Racism in football

[Kid Dynamite 7025]

its awesome the NHS theses days, we have computers and everfink. you can even use them on your breaks!

[peasepud 59]

Its just an example. I agree with the other word that i try to avoid thinking of never mind typing. Did you see what i meant by the other comments on the previous post? Do they make sense? Women? Black people have to try harder generally in society. Why are we the exception? Were not in my opinion. I dont doubt the black players played poorly. I have said that myself many times. I just feel they get less chance than white ones.

 

WE arent as tolerant in my view.

48780[/snapback]

 

I agree with the argument overall but to decide that because you've heard or read a comment that you've taken as being racist doesnt make all forum members or newcastle/ football fans in general guilty of it.

 

I do however feel that in the main, this country is not racist or sexist, whether in the workplace, the football ground or life in general. There are many reasons why there are less female or black managers than white male all of which can be turned around by people and made to be racist/ sexist reasons.

 

Less female managers?

a) lots of businesses such as heavy engineering etc have less female entrants, not because the business dont want females but because they themselves would rather not do that work therefore theres less of them to be promoted.

b ) many women during their career leave to have children, its a fact of life that no matter how equal we want to be we cannot reverse genetics therefore breaks in careers make it harder to keep upto date or gain as much experience as a male counterpart.

 

Less black managers?

a) rightly or wrongly a lot of the black community come from poorer areas, and I know that this could be seen as a form of racism however its a fact of life, if someones grandfather came to this country and had to learn the language and get around the prejudices of the time then they ended up in the poorer paid jobs, this then gives their descendants less opportunity to gain better education than someone in a middle class background, again not fair but also in itself not racist. We as a generation cannot be made to pay for the previous generations problems.

b ) There are less black people in this country than white so you could never get an even split, if you did then there would obviously be some form of racism involved (because believe it or not, racism against white people does happen).

 

What can be seen though is that those black members of the country who have gone on and gained a higher level of education have in their careers gone on to be as successful as a white counterpart. Go to the city of London and you'll see many black men and women who are at the top of their careers, running companies and managing multi billion pound share dealings, Im sure they would be horrified if they thought they were there to meet targets or make up the numbers. No they're there because they were the best person for the job. Just as dropping Amdy Faye wouldnt be racist it would be because we had some other player available, personally Id happily ask for volunteers from the crowd before playing him but thats another story.

[Kid Dynamite 7025]

Happy face. 'We' was meant to mean you and me.

i dont like ostentatious use of jewelry either but its a different matter.

Some psychologists reckon jewellry is just a way of avoiding/deflecting from yourself anyway.

I've never been shy.

48783[/snapback]

 

But I'm black! Did you assume that us po' old boys couldn't afford computers?

 

With regard to your 'more difficult for black people in the workplace' I'm all for positive dicrimination. A lot of people on here I seem to remeber think it's bollocks, and in the world of football I'd agree. If you have 2 people who seem to be identical in ability, then I think the black person should get the job. This is small retribution for the long history of abuse they and their ancestors have received. The thing is Football managers don't interview and far more of a footballers past is known to call any 2 identical.

48811[/snapback]

 

 

bollocks.

[Renton 21564]

Anyway peasepud. Just as an intelligent conversation was starting the bairns came onto the forum. Something for the intelligent amongst you to think about.

48792[/snapback]

 

 

Why don't you name and shame these "unintelligent bairns" then?

48795[/snapback]

There is no shame in not being erudite Renton. Nor is there any shame in being young and daft. Ignorance though? That is the issue.

48802[/snapback]

 

 

It appears everybody on here is ignorant on here except you though. Funny that.

48807[/snapback]

Youre getting there Renton. Ignorance doesnt mean 'thick'. Just not aware of. Did you know it was KROF day yesterday?

You didnt did you?

48809[/snapback]

 

I know now. You've said it often enough. Personally I don't see what good a KROF will do, especially if the purpose of it is to highlight a problem that doesn't exist.

 

This might surprise you, but I haven't actually heard a racist chant at SJP for 5 years. If I ever did, I would be the first one to tell a steward and get the wanker banned for life.

[bez 0]

Anyway peasepud. Just as an intelligent conversation was starting the bairns came onto the forum. Something for the intelligent amongst you to think about.

48792[/snapback]

 

 

Why don't you name and shame these "unintelligent bairns" then?

48795[/snapback]

There is no shame in not being erudite Renton. Nor is there any shame in being young and daft. Ignorance though? That is the issue.

48802[/snapback]

 

 

It appears everybody on here is ignorant on here except you though. Funny that.

48807[/snapback]

Youre getting there Renton. Ignorance doesnt mean 'thick'. Just not aware of. Did you know it was KROF day yesterday?

You didnt did you?

48809[/snapback]

 

I know now. You've said it often enough. Personally I don't see what good a KROF will do, especially if the purpose of it is to highlight a problem that doesn't exist.

 

This might surprise you, but I haven't actually heard a racist chant at SJP for 5 years. If I ever did, I would be the first one to tell a steward and get the wanker banned for life.

48816[/snapback]

I agree on banning. Gemmill mentioned he had 3 in 2 years. I have heard a lot more but I do listen for it cos I am an awkward twat (I assume you wont argue with that)

I have heard people say it next to a steward and get away with it.

It needs doing. Sadly it exists all the way through the game and society.

Have a nice day.

[peasepud 59]

Tell me bez, why do you feel its necessary to change your user name every ten minutes? I'm curious.

48779[/snapback]

Five minutes? Well, yesterday was Kick Racism out of football day Renton. So for the first time ever I registered as not_a_racist

As the day was done and the event gone. I renamed as Bez. A man I saw many times with the Happy Mondays.

Been here for about 36 hours now.

36 hours = 36 *60 = 2160 minutes

 

Not every 10 minutes as you claim. Thanks

Yours sincerely, The smug, arrogant bastard!

48789[/snapback]

 

 

I would have preferred it if you'd stuck with your original name though ie the one you registered with in early August and have made many posts on, I actually think that if you'd posted from that account then people may have taken you more seriously from the beginning as seeing a new member appear and start these types of discussions can often be seen as a wind up.

[bez 0]

Its just an example. I agree with the other word that i try to avoid thinking of never mind typing. Did you see what i meant by the other comments on the previous post? Do they make sense? Women? Black people have to try harder generally in society. Why are we the exception? Were not in my opinion. I dont doubt the black players played poorly. I have said that myself many times. I just feel they get less chance than white ones.

 

WE arent as tolerant in my view.

48780[/snapback]

 

I agree with the argument overall but to decide that because you've heard or read a comment that you've taken as being racist doesnt make all forum members or newcastle/ football fans in general guilty of it.

 

I do however feel that in the main, this country is not racist or sexist, whether in the workplace, the football ground or life in general. There are many reasons why there are less female or black managers than white male all of which can be turned around by people and made to be racist/ sexist reasons.

 

Less female managers?

a) lots of businesses such as heavy engineering etc have less female entrants, not because the business dont want females but because they themselves would rather not do that work therefore theres less of them to be promoted.

b ) many women during their career leave to have children, its a fact of life that no matter how equal we want to be we cannot reverse genetics therefore breaks in careers make it harder to keep upto date or gain as much experience as a male counterpart.

 

Less black managers?

a) rightly or wrongly a lot of the black community come from poorer areas, and I know that this could be seen as a form of racism however its a fact of life, if someones grandfather came to this country and had to learn the language and get around the prejudices of the time then they ended up in the poorer paid jobs, this then gives their descendants less opportunity to gain better education than someone in a middle class background, again not fair but also in itself not racist. We as a generation cannot be made to pay for the previous generations problems.

b ) There are less black people in this country than white so you could never get an even split, if you did then there would obviously be some form of racism involved (because believe it or not, racism against white people does happen).

 

What can be seen though is that those black members of the country who have gone on and gained a higher level of education have in their careers gone on to be as successful as a white counterpart. Go to the city of London and you'll see many black men and women who are at the top of their careers, running companies and managing multi billion pound share dealings, Im sure they would be horrified if they thought they were there to meet targets or make up the numbers. No they're there because they were the best person for the job. Just as dropping Amdy Faye wouldnt be racist it would be because we had some other player available, personally Id happily ask for volunteers from the crowd before playing him but thats another story.

48814[/snapback]

Fair points peasepud. The 'accusation' isnt aimed at anyone. Just thought provoking. However, government and independent statistics show sexism and racism is still rife. There are pro-rata statistics rather than total numbers in work. Examples? Will a black man ever be PM in your lifetime? Will a woman? (if she is like the last one then I hope not) In pay and promotion, blacks and women, pro-rata have more to prove and get less opportunity.

Just a national issue and hence we have days like KROF.

 

That is the point. aimed at nobosy but NUFC supporters to generate debate and understanding.

[Happy Face 29]

bollocks.

48815[/snapback]

 

Your verbal dexterity has convinced me that my opinion was ill thought out and foolish. I apologise to everyone for being so moronic.

 

Do you have a newsletter I can subscribe to in order to learn more of your teachings?

[Kid Dynamite 7025]

But I'm black!  Did you assume that us po' old boys couldn't afford computers?

 

With regard to your 'more difficult for black people in the workplace' I'm all for positive dicrimination.  A lot of people on here I seem to remeber think it's bollocks, and in the world of football I'd agree.  If you have  2 people who seem to be identical in ability, then I think the black person should get the job.  This is small retribution for the long history of abuse they and their ancestors have received.  The thing is  Football managers don't interview and far more of a footballers past is known to call any 2 identical.

 

why should what happened 300 years ago ivolving people im in no way related to affect me getting a job?

 

its like me saying ''aye but i wouldnt give the job to the black lad cos i was racially abused by a black man a couple of years ago.''

[Kid Dynamite 7025]

bollocks.

48815[/snapback]

 

Your verbal dexterity has convinced me that my opinion was ill thought out and foolish. I apologise to everyone for being so moronic.

 

Do you have a newsletter I can subscribe to in order to learn more of your teachings?

48821[/snapback]

 

bez?

[Shearergol 0]

But I'm black!   Did you assume that us po' old boys couldn't afford computers?

 

With regard to your 'more difficult for black people in the workplace' I'm all for positive dicrimination.  A lot of people on here I seem to remeber think it's bollocks, and in the world of football I'd agree.  If you have  2 people who seem to be identical in ability, then I think the black person should get the job.  This is small retribution for the long history of abuse they and their ancestors have received.  The thing is  Football managers don't interview and far more of a footballers past is known to call any 2 identical.

 

why should what happened 300 years ago ivolving people im in no way related to affect me getting a job?

 

its like me saying ''aye but i wouldnt give the job to the black lad cos i was racially abused by a black man a couple of years ago.''

48822[/snapback]

 

 

I'm confused. Wasn't he just being a bit "tongue in cheek"?

[Kid Dynamite 7025]

hes saying hes all for positive discrimination. im saying theres no such thing. discrimination is discrimination if you award someone a job on anything other than pure merit.

[Renton 21564]

In my experience the biggest inequalities in this country are based on class, not necessarily sex or race, although this undoubtedly exists. But strangely I think football is one area where there is little racism in terms of employment at least - black footballers are hardly a rarity, are they? In fact the number of black players is disproportionate to their population, I am pretty sure.

[Kid Dynamite 7025]

if hes getting the job cos hes black then surely that means im not getting the job cos im white? racism?

[bez 0]

Peasepud. Just looking at another quote.

 

From what we were saying about black people in general getting opportunities. How many black football managers in the football league and premiership (i mean ever.)

We are actually one of the few clubs to have employed a black manager.

Is there a reason for the paucity of black managers?

Alexander? Curle? Gullit? not many. Its not really representative is it?

[Kid Dynamite 7025]

is that a back handed remark that gullit was hated cos he was black? honest question?

[bez 0]

In my experience the biggest inequalities in this country are based on class, not necessarily sex or race, although this undoubtedly exists. But strangely I think football is one area where there is little racism in terms of employment at least - black footballers are hardly a rarity, are they? In fact the number of black players is disproportionate to their population, I am pretty sure.

48828[/snapback]

Black managers? I agree on class structure though. That is another issue.

[Renton 21564]

Peasepud. Just looking at another quote.

 

From what we were saying about black people in general getting opportunities. How many black football managers in the football league and premiership (i mean ever.)

We are actually one of the few clubs to have employed a black manager.

Is there a reason for the paucity of black managers?

Alexander? Curle? Gullit? not many. Its not really representative is it?

48830[/snapback]

 

 

But there are disproportionately more black players. No-one with any sense would argue this meant white people were being desciminated against though.

 

You can add Tigana too.

[ChocChip 0]

Tell me bez, why do you feel its necessary to change your user name every ten minutes? I'm curious.

48779[/snapback]

Five minutes? Well, yesterday was Kick Racism out of football day Renton. So for the first time ever I registered as not_a_racist

As the day was done and the event gone. I renamed as Bez. A man I saw many times with the Happy Mondays.

Been here for about 36 hours now.

36 hours = 36 *60 = 2160 minutes

 

Not every 10 minutes as you claim. Thanks

Yours sincerely, The smug, arrogant bastard!

48789[/snapback]

 

 

I would have preferred it if you'd stuck with your original name though ie the one you registered with in early August and have made many posts on, I actually think that if you'd posted from that account then people may have taken you more seriously from the beginning as seeing a new member appear and start these types of discussions can often be seen as a wind up.

48819[/snapback]

 

Mr. Pud,

I would just like to let you know personally that i , Mr. Chip, first name Choc, have only made one post on this thread prior to this one. I suspect that you think i am masquerading in various guises, if so, you're wrong. I have been following this thread (though it is boring tbh) but haven't posted much myself as i've said all i wanted to say ages ago and can't see much point doing it all again. In case any confusion occurs again, and i am mistaken for another, please remember, i'm the one with a sense of humour.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

Chip, C.

[peasepud 59]

Fair points peasepud. The 'accusation' isnt aimed at anyone. Just thought provoking. However, government and independent statistics show sexism and racism is still rife. There are pro-rata statistics rather than total numbers in work. Examples? Will a black man ever be PM in your lifetime? Will a woman? (if she is like the last one then I hope not) In pay and promotion, blacks and women, pro-rata have more to prove and get less opportunity.

Just a national issue and hence we have days like KROF.

 

That is the point. aimed at nobosy but NUFC supporters to generate debate and understanding.

48820[/snapback]

 

But again, statistics are only as good as the people you gain them from, its a fact of life that if you interview 100 black people and say "are you paid enough?" they will say no, however interview 100 white people and you'll get the same answer.

 

How can you get a statistic of racism and sexism being rife? the only possible way to get a valid answer on this is to ask the managers and HR teams of the country "would you give the job/ promotion/ pay rise to a person based on the colour of their skin or their sex?" If many answer yes then its valid however they're not going to be honest they would lie and say no. So then the way these stats are produced is to go to the black or female communities and say "did you get the last promotion/job/ pay rise you went for?" the fact that some didnt doesnt mean anything.

 

I went for 13 promotions to a grade below the one I was currently working in on a temporary basis but didnt get them, there were women and black men/women who did, does that mean I was discriminated against? no, it means I fooked up the form/ didnt spend enough time doing it/ got pissed off with the process or scarily, in some cases there were people better qualified than myself who did get it.

 

Im sorry but all statistics are bollocks and produced by government departments who want to keep their job, if the department for racial equality did a survey and announced "there is now officially no racism in this country" then there would be no job for those people (and Im not saying thats what they do or that their role isnt important, before anyone jumps on that statement).

[bez 0]

is that a back handed remark that gullit was hated cos he was black? honest question?

48831[/snapback]

Nope. It simply says that there have been numerous articles wondering why there have been so few black managers. Gullit got a fair crack up here I thought. Flys in the face of what I say but he had a charisma when he came that evaporated when he arsed up. That has nowt to do with race.

 

My question remains the same. GENERALLY are black players given a fair and EQUAL crack of the whip from fans?

 

I am not convinced.

 

The black manager issue is just another way of saying that black people in football have more to prove. They find it more difficult.

[Happy Face 29]

But I'm black!   Did you assume that us po' old boys couldn't afford computers?

 

With regard to your 'more difficult for black people in the workplace' I'm all for positive dicrimination.  A lot of people on here I seem to remeber think it's bollocks, and in the world of football I'd agree.  If you have  2 people who seem to be identical in ability, then I think the black person should get the job.  This is small retribution for the long history of abuse they and their ancestors have received.  The thing is  Football managers don't interview and far more of a footballers past is known to call any 2 identical.

 

why should what happened 300 years ago ivolving people im in no way related to affect me getting a job?

 

its like me saying ''aye but i wouldnt give the job to the black lad cos i was racially abused by a black man a couple of years ago.''

48822[/snapback]

 

Ignoring the fact that black people are still the victims of racism far moreso than white people....

 

The fact that black people are generally the poorest in developed nations stems from historical racism. It's not enough to say "we're all equal" when we're obviously not (How many black people did you see at the match on Sunday? In the pub before or after? where you work(other than cleaners)). What is required is a system of integration that accelerates the equilibrium of all races in society. That system is positive discrimination. Don't think of it as paying for what your ancestors did, but investing in future generations who can live in a world without racism. Fingers crossed.

[peasepud 59]

 

Mr. Pud,

I would just like to let you know personally that i , Mr. Chip, first name Choc, have only made one post on this thread prior to this one. I suspect that you think i am masquerading in various guises, if so, you're wrong. I have been following this thread (though it is boring tbh) but haven't posted much myself as i've said all i wanted to say ages ago and can't see much point doing it all again. In case any confusion occurs again, and i am mistaken for another, please remember, i'm the one with a sense of humour.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

Chip, C.

48834[/snapback]

 

Mr C,

 

This appears to be the second time you have thought I was referring to your good self, I however am not, the wonders of IP checks available to Mods and Admin mean that we can see who has registered/ posted from a particular IP address and yours didnt come up in this case.

 

Out of interest, what was it I said that made you think it was you?

 

Yours confusedly,

 

Pud.

 

*runs to do IP check on ChocChip

[bez 0]

But I'm black!   Did you assume that us po' old boys couldn't afford computers?

 

With regard to your 'more difficult for black people in the workplace' I'm all for positive dicrimination.  A lot of people on here I seem to remeber think it's bollocks, and in the world of football I'd agree.  If you have  2 people who seem to be identical in ability, then I think the black person should get the job.  This is small retribution for the long history of abuse they and their ancestors have received.  The thing is  Football managers don't interview and far more of a footballers past is known to call any 2 identical.

 

why should what happened 300 years ago ivolving people im in no way related to affect me getting a job?

 

its like me saying ''aye but i wouldnt give the job to the black lad cos i was racially abused by a black man a couple of years ago.''

48822[/snapback]

 

Ignoring the fact that black people are still the victims of racism far moreso than white people....

 

The fact that black people are generally the poorest in developed nations stems from historical racism. It's not enough to say "we're all equal" when we're obviously not (How many black people did you see at the match on Sunday? In the pub before or after? where you work(other than cleaners)). What is required is a system of integration that accelerates the equilibrium of all races in society. That system is positive discrimination. Don't think of it as paying for what your ancestors did, but investing in future generations who can live in a world without racism. Fingers crossed.

48838[/snapback]

Good post. There isnt any equilibrium of any sort at present. As for our history? Well some say we cant be held accountable for the deeds of our forefathers. Well, as long as we live under the same flag and nation state, we are obliged to. In my view.

[Happy Face 29]

if hes getting the job cos hes black then surely that means im not getting the job cos im white? racism?

48829[/snapback]

 

 

Exactly. And a terrible state of affairs that would be. But it wouldn't happen to you that often and would only be until true equality is reached. See how angry you get about one bit of discrimination. Can you imagine being black and getting that every day of the week?