Craig 6682 Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 With the 20 year anniversary of the Hillsborough disaster round the corner, I've realised that my knowledge of the event has been solely based on what I saw on the TV, what I've read in the press and what I've concluded from my own presumptions. Until now, I've never read either the interim or final public reports into the disaster written by Lord Justice Taylor. Even now I've only read the interim report, which covers the actual disaster and findings into the cause, in detail. The final report deals more with what recommendations were made to ensure something like that never occurred again. It had always been my opinion that the root cause was primarily the failure on a massive scale to police the situation with a small degree of blame to be placed at the feet of the Liverpool fans themselves for the conduct of some of their numbers in the run up to kick off. Reading the report suggests that, whilst blame is placed there, there are other areas which need to take responsibility for the events. Police - they were massively unprepared for what was to occur and no 'major disaster plan' could be successfully implemented as they simply didn't exist. This wasn't only true for the South Yorkshire Police force, it was true the country over. If the disaster had happened at St James Park, the police wouldn't have had a clue what to do. In their own words "it had never happened before so there was no reason to forsee it" They didn't help themselves by appointing Duckenfield as Chief Superintendent less than a month before the event occurred. The bloke had no experience of dealing with policing a football match for over 10 years. Their biggest failing though had to be after the event. Duckenfield lied about ordering the gate to be opened and when interviewed by Taylor, several officers exaggerated the drunken element of the crowd perhaps to rationalise their loss of control. The unforgivable acts of the force however was their evident desire to mis-lead what had happened and place the blame for the gate opening elsewhere when it had quite clearly been a police order. They were also, I believe behind the famous articles in the Sun and Star which was intent on placing the blame at the hands of the Liverpool fans. The FA - The FA made the choice to use Hillsborough for the semi-final. At the time, it was considered one of the better grounds in the country but probably more key to their choice was the fact that it was centrally located. In reality, the ground was fairly run down and whilst it could deal with the capacity within the ground, the facilities were not up to standard and the access - particularly at the Leppings Lane end was totally inadequate. Their argument maybe that there was no cause for concern in the two previous years even though there was crowding issues, but they didn't award the semi-final to Hillsborough for six years before that due to an incident which occurred at the 1981 semi final - injuries due to crushing in the Leppings Lane terraces! Fans of Liverpool FC - The main areas of blame placed at the fans of LFC have generally been fans without tickets, drunkeness and late arrival at the turnstiles. Reading into Taylor's report, the official capacity of the Leppings Lane end was 10,100. There were computer systems in place on the turnstiles and cameras to indentify anyone who'd got in by slipping under the turnstiles. As well as that there was CCTV monitoring gate C that the police opened therefore making it able to reasonable estimate how many went through that gate. As a result of the investigations, the report found that there were no more that 10,124 people within the Leppings Lane end - some 14 people more than there should have been. The results of the crushing inside was hardly that of ticketless fans. As for drunkeness most statements attribute that persons with a high levels of inebriation were few and no more than is expected at a football match. As for late arrival at the turnstiles - well how many of us prior to Hillsborough arrived at turnstiles at 2.50 on a match day? It was common practice and the problems caused by late arrival are surely more attributable to the approach to the ground not being able to cope with the numbers. Sheffield Wednesday - The safety certificate for Hillsborough was issued in 1979. Whilst the perimeter fences were in place at this time, the leppings lane terrace was one open terrace with no segregation and had the capacity of 10,100. Following the problems in 1981, on the advice of the police, the terrace was split into 3 pens. By 1985 the middle pen was split again and also reduced on one side to form a 'sterile' corridor between 2 pens. At no time was the safety certififcate ammended to reflect these changes and even more so, the total capacity of 10,100 remained despite the addition of 4 perpendicular fences and the 'sterile' area. What's more, the structural engineer recommended that the turnstiles were amended so that each pen was served by independant turnstiles rather than all of them serving the entire terrace. In doing so, control of numbers within in pen could be controlled. Without do so would mean that was no control. SWFC rejected his suggestions on the grounds of cost. On top of this, the directional signs once through the turnstiles was abysmal. Fans could either take a long walk around the left or right sides to go to the side pens (those which were sparsely populated) or take the short walk through the tunnel in front of them (which led them to the two pens in which the crowding, and deaths occurred). I remember the day vividly... I was in the kitchen at home listening on the radio to us playing away at Arsenal when they kept cutting away and going to Hillsborough for updates. I remember thinking at the time it was odd and wondered why they kept doing it and then they announced that there had been fatalities and the enormity of the situation came home. At the time I was a season ticket holder in the paddocks under the Milburn stand at SJP and for those of you who remember, it was segregated into 4 pens - 2 to the north of the players tunnel and 2 to the south. I remember my Mam saying soon afterwards that it was a damned good job they'd pulled those fences down at SJP soon afterwards because if they hadn't, she'd never let me go again - she was beating herself up that she'd let me go in there for nearly 3 years as it was. MOTD that evening was sombre affair - a clip of which is here: For those of you wanting to read through the official reports, the can be found here: Interim Report Final Report It's fair to say that my interest in what exactly happened and the causes of it increased when I learned that my lass (who as you know is a Liverpool fan) was supposed to be there standing in the Leppings Lane end. Mercifully, she was supposed to go with her Dad who couldn't get time off work so in the end they passed the tickets on to people who did come back. She did however lose one of her best mates in the disaster and anytime she reads or sees anything on the TV about Hillsborough, it all comes flooding back and she breaks down. To the end, the people who died were not just fans of Liverpool, they were football fans who went to a match and some never came home and it could have happened to any of us. For those who did get home, they've experienced a living nightmare and horror that I'm grateful I never did. RIP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommo 0 Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 good post that is mate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ketsbaia 0 Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 A week or two ago my Grandma had the old videos out of me and my brother when we were bairns. On one part I was dicking around the in garden with a trowl (Green fingered kid) and on the radio in the background the Hillsborough disaster was kicking off. It was really bizarre listening to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 44864 Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 The book by Phil Scraton is a good read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snakehips 0 Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 First time I've seen that. Quite moving tbh. I remember I was away at the time and listening to the events on the radio. Sad, sad stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig 6682 Posted February 20, 2009 Author Share Posted February 20, 2009 The book by Phil Scraton is a good read. I'd heard that but I'd also heard it was pretty biased and written for an audience. Would you reckon that's a fair assesment Gemmill? The documentary that Jimmy McGoven did was pretty good too IIRC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaMoUsE 0 Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 good post. im only 21 and was not really too clued up on hillsborough. Very sad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 44864 Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 The book by Phil Scraton is a good read. I'd heard that but I'd also heard it was pretty biased and written for an audience. Would you reckon that's a fair assesment Gemmill? The documentary that Jimmy McGoven did was pretty good too IIRC. I guess it's intended to redress the balance so could he slightly biased. To be honest it's been years since I read it so I can't really remember. Definitely worth a look though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig 6682 Posted February 20, 2009 Author Share Posted February 20, 2009 The 'blame' for the deaths is still to this day open to much discussion: * If there were no fences, people would have been able to escape onto the pitch and avoid being crushed * If there were no perpendicular fences creating pens, people would have been able to naturally distribute over the whole terrace and therefore crushing would not have been concentrated to the centre of the paddock. * If the police had prevented people entering the tunnel after 2.50pm (as they had done so in 1988), the fans who got in the ground after this time would have been forced to move to the side pens * If the police hadn't opened gate C, no deaths would have occurred. * If the police had agreed to a delayed kick-off, it would have released the urgency for fans to get inside the ground. The first 3 points are totally valid and any one of them would have singularly prevented any death that day. In fact if one of them had occurred, we'd probably still be standing on terraces today. The final 2 points are IMO questionable. The pens were already over-crowded and it's impossible to say if the opening of that gate was the cause of the fatalities or simply assisted them. Also, there was a danger that death could have occurred outside the ground so pressure had to relieved in some way. It's my opinion that at that point in time, they HAD to open gate C. the problem is that they made that decision in isolation when it needed to be made in conjunction with other decisions. Closing the tunnel to the centre pens and delaying the kick off would have made the opening of gate C not only safe, but also the correct decision to make. That is the failure to police IMO - not the decision to open it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paddy 17 Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 i was in hospital and i rememeber that day like it was yesterday, there were only 2 kids on the ward and we sat at the table watching it unfold, it was horrific R.I.P ps cracking post Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 4379 Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 My brother was there. I sort of saved his life - he'd never been to Hillsborough before so I told him to head for the corner bit as the view was better from there which he did. It took him till about 9pm to find a phone by which time my Mam (and my Dad and me) were sick with worry. The fans weren't blameless but imo that was just the nature of football fans in general - not particularly scousers but anyone who had been to Sheffield in the 80s (or indeed more recently) knows where the blame lies - in the utter bunch of cunts known as the South Yorkshire police force. A small mention also for Graham Kelly who while people were still dying gave an interview whose whole purpose was to deflect blame form the FA - a despicable piece of shit and on my list of people who I think hell existing would almost be worthwhile for. Another mention for Jimmy Hill - the pitch fence zealot - I'm sure he thought incidents like this were a price worth paying to keep a few idiots off the pitch. Final world - anyone who was at WHL in 1987 when we played them in the cup knows how close it was to be us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 I'll read that stuff properly later but there's a very good, very informative chapter on it by Nick Varley in 'Parklife' for anyone who's interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richg 0 Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 Thanks for that Craig It's still totally incomprehensible stuff. At least the dickheads involved football at the moment aren't accountable for manslaughter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 4379 Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 Final world - anyone who was at WHL in 1987 when we played them in the cup knows how close it was to be us. 22 Years ago today - from .com: Two years before the Hillsborough disaster though, United fans were almost the victim of callous policing by the Met in this game. The Park Lane end containing the travelling support was allowed to become dangerously overcrowded while the adjacent paddocks remained closed and unused. The first few fans to climb over the fences were arrested but gradually dozens joined in and fought with stewards to open gates on to the pitch. And in an eerie foretaste of the Hillsborough tragedy, seated fans above pulled some of those below to safety and disaster was averted. The police's reaction was to stretch a line of officers in front of the away section which blotted out any view of the match. And after the final whistle a vain attempt at holding the United fans back resulted in the gates being forced and running battles taking place along the Seven Sisters Road. Press reports subsequently estimated the travelling support at 14,000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig 6682 Posted February 21, 2009 Author Share Posted February 21, 2009 Another mention for Jimmy Hill - the pitch fence zealot - I'm sure he thought incidents like this were a price worth paying to keep a few idiots off the pitch. to be fair to Jimmy Hill, if you watch the remaining parts of the MOTD clips on youtube, at the very end he makes reference to when he was Coventry City chairman, they created the first all seater stadium and removed the fences back in 1982 and that the football fraternity ridiculed them. His last point being a question of how many fans who were in the leppings lane end wished it had been an all-seater, no fences arena. Graham Kelly is, I agree a cunt for what he said that day - although he wasn't helped by Duckenfield who, when he quizzed him what had happened, replied that the fans had forced the gate. Bert Millichip was also out of line and totally out of touch for claiming that the organisers could not be to blame seeing as it was an all-ticket match. This clip is quite a powerful documentary outlining the views and memories of some of the fans and players who were at Hillsborough that day: http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/media/hillsborou...150408_high.asx There's also a lot of background info to what happened on the day here: http://www.contrast.org/hillsborough/histo...istory-html.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manc-mag 1 Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 Excellent post, Craig. I remember being at a Man U match with a mate that day. The news of 'crowd disturbances' kept getting fed over the tannoy and the Old Trafford crowd were generally having a laugh about it, particularly when it came through that the fixture had ultimately been abandoned. I will always remember the announcer's words: "this is not funny!" It was only after the match, back at home watching the news reports that the tragedy became clear. That footage is really quite difficult to watch so long after the event with everything that is now known about events that day. The fans really were just walking towards their death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 4379 Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 to be fair to Jimmy Hill, if you watch the remaining parts of the MOTD clips on youtube, at the very end he makes reference to when he was Coventry City chairman, they created the first all seater stadium and removed the fences back in 1982 and that the football fraternity ridiculed them. His last point being a question of how many fans who were in the leppings lane end wished it had been an all-seater, no fences arena. We went to Coventry in 84 or 85 and there were fences in front of the seats - you couldn't see the pitch and standing meant arrest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig 6682 Posted February 21, 2009 Author Share Posted February 21, 2009 Who was it who wanted to electrify the fences? Was it that tory clown David Evans when he was chairman of Luton Town? There were so pretty fucking awful ideas back in the mid 80s. It was all a case of crowd control first and crowd safety second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 4379 Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 Who was it who wanted to electrify the fences? Was it that tory clown David Evans when he was chairman of Luton Town? There were so pretty fucking awful ideas back in the mid 80s. It was all a case of crowd control first and crowd safety second. No it was Ken Bates - Evans just banned away fans full stop - what a thread full of cunts. The thing about fences is that apart from Millwall at Luton one time I can't remember any outbreaks of what I would call serious trouble involving pitch invasions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 I don't know if people can remember the Jimmy McGovern 'docu-drama' but (and I hear it's very good) I couldn't watch more than about 20 minutes of it because it just made me so pissed and angry about what had been allowed to happen and how those responsible got away with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 14011 Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 I am 22 so I was 3 and I never watched the original broadcast. What a horror show and it really is genuinely heartbreaking to watch. I won't try to place any blame or criticise anything as I don't know a lot about it but it looks like a real nightmare. Fucking horrible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bob Almighty! 0 Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 Great post mate, and thank you for this. I always thought i knew most of the facts regarding what i had read about that day, turns out i didnt. Very interesting read Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig 6682 Posted February 21, 2009 Author Share Posted February 21, 2009 I don't know if people can remember the Jimmy McGovern 'docu-drama' but (and I hear it's very good) I couldn't watch more than about 20 minutes of it because it just made me so pissed and angry about what had been allowed to happen and how those responsible got away with it. I watched it when it was released back in 1996 (don't think it's ever been transmitted since). I echoed the sentiments however I think that McGoven (a scouser) was using it as a platform to give the Liverpool version of events and, whilst it highlighted the shortcomings of the police, I think the bias of blame towards the police and not necessarily towards the other authorities who failed in the run up to that day is evident. The program was released at the height of the Hillsborough Justice Campaign and before the trials of SYP and I believe it was used to strengthen both. Awesome bit of drama however. I saw an interview with Christopher Ecclestone (who played the lead) who said he only agreed to do the programme with the full backing of the families concerned. He also claims that what the police say in the docu-drama is totally true and are quotes lifted from Taylor's inquiry. I would imagine that the programme may well be repeated in the week of the 20th anniversary. If it is, I recommend all to watch it. The portrayal of how the Hicks family dealt with life after the disaster is superb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig 6682 Posted February 21, 2009 Author Share Posted February 21, 2009 I am 22 so I was 3 and I never watched the original broadcast. What a horror show and it really is genuinely heartbreaking to watch. I won't try to place any blame or criticise anything as I don't know a lot about it but it looks like a real nightmare. Fucking horrible. Have a look at the Interim Report (PDF link in original post) and scroll down to Appendix 5 (page 75 of the PDF document). It shows how jam packed the central pens were and how sparse the wing pens (nearest to the camera) were by comparison. I know that photo is only a monochrome photocopy but it still brings home the horror of the situation. EDIT: this is a smaller, sepia version of it What makes it worse is that police control box is over on the other side of this photo quite high up (right next to the 'F' of the FINLUX TV & VIDEO sign is in line with the perimeter fence. The had a direct view, probably the clearest view of anyone in the ground) of the two pens where people died and could clearly see they were full beyond capacity long before they tragically opened gate C yet they did nothing about it! That's the point I can't comprehend - what the fuck were they doing up there? And surely before you give an order to open a floodgate, you make sure that areas that are already full are closed for access? This following pic was taken more or less from police control box. Don't forget they had CCTV cameras with decent zoom on them. One report suggested that the optical zoom was strong enough to be able to see the whites of peoples eyes in the area in question: And to give some perspective of what it was like down the front there's this. This is by no means the worst photo I've seen - it's actually quite tame by comparison Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 14011 Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 Jesus Wept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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