realise and masks them most of the time).

[Guest alex]

Who is THE greatest then?

[Fop 1]

But, what if there was a parallell universe where Robson had went to, say, Leeds. At Leeds, he was a total failure and never managed again. Therefore, he is a dreadful manager. If you're going to use what if's to cling on to an argument that everyone has ripped to bits, you should be able to look at the other side of the coin for Robson. Surely you can see how ridiculous your argument deriding a manager that has won upwards of 20 major trophies because he didn't do it at a poor club is? Actually...

 

What if that had anything to do with what is actually being discussed here?

 

Surely if you're using where Ferguson didn't go as a manager to criticise him, I can do the same with Robson?

 

Ignoring that this is yet more arguing for the sake of it from you (you clearly have no interest in the actual point only arguing with Fop, fortunately it's still fun ) with a few very, very poor strawman "arguments".

 

There are 3 main points you're tripping yourself up with:

 

 

 

 

 

 

1. You're not trying to contrast what Ferguson hasn't done not with what Robson has done, but rather with some made up world of make believe..... which like I said has nothing to do with what is actually being discussed here.

 

2. You're compound this strawman by claim that I said Ferguson is a "dreadful manager", when in fact the opposite is true.

 

3. You're drawing a false measurement to trophies without context, which means you (like Renton) believe that NUFC has been completely unsuccessful and a dismal failure over the years, as only wining trophies and the number matter.

 

 

Basically you're not contributing a lot.

Edited March 10, 2009 by Fop

[Fop 1]

Who is THE greatest then?

I'm not sure there is one, I'm just sure Fergy isn't it.

[Guest Stevie]

I think you can only judge people on the jobs they've done though tbf, not the jobs they could maybe have done under different circumstances at different clubs.

 

True, but like I said Fergy has been great at managing Man U with a lot of support and mullah from the club, which makes him a great Man U manager (maybe the greatest?) and a certainly one of the greatest British managers.

 

But THE greatest British manager (or THE greatest manager to have managed in a British league even)? Nope - for the reasons mentioned. Could he have been? Maybe.

I think there's a strong argument he is. I think there are a few people in the same boat. Robson isn't one of them though.

 

It depends how you define it, if it is purely by number of cups and titles, then more so, yes.

 

But the fact is if you define Fergy by those criteria then you must also define NUFC by those criteria, which makes us an unsuccessful and generally rubbish club (does Renton believe this? I guess he must).

 

Personally I don't believe either.

I think the case for Ferguson (to my mind) rests on his doing it at two different clubs. You also have to look at where both those clubs were before he arrived and how wildly succesful both were under his stewardship. He's also done it at a relatively small club and a huge one and you face two different sets of challenges and pressures with that. There are things he hasn't done but every manager has gaps in their cv you could point at.

As an aside it's an absolute disgrace Bob Paisley (another candidate) was never knighted.

 

Which makes his one of, but not THE, like I have repeatedly said.

 

Aberdeen had been doing well prior to his take over, and whilst he did very well with them, it wasn't like he brought them from nothing, he inherited a decent side capable of a lot - they'd finished 2nd just before he took over, having been unbeaten for the entire 2nd half of that season.

 

Man U was punching well below its weight when he took over, had a decent team anyway, and he spent a LOT in those early years (he's always spent a lot, as well as getting some bargains and having a great youth development/recruitment system before other cottoned on, but later on he's usually got quite a bit back too).

 

For him to be THE greatest he'd have to be head and shoulder above the rest, but he's not. Because he hasn't done a lot of things and because of his managerial weaknesses as well (although he's "good" enough to realise and masks them most of the time).

They had a team of overpaid, under disciplined had beens who lacked motivation, that is a fact. I think Fergie knew things would have to get worse before they got better, and granted he did spend a lot of money and got no where for 3 years, but he ultimately changed the culture of the club, laying foundations and platform for them to become the club they are today. McGrath and Strachan were top top players, but for varying reasons he didn't see them as part of the new structure. Their team wasn't that good at all, English football was terrible at the time, they had players like Ralph Milne, Giuliano Maiorana, Russell Beardsmore, players that were almost finished like Arthur Albiston and Ashley Grimes. What he did was lay so many platforms all based on discipline, I don't think he could ever be classed as the greatest tactician even though it's a strong hand of his, but without doubt he is the greatest at laying foundations based on discipline, structure and (something that we have never had) long term plans not necessarily just in terms of silverware neither. Overall my feeling is due to how he has done it Wenger is the greatest he is an absolute inspiration, he has grown Arsenal organically, spending next to fuck all, playing breath taking football, it's very difficult to say one is better than the other in my view but one thing is certain, you are talking shit Fop.

[Guest alex]

Who is THE greatest then?

I'm not sure there is one, I'm just sure Fergy isn't it.

Tbf Fop, I agree with the first bit. It's very hard to say because all debates like this are down to opinions based on very subjective criteria. However, I think it makes no sense to say for 'sure' Ferguson isn't the greatest without having some candidates who have much better claims on that title.

[Guest alex]

I think you can only judge people on the jobs they've done though tbf, not the jobs they could maybe have done under different circumstances at different clubs.

 

True, but like I said Fergy has been great at managing Man U with a lot of support and mullah from the club, which makes him a great Man U manager (maybe the greatest?) and a certainly one of the greatest British managers.

 

But THE greatest British manager (or THE greatest manager to have managed in a British league even)? Nope - for the reasons mentioned. Could he have been? Maybe.

I think there's a strong argument he is. I think there are a few people in the same boat. Robson isn't one of them though.

 

It depends how you define it, if it is purely by number of cups and titles, then more so, yes.

 

But the fact is if you define Fergy by those criteria then you must also define NUFC by those criteria, which makes us an unsuccessful and generally rubbish club (does Renton believe this? I guess he must).

 

Personally I don't believe either.

I think the case for Ferguson (to my mind) rests on his doing it at two different clubs. You also have to look at where both those clubs were before he arrived and how wildly succesful both were under his stewardship. He's also done it at a relatively small club and a huge one and you face two different sets of challenges and pressures with that. There are things he hasn't done but every manager has gaps in their cv you could point at.

As an aside it's an absolute disgrace Bob Paisley (another candidate) was never knighted.

 

Which makes his one of, but not THE, like I have repeatedly said.

 

Aberdeen had been doing well prior to his take over, and whilst he did very well with them, it wasn't like he brought them from nothing, he inherited a decent side capable of a lot - they'd finished 2nd just before he took over, having been unbeaten for the entire 2nd half of that season.

 

Man U was punching well below its weight when he took over, had a decent team anyway, and he spent a LOT in those early years (he's always spent a lot, as well as getting some bargains and having a great youth development/recruitment system before other cottoned on, but later on he's usually got quite a bit back too).

 

For him to be THE greatest he'd have to be head and shoulder above the rest, but he's not. Because he hasn't done a lot of things and because of his managerial weaknesses as well (although he's "good" enough to realise and masks them most of the time).

They had a team of overpaid, under disciplined had beens who lacked motivation, that is a fact. I think Fergie knew things would have to get worse before they got better, and granted he did spend a lot of money and got no where for 3 years, but he ultimately changed the culture of the club, laying foundations and platform for them to become the club they are today. McGrath and Strachan were top top players, but for varying reasons he didn't see them as part of the new structure. Their team wasn't that good at all, English football was terrible at the time, they had players like Ralph Milne, Giuliano Maiorana, Russell Beardsmore, players that were almost finished like Arthur Albiston and Ashley Grimes. What he did was lay so many platforms all based on discipline, I don't think he could ever be classed as the greatest tactician even though it's a strong hand of his, but without doubt he is the greatest at laying foundations based on discipline, structure and (something that we have never had) long term plans not necessarily just in terms of silverware neither. Overall my feeling is due to how he has done it Wenger is the greatest he is an absolute inspiration, he has grown Arsenal organically, spending next to fuck all, playing breath taking football, it's very difficult to say one is better than the other in my view but one thing is certain, you are talking shit Fop.

I think Wenger is much more likeable because of the way he's done it. In a way though his unbending philosophy is a bit of a weakness too. I love Wenger for that same philosophy though. I see him as a romantic, like KK, and that's what football should be all about imo. It isn't like.

Edited March 10, 2009 by alex

[Fop 1]

They had a team of overpaid, under disciplined had beens who lacked motivation, that is a fact. I think Fergie knew things would have to get worse before they got better, and granted he did spend a lot of money and got no where for 3 years, but he ultimately changed the culture of the club, laying foundations and platform for them to become the club they are today. McGrath and Strachan were top top players, but for varying reasons he didn't see them as part of the new structure. Their team wasn't that good at all, English football was terrible at the time, they had players like Ralph Milne, Giuliano Maiorana, Russell Beardsmore, players that were almost finished like Arthur Albiston and Ashley Grimes. What he did was lay so many platforms all based on discipline, I don't think he could ever be classed as the greatest tactician even though it's a strong hand of his, but without doubt he is the greatest at laying foundations based on discipline, structure and (something that we have never had) long term plans not necessarily just in terms of silverware neither. Overall my feeling is due to how he has done it Wenger is the greatest he is an absolute inspiration, he has grown Arsenal organically, spending next to fuck all, playing breath taking football, it's very difficult to say one is better than the other in my view but one thing is certain, you are talking shit Fop.

 

 

So you agree with Fop (that he's not THE greatest) and say Fop is talking shit..... I guess that mean you're talking shit Stevie.... although that is perhaps a paradox too far.....

[Fop 1]

Who is THE greatest then?

I'm not sure there is one, I'm just sure Fergy isn't it.

Tbf Fop, I agree with the first bit. It's very hard to say because all debates like this are down to opinions based on very subjective criteria. However, I think it makes no sense to say for 'sure' Ferguson isn't the greatest without having some candidates who have much better claims on that title.

There's quite a few, but like I said they'd all be one of, like Fergy.

 

Is he the most successful Premier League manager? Yes, but that only means.. well.... that.

[Guest alex]

A post like that from Stevie and that's all you could focus on

[Fop 1]

A post like that from Stevie and that's all you could focus on

True though, isn't it.

[Guest alex]

You're a complete froot loop.

[Guest Stevie]

They had a team of overpaid, under disciplined had beens who lacked motivation, that is a fact. I think Fergie knew things would have to get worse before they got better, and granted he did spend a lot of money and got no where for 3 years, but he ultimately changed the culture of the club, laying foundations and platform for them to become the club they are today. McGrath and Strachan were top top players, but for varying reasons he didn't see them as part of the new structure. Their team wasn't that good at all, English football was terrible at the time, they had players like Ralph Milne, Giuliano Maiorana, Russell Beardsmore, players that were almost finished like Arthur Albiston and Ashley Grimes. What he did was lay so many platforms all based on discipline, I don't think he could ever be classed as the greatest tactician even though it's a strong hand of his, but without doubt he is the greatest at laying foundations based on discipline, structure and (something that we have never had) long term plans not necessarily just in terms of silverware neither. Overall my feeling is due to how he has done it Wenger is the greatest he is an absolute inspiration, he has grown Arsenal organically, spending next to fuck all, playing breath taking football, it's very difficult to say one is better than the other in my view but one thing is certain, you are talking shit Fop.

 

 

So you agree with Fop (that he's not THE greatest) and say Fop is talking shit..... I guess that mean you're talking shit Stevie.... although that is perhaps a paradox too far.....

Wenger to me is the greatest but he is definitively not the greatest. Ferguson on paper is the greatest, and some of your arguments to suggest he's not are laughable. "Aberdeen were doing well", for fuck sake, they'd won two trophies in the previous 30 years, he goes in there and wins 9 trophies in 6 seasons. You should think these things through when you come out with these wank statements.

Edited March 10, 2009 by Stevie

[Guest Stevie]

A post like that from Stevie and that's all you could focus on

What would you have focused on?

[snakehips 0]

Who is THE greatest then?

 

Sorry, but there's only one proper answer for such a question.

 

Cassius Marcellus Clay.

 

Football-wise, it is probably Ferguson, but for Paisley to take the established Liverpool team which Shankly had started, and build it up and evolve it continuously was no mean feat.

[Ayatollah Hermione 14094]

A post like that from Stevie and that's all you could focus on

What would you have focused on?

 

I think he just meant that the rest of your points were absolutely valid about the team and the quality but Fop chose to ignore the facts and just pick up on any little inconsistency he could. Sign of a beaten man.

[Fop 1]

You're a complete froot loop.

I'll take that as the grudging agreement it clearly is.

 

Wenger to me is the greatest but he is definitively not the greatest. Ferguson on paper is the greatest, and some of your arguments to suggest he's not are laughable. "Aberdeen were doing well", for fuck sake, they'd won two trophies in the previous 30 years, he goes in there and wins 9 trophies in 6 seasons. You should think these things through when you come out with these wank statements.

 

And you talk about talking and wank statements?

 

I think he just meant that the rest of your points were absolutely valid about the team and the quality but Fop chose to ignore the facts and just pick up on any little inconsistency he could. Sign of a beaten man.

 

See I knew it was all about the argument for you. The truth always comes out in the end.

[Guest alex]

I'll take that as confirmation of my previous post

[Fop 1]

I'll take that as confirmation of my previous post