Racism in football

[k4t0 0]

Maybe so, no ones saying the police acted with any respect.

 

Would the Media have batted an eyelid?

 

No they wouldnt, positive discrimination ?

[k4t0 0]

It all depends if it was racially motivated or not.

 

Had it been a white boy killed by blacks for purely being white, or even a white boy killed by racists for having black mates etc then yes, equally as disgusting.

 

If it was a fight over other reasons and somebody had stabbed him then yes, still disgusting.

 

The handling by the police was the disgusting thing in that case which made it even worse.

 

Nobody deserves to be killed in a fight, the people who do such things need putting away, its a crime there is no justification for.

 

But its a good question, if he was white would the media have treat the cas e the same?

49128[/snapback]

That's an easy question, no they wouldn't. I wouldn't get too caught up in media hyseria, or what we should probably call social hysteria, it's a good topic but not the one at hand.

 

If I brutally murder someone because they are black am I any worse than someone who brutally murders someone for sleeping with their wife? I'm not convinced.

49132[/snapback]

 

your still a murderer, but in one case your also racist.

[ChocChip 0]

It all depends if it was racially motivated or not.

 

Had it been a white boy killed by blacks for purely being white, or even a white boy killed by racists for having black mates etc then yes, equally as disgusting.

 

If it was a fight over other reasons and somebody had stabbed him then yes, still disgusting.

 

The handling by the police was the disgusting thing in that case which made it even worse.

 

Nobody deserves to be killed in a fight, the people who do such things need putting away, its a crime there is no justification for.

 

But its a good question, if he was white would the media have treat the cas e the same?

49128[/snapback]

That's an easy question, no they wouldn't. I wouldn't get too caught up in media hyseria, or what we should probably call social hysteria, it's a good topic but not the one at hand.

 

If I brutally murder someone because they are black am I any worse than someone who brutally murders someone for sleeping with their wife? I'm not convinced.

49132[/snapback]

 

your still a murderer, but in one case your also racist.

49136[/snapback]

 

Is not the crime of murder so horrific that any motive is equally condemnable?

[luckypierre 0]

nice analogy, complete nonsense, but nice all the same

 

the white dog isnt getting more than it deserves, neither is the black dog

 

unless you are saying that black people arent in certain positions because of the colour of their skin which as far as Im concerned is rubbish. It has to be on merit. Any discrimination of any kind is wrong, even positive, all it does is reinforce negative views in the minds of the non positvely discriminated. You dont have a lack of black police officers because of the police force being racist , you have less because less black people apply for that type job. Same as you have less working class white people in the police force. There are cultural reasons why people belonging to these groups are going to be less represented

 

 

49101[/snapback]

 

 

Now that's bullshit. The Police Force is a racist institution, as admitted at its highest level. Would you want to apply for a job where you're going to get abused daily? Not just by the people you're policing but by your co-workers?

 

It comes down to education.  Thats the only way you are going to change peoples views and the only way people can better themselves. Young black culture as a whole needs to have a good hard look at itself and what it values and what it celebrates

 

Oh aye racism is all down to black people having a persecution complex. Jesus.

 

They have been persecuted and have every right to have a bit of a complex. My cousin has been told by 3 separate girls (who he liked and was 'intimate with') that they couldn't actually go out with him because their dads would kill them.

You know what it's like to hear that? I mean, people get dumped for good reasons and turn to drink, but being dumped because of someone elses ignorance will give you a bit of a chip on your shoulder.

 

With every passing generation things get better. Working class people are probably the least racist (since most black people are working class) and I think football would be far more inviting than rugby.

49120[/snapback]

 

I never mentioned a persecution complex, tell me where i did. Neither did I say that racism was down to what I was pointing out. Thanks for reading soemthing into what I wrote for the sake of a one liner, nice one. Its merely about how minority groups are less represented in certain areas. There are cultural reasons for this that are not based on race.

 

The Met actually had a massive drive to recruit more officers from minority groups, what happened? No applicants. Why? You're right in that the image of the police force probabaly is a factor. The biggest though is that it just isnt done, peer pressure. Its the same with the white working class. Theres plenty of people who I know who would treat me differently if I was a police officer, theres some who wouldnt have anything to do with me.

 

Achievement and success at school arent celebrated or held in high enough regard. Its nothing different than the likes of Sydney Poitier, Spike Lee and Denzel Washington have spoken out about. Young black culture needs to look at what it holds in high regard. At the moment its lawlessness. Why the disparity between asians and blacks then in the figures? Are we more racist against blacks than asians or do the asian community have differing values?

 

Its a generalisation and obviously doesnt hold true for all young black people but no one can deny theres an issue there.

Edited October 25, 2005 by luckypierre

[Guest alex]

Maybe so, no ones saying the police acted with any respect.

 

Would the Media have batted an eyelid?

 

No they wouldnt, positive discrimination ?

49133[/snapback]

The whole point about the Stephen Lawrence case was that it highlighted the deep-rooted racism within the Met. It difficult to compare the media reaction to the murder of a white person as it's pretty different. The whole point to the furore surrounding the case was the assumptions the police made because the victim was black.

[adios 717]

Is not the crime of murder so horrific that any motive is equally condemnable?

49138[/snapback]

 

I read that as commendable at first glance! I think that's how I feel about it. Being a racist murderer may be no more significant than being a liberal or conservative murderer. I'm not equating racism to political preference, before anyone starts.

[k4t0 0]

Well, if you kill everyone who sleeps with your wife you might struggle to find many.

 

If you kill everyone you see because they are black then its not really a motive, they have not done anything to or against you.

 

However, if all black people had slept with your wife and you could prove it...

 

The crime itself is equally condemnable, the motive only exists in one example you gave.

[Guest alex]

Well, if you kill everyone who sleeps with your wife you might struggle to find many.

 

If you kill everyone you see because they are black then its not really a motive, they have not done anything to or against you. 

 

However, if all black people had slept with your wife and you could prove it...

 

The crime itself is equally condemnable, the motive only exists in one example you gave.

49147[/snapback]

I honestly have no idea what point you're trying to make there.

Edited October 25, 2005 by alex

[adios 717]

The whole point about the Stephen Lawrence case was that it highlighted the deep-rooted racism within the Met. It difficult to compare the media reaction to the murder of a white person as it's pretty different. The whole point to the furore surrounding the case was the assumptions the police made because the victim was black.

49142[/snapback]

 

There's also an interesting point in whether they are wrong to do so. They're on a budget, they have to take short-cuts, make assumptions. If some of those are racial. Like a black man, aged 20-30 shot dead on this street is 40% likely to be involved in gangland activity, is that wrong? The whole system's fucked, it's difficult to point fingers.

 

Anyway, I notice we've already managed to steer off the new topic.

[Shearergol 0]

Not the greatest of analogies to be honest. How about if one dog was a lab, and the other a collie. The lab gets most of the food to start with. Should you then take away from all labs in the world, and give to all collies?

49097[/snapback]

 

Eh? it's an analogy, why would it refer to all dogs. It's not like 1 black person has been abused, every black person in the UK has probably been victimised at some point.

 

In your example though you're not positively discriminating, you're being equal. Giving a job to a black rather than a white purely to level things up isn't being equal. Giving them both a job is.

49097[/snapback]

 

Oops, that's right. Ok amend it, the scrawny dog should be given more for a while to built its strength up.

49107[/snapback]

 

 

But you're saying (in the analogy) that every black has been discriminated by every white.

 

Doesn't work that way. Should I suffer because another white person has discriminated against someone in the past? Isn't that putting me in a group? Labelling me because of my colour?

[k4t0 0]

Getting back ontrack though, I would say that a black man with equal ambition to his white counterpart can get to where he wants to be in todays society.

 

Yes, racism does exist, it always will, in one form or another, I dislike ginger people, dont know why, I would never want to kill or hold back a ginge for purely being ginge though.

 

Does that make me racist ? Do I discriminate against gingers?

[k4t0 0]

Well, if you kill everyone who sleeps with your wife you might struggle to find many.

 

If you kill everyone you see because they are black then its not really a motive, they have not done anything to or against you. 

 

However, if all black people had slept with your wife and you could prove it...

 

The crime itself is equally condemnable, the motive only exists in one example you gave.

49147[/snapback]

I honestly have no idea what point you're trying to make there.

49150[/snapback]

Aye, shite reply tbh

[Guest alex]

The whole point about the Stephen Lawrence case was that it highlighted the deep-rooted racism within the Met. It difficult to compare the media reaction to the murder of a white person as it's pretty different. The whole point to the furore surrounding the case was the assumptions the police made because the victim was black.

49142[/snapback]

 

There's also an interesting point in whether they are wrong to do so. They're on a budget, they have to take short-cuts, make assumptions. If some of those are racial. Like a black man, aged 20-30 shot dead on this street is 40% likely to be involved in gangland activity, is that wrong? The whole system's fucked, it's difficult to point fingers.

 

Anyway, I notice we've already managed to steer off the new topic.

49151[/snapback]

To be honest, when it's a murder case I don't think there's much excuse for not investigating the case correctly although I can see where you're coming from.

[adios 717]

Well, if you kill everyone who sleeps with your wife you might struggle to find many.

 

If you kill everyone you see because they are black then its not really a motive, they have not done anything to or against you. 

 

However, if all black people had slept with your wife and you could prove it...

 

The crime itself is equally condemnable, the motive only exists in one example you gave.

49147[/snapback]

I honestly have no idea what point you're trying to make there.

49150[/snapback]

 

He's talking to choc or myself about the comparison made between a racist murder and a crime of passion.

 

What if genocide in darkest Africa at a young age had convinced you that all black people were savages? That would be messed up, but can anyone kill for any reason without serious psychological problems (unless it's state sponsored of course)?

 

I've known racists, but a racist murderer? There has to be a lot of hatred brewing fo that. Same goes for victims of adultery.

Edited October 25, 2005 by DotBum

[k4t0 0]

Thanks, that was more what I was after.

Edited October 25, 2005 by k4t0

[adios 717]

Getting back ontrack though, I would say that a black man with equal ambition to his white counterpart can get to where he wants to be in todays society.

 

Yes, racism does exist, it always will, in one form or another, I dislike ginger people, dont know why, I would never want to kill or hold back a ginge for purely being ginge though.

 

Does that make me racist ?  Do I discriminate against gingers?

49154[/snapback]

 

Gemmill's going to love that!

 

It's either something bred into you by society from a very early age or you see them as more obviously out of your gene pool so you don't like them. Probably a combination of the two. Alot of similarities with racism.

[k4t0 0]

Dont know what it is to be honest, there was this annoying ginger kid at school though, nobody liked him.

 

Maybe he has been the cause of my gingerism?

 

Who knows.

 

There are a lot of similarities though.

[Renton 21563]

Jesus wept. This has gone way off topic considering it's the football forum. But to steer it back on topic a bit re: positive descrimination, would it be acceptable to play a black footballer at SJP simply because he was black, when there was an equally good, or better, white player available? I suspect 99.9999% of people would think not. So if it's not the correct thing to do in the world of football, why is it in any other job?

[adios 717]

Jesus wept. This has gone way off topic considering it's the football forum. But to steer it back on topic a bit re: positive descrimination, would it be acceptable to play a black footballer at SJP simply because he was black, when there was an equally good, or better, white player available? I suspect 99.9999% of people would think not. So if it's not the correct thing to do in the world of football, why is it in any other job?

49168[/snapback]

 

0.0001 <-- I just want to know who that bloke is.

[Happy Face 29]

It's not neccessarily ignorant not to want a daughter to go out with a black guy.  I have friends who've had black partners and they've never had an easy time from either 'side'.  Father's always want the best for their daughters, often irrationally, but that's perfectly rational.

 

And I really have to question what you say about the working classes being the least racist

49126[/snapback]

 

 

??

 

Run that one past me again. It's rational to have an irrational hatred of someone to the detrement of your own childs happiness??

 

The working class white person in britain associates far more frequently with other races, they have more mixed race relationships, produce more mixed race offspring. Generally due to the fact that most other races are predominantly working class too. As much as MPs spout off their PC garbage, the majority of them would be horrified if their daughter married a black man.

 

PS. I wrote a much longer response then pressed escape so this will have to do.

[Guest alex]

Shola played well on Sunday like.

[Shearergol 0]

Shola played well on Sunday like.

49171[/snapback]

 

 

Would he have been in the team if he were white though?

[Renton 21563]

Jesus wept. This has gone way off topic considering it's the football forum. But to steer it back on topic a bit re: positive descrimination, would it be acceptable to play a black footballer at SJP simply because he was black, when there was an equally good, or better, white player available? I suspect 99.9999% of people would think not. So if it's not the correct thing to do in the world of football, why is it in any other job?

49168[/snapback]

 

0.0001 <-- I just want to know who that bloke is.

49169[/snapback]

 

bez by the sounds of it.

[adios 717]

You see I can't see how you've turned a father being worried about his daughter getting hassled about going out with a black fella into 'irrational hatred'. I'd call that pretty sensationalist. I was trying to point out that labelling things like that racist, stands in the way of decent debate.

 

I didn't say the other but very clearly - I meant:

 

Fathers are often irrational in their protection of their daughters but to see a problem and protect their daughter from it is rational.

 

On the working class issue, I'm not looking at statistics, I'm speaking from personal experience. I have a working class background (in Ireland) and it's the worst racism I've experienced. I have hung around with all classes in a number of countries (including England) and that hasn't changed my opinion.

 

I think fear is produced by ignorance, which in turn produces hatred. I don't feel the working classes are given the same opportunities for education. It's not really controversial though, I don't think.

 

Just seen your PS, if you do that again, I'm pretty sure Ctrl-Z will fix your problem.

Edited October 25, 2005 by DotBum

[Happy Face 29]

Jesus wept. This has gone way off topic considering it's the football forum. But to steer it back on topic a bit re: positive descrimination, would it be acceptable to play a black footballer at SJP simply because he was black, when there was an equally good, or better, white player available? I suspect 99.9999% of people would think not. So if it's not the correct thing to do in the world of football, why is it in any other job?

49168[/snapback]

 

Because most workplace interviews are based on a half hour chat and a CV. When you can't decide, then I think swaying towards a non-white or non-male applicant is valid for the sake of workplace equality (or if it's a job predominantly done by womer, err towards giving it to a male applicant).

 

Getting into a team is based on years of past knowledge of a player and what they're going to bring. You're never going to think two places are the same. Throughout the rest of the club positive discrimination should be encouraged.

 

A few years back every member of bar-staff in the Leazes was 'non-white' as much as I encourage positive discrimination, half of them couldn't even speak English and were incapable of doing the job well. There must have been complaints because the staff now seem a lot more able to understand what is being ordered.