Racism in football

[adios 717]

black people (same job examples are noted) get paid LESS than white counterparts

Is that because they aren't really as capable as their peers but got the job due to positive discrimination?

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No, neither. There are cases (many of them) where BLACK people /women/black women etc (those we know from the statistics published by the DTI,EOC are discrimated against)

DO THE SAME JOB (exactly the same job) and get paid less for it.

 

Now, this happens regularly enough to put a 20% disparity between women and men doing EXACTLY THE SAME JOB across the UK.

 

Nowt to do with ability. Lots to do with prejudice.

 

The point is, if British society is capable of this then what makes NUFC any different in its ability to tolerate Black players and treat them equally?

 

Now, MOST people are rational. Most people also have some prejudice of some sort somewhere, however much we have rightly pushed it away.

 

Given Andy Coles return to SJP and the bile (much of it involving the word BLACK) and the ridiculous comments made about players recently: Compare these comments from forums: JJ (break legs/die/bling bastard etc) with AOB (shit). The vitriol is very different. The same with Baba/Carr. Dyer when not playing (waste of spunk) and Bowyer when not "playing".

 

Whether we care to see it or not there is an undercurrent. Not as visible as it used to be but a bigger issue than some who care to acknowledge.

 

For every exception to the rule there is another example we can mention.

 

Nobody has said that SJP has turned into Burnley. Not have we said that every poster is Nick Griffin. However, racism is on the rise nationally in many ways. Politically, the NF/BNP are gaining some ground. Tensions go with it.

 

To ignore it is fine. We have had that bullshit line from several people. So why do we have an EOC? KROF?

 

Anyway, at least some people have decided to think (for a change)

Next time you or the people sat next to you at the match or the pub slag Stephen Carr, ask yourself whether it was preceded with a moniker related to his ancestry and culture. did they do the other lads the same courtesy?

 

One strike and out is the racism rule in football grounds.

 

Until we have eradicated the problem entirely we need to keep on eye on it and perhaps some people will notice we arent as free from it as many suggest.

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That's a pretty sizable response to a joke comment! I agree with you that society has to be pro-actively anti-racist for quite a long time to come but there is a whole other side to this argument. If you just say racism is wrong and let's put together some blanket policies to stop it the problems you end up with are just as bad. Labelling things as racist which aren't racist, making people afraid to discuss the issues, hysteria and quite possibly positive discrimination.

 

Here's food for thought, why not just positively discriminate for poor, underprivileged people? Starting with better education and public health.

Edited October 25, 2005 by DotBum

[bez 0]

Jenas was a lazy bling tosser who couldn't be arsed to make anything of his talent at Newcastle, and went through the motions for 2 1/2 years.

 

I hope he dies soon, every good shift he puts in for Spurs is a slap in the face for Newcastle supporters.

 

 

 

he can drop dead as far as I'm concerned.

 

 

vitriolic?

Wonder what he feels about AOB

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Probably thought he was a tryer who was shite.

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Perhaps. Wonder if he got the vitriol. If I quoted you it was in error. Just got in and buying something on ebay is top of the agenda at present.

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In fairness to AOB, I think he was a 100-er, even if he wasn't good enough. Not sure JJ always gave his all.

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I dont buy that. JJ played in every position for NUFC. We ruined him and the only moan he had was pointing out that Newcastle is big village. It is. Unwise to say it but true enough.

I do think some players get the vitriol easier than others.

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Ok then Bez, how come despite some very ordinary performances JJ got practically no stick at the match whereas AOB got loads of stick? Explain that.

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JJ got lots and lots of abuse in the Leazes. He is one of the few black players I have heard the words 'black bastard' shouted at recently.

Both got it Alex. This is simply an example. Look at the vitriol in the comment above. Find a similar AOB one? Its out of proportion to the kids displays and his temperament. Why?

[bez 0]

black people (same job examples are noted) get paid LESS than white counterparts

Is that because they aren't really as capable as their peers but got the job due to positive discrimination?

49116[/snapback]

No, neither. There are cases (many of them) where BLACK people /women/black women etc (those we know from the statistics published by the DTI,EOC are discrimated against)

DO THE SAME JOB (exactly the same job) and get paid less for it.

 

Now, this happens regularly enough to put a 20% disparity between women and men doing EXACTLY THE SAME JOB across the UK.

 

Nowt to do with ability. Lots to do with prejudice.

 

The point is, if British society is capable of this then what makes NUFC any different in its ability to tolerate Black players and treat them equally?

 

Now, MOST people are rational. Most people also have some prejudice of some sort somewhere, however much we have rightly pushed it away.

 

Given Andy Coles return to SJP and the bile (much of it involving the word BLACK) and the ridiculous comments made about players recently: Compare these comments from forums: JJ (break legs/die/bling bastard etc) with AOB (shit). The vitriol is very different. The same with Baba/Carr. Dyer when not playing (waste of spunk) and Bowyer when not "playing".

 

Whether we care to see it or not there is an undercurrent. Not as visible as it used to be but a bigger issue than some who care to acknowledge.

 

For every exception to the rule there is another example we can mention.

 

Nobody has said that SJP has turned into Burnley. Not have we said that every poster is Nick Griffin. However, racism is on the rise nationally in many ways. Politically, the NF/BNP are gaining some ground. Tensions go with it.

 

To ignore it is fine. We have had that bullshit line from several people. So why do we have an EOC? KROF?

 

Anyway, at least some people have decided to think (for a change)

Next time you or the people sat next to you at the match or the pub slag Stephen Carr, ask yourself whether it was preceded with a moniker related to his ancestry and culture. did they do the other lads the same courtesy?

 

One strike and out is the racism rule in football grounds.

 

Until we have eradicated the problem entirely we need to keep on eye on it and perhaps some people will notice we arent as free from it as many suggest.

49258[/snapback]

 

That's a pretty sizable response to a joke comment! I agree with you that society has to be pro-actively anti-racist for quite a long time to come but there is a whole other side to this argument. If you just say racism is wrong and let's put together some blanket policies to stop it the problems you end up with are just as bad. Labelling things as racist which aren't racist, making people afraid to discuss the issues, hysteria and quite possibly positive discrimination.

 

Here's food for thought, why not just positively discriminate for poor, underprivileged people? Starting with better education and public health.

49283[/snapback]

blanket policies already exist for racism. Most decent people understand its a 'one strike and out' situation.

I totally agree with your comment regarding underprivileged and poor.

It all needs doing. birmingham at present sums it up. Its back to Toxteth and the lessons still havent been learned. What next?

Well wait for a few years and see if Burnley erupts again. Its part of the same equation of course.

Povery breeds contempt for those who have things (some people without get bitter)

Culture clash? People saying 'they' have 'our' jobs....etc

Plenty to do

 

Nb: The word 'coloured' was acceptable 20 years ago. Some stll happily called black people 'niggers'

Some would suggest that the waywe use labels (and indeed the fact that we have used them) determines what the implied message is.

Edited October 25, 2005 by bez

[Guest alex]

The 'vitriolic' comment you mention wasn't mine so, while I don't agree with it, I feel no need to explain it away. I can't comment on where you sit but I honestly can't remember the crowd getting on Jenas's back in anything like the way they did with Andy O'Brien. O'Brien got loads more stick than JJ IMO.

[adios 717]

JJ got lots and lots of abuse in the Leazes.  He is one of the few black players I have heard the words 'black bastard' shouted at recently.

Both got it Alex. This is simply an example. Look at the vitriol in the comment above. Find a similar AOB one? Its out of proportion to the kids displays and his temperament. Why?

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Some of the stuff I've said about O'Brien would make your ears bleed, there were times I hated him when he played for us and I got the impression that was the general feeling. JJ was always a big arguing point, an ever decreasing crowd waiting for his potential to start paying off and the people that were sick of waiting.

 

I'm not sure of JJ's lifestyle but if it was anything like Dyer's then bling would not be an unfair comment, O'Brien's less bling than my granny.

 

Also why are you so obsessed with racism only being a black thing? O'Brien is Irish you know.

Edited October 25, 2005 by DotBum

[Guest alex]

JJ got lots and lots of abuse in the Leazes.  He is one of the few black players I have heard the words 'black bastard' shouted at recently.

Both got it Alex. This is simply an example. Look at the vitriol in the comment above. Find a similar AOB one? Its out of proportion to the kids displays and his temperament. Why?

49285[/snapback]

 

Some of the stuff I've said about O'Brien would make your ears bleed, there were times I hated him when he played for us and I got the impression that was the general feeling. JJ was always a big arguing point, an ever decreasing crowd waiting for his potential to start paying off and the people that were sick of waiting.

 

I'm not sure of JJ's lifestyle but if it was anything like Dyer's then bling would not be an unfair comment, O'Brien's less bling than my granny.

 

Also why are you so obsessed with racism only being a black thing? O'Brien is Irish you know.

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O'Brien's from Harrogate

[adios 717]

O'Brien's from Harrogate

49290[/snapback]

 

Fuck, so he is.

 

Replace 'O'Brien' with 'Carr', he's been used in the same context.

[Guest alex]

O'Brien's from Harrogate

49290[/snapback]

 

Fuck, so he is.

 

Replace 'O'Brien' with 'Carr', he's been used in the same context.

49291[/snapback]

His name's a bit suspect mind

[bez 0]

JJ got lots and lots of abuse in the Leazes.  He is one of the few black players I have heard the words 'black bastard' shouted at recently.

Both got it Alex. This is simply an example. Look at the vitriol in the comment above. Find a similar AOB one? Its out of proportion to the kids displays and his temperament. Why?

49285[/snapback]

 

Some of the stuff I've said about O'Brien would make your ears bleed, there were times I hated him when he played for us and I got the impression that was the general feeling. JJ was always a big arguing point, an ever decreasing crowd waiting for his potential to start paying off and the people that were sick of waiting.

 

I'm not sure of JJ's lifestyle but if it was anything like Dyer's then bling would not be an unfair comment, O'Brien's less bling than my granny.

 

Also why are you so obsessed with racism only being a black thing? O'Brien is Irish you know.

49289[/snapback]

 

What exactly does his culture and its attendant 'bling' have to do with his ability?

There is, sadly, a direct correlation between the fact we seem to accept that we can use a term that is deeply seated in black culture follwed by the word 'bastard' and think it is acceptable.

 

It isnt. There is, in my opinion a link between SOME who use the terminology and the implication.

 

Why use it? As mentioned earlier, 'coloured' in context wasnt deemed to have much racist connotation 20-30 years ago. I suggest people need to consider the OED (Oxford English Dictionary) definition of the words 'coloured' and 'bling' and see that in some contexts we have seen on this forum and others it is beyond a joke.

 

AOB isnt Irish

Edited October 25, 2005 by bez

[Guest alex]

Personally I think 'bling' culture is shite but I would probably say Bellamy is 'bling' too along with people like Jordan. I would also say hip-hop gangster culture is pretty laughable too (especially when practiced by white middle class kids). I do like a bit of hip-hop though. Would you say my views make me racist?

[Guest alex]

AOB isn't Irish btw

[adios 717]

Apparently O'Brien isn't Irish. But Carr is, it was you who used the Baba/Carr comparison, bez?

[bez 0]

Personally I think 'bling' culture is shite but I would probably say Bellamy is 'bling' too along with people like Jordan. I would also say hip-hop gangster culture is pretty laughable too (especially when practiced by white middle class kids). I do like a bit of hip-hop though. Would you say my views make me racist?

49294[/snapback]

Youre trivialising an important issue Alex. You dont seem to understand the complexities of the situation.

 

 

No youre not.

 

Bellamy can never be 'bling' in anything other than the OED version of the word.

He has NEVER been called a 'bling bastard' on the forums in the context the others have. Check N-O or here for that comment. Do a search. See what it says. Explain why not.

 

Dyer, Jenas and Babayaro have despite Bellamy having more written about him than any player.

[Guest alex]

Apparently O'Brien isn't Irish.  But Carr is, it was you who used the Baba/Carr comparison, bez?

49296[/snapback]

He does play for Ireland though and he has Irish roots

[bez 0]

Apparently O'Brien isn't Irish.  But Carr is, it was you who used the Baba/Carr comparison, bez?

49296[/snapback]

One is white. One is black. i havent seen Carr described needlessly as a 'potato picking tosser' or anything else related to his Irish blood and hence there is no real need to explain it. Is there?

[bez 0]

Apparently O'Brien isn't Irish.  But Carr is, it was you who used the Baba/Carr comparison, bez?

49296[/snapback]

He does play for Ireland though and he has Irish roots

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In his hair?

did you ever watch Roots?

[adios 717]

Apparently O'Brien isn't Irish.  But Carr is, it was you who used the Baba/Carr comparison, bez?

49296[/snapback]

He does play for Ireland though and he has Irish roots

49298[/snapback]

 

I hope he doesn't play for Ireland any more. I've been cursed with the fecker twice, I really will always be grateful to Souness for getting rid, if for little else.

[adios 717]

Apparently O'Brien isn't Irish.  But Carr is, it was you who used the Baba/Carr comparison, bez?

49296[/snapback]

One is white. One is black. i havent seen Carr described needlessly as a 'potato picking tosser' or anything else related to his Irish blood and hence there is no real need to explain it. Is there?

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I've called him a miserable, grumpy Paddy bastard many's a time.

 

Well as long as you've never experienced it, that's ok. Irish people suffer bigotry in the UK btw.

[bez 0]

Apparently O'Brien isn't Irish.  But Carr is, it was you who used the Baba/Carr comparison, bez?

49296[/snapback]

One is white. One is black. i havent seen Carr described needlessly as a 'potato picking tosser' or anything else related to his Irish blood and hence there is no real need to explain it. Is there?

49299[/snapback]

 

I've called him a miserable, grumpy Paddy bastard many's a time.

 

Well as long as you've never experienced it, that's ok. Irish people suffer bigotry in the UK btw.

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Of course they do. However:

Ever seen Craig Bellamy described on here as a Bling bastard?

Why not? Despite having more written about him than any player in our recent history.

 

So why do they reserve it for JJ, Dyer and Babayaro?

 

Bellamy is (using the OED definition-very differnt from its true meaning and origin, 'bling')

(just before you start - have a look at the word 'coloured' in the OED and see the analogy)

 

Do people regularly align stephen Carr's footballing ability to the term 'paddy bastard' (which is indeed racist) Not really.

 

Plenty there for thought.

Edited October 25, 2005 by bez

[Guest alex]

Personally I think 'bling' culture is shite but I would probably say Bellamy is 'bling' too along with people like Jordan. I would also say hip-hop gangster culture is pretty laughable too (especially when practiced by white middle class kids). I do like a bit of hip-hop though. Would you say my views make me racist?

49294[/snapback]

Youre trivialising an important issue Alex. You dont seem to understand the complexities of the situation.

 

 

No youre not.

 

Bellamy can never be 'bling' in anything other than the OED version of the word.

He has NEVER been called a 'bling bastard' on the forums in the context the others have. Check N-O or here for that comment. Do a search. See what it says. Explain why not.

 

Dyer, Jenas and Babayaro have despite Bellamy having more written about him than any player.

49297[/snapback]

I'm not trivialising it. How can I explain what other people meant though? Calling someone a bling bastard means they're flash though no? Also, what's wrong with using the OED version of the word? I tend to go with dictionary definitions rather than ones people apply to words in order to justify their argument.

 

In any case, what point are you making. If you are saying a small minority of people have a racist agenda (or partly racist, i.e. the player's crap and on top of that he's black) when criticising players, then I would agree. However, the vast majority are not like this.

[Guest alex]

Bellamy's a bling bastard like

[adios 717]

I'm not trivialising it. How can I explain what other people meant though? Calling someone a bling bastard means they're flash though no? Also, what's wrong with using the OED version of the word? I tend to go with dictionary definitions rather than ones people apply to words in order to justify their argument.

 

In any case, what point are you making. If you are saying a small minority of people have a racist agenda (or partly racist, i.e. the player's crap and on top of that he's black) when criticising players, then I would agree. However, the vast majority are not like this.

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I think you're typing this in full Nazi regalia tbh.

[bez 0]

Personally I think 'bling' culture is shite but I would probably say Bellamy is 'bling' too along with people like Jordan. I would also say hip-hop gangster culture is pretty laughable too (especially when practiced by white middle class kids). I do like a bit of hip-hop though. Would you say my views make me racist?

49294[/snapback]

Youre trivialising an important issue Alex. You dont seem to understand the complexities of the situation.

 

 

No youre not.

 

Bellamy can never be 'bling' in anything other than the OED version of the word.

He has NEVER been called a 'bling bastard' on the forums in the context the others have. Check N-O or here for that comment. Do a search. See what it says. Explain why not.

 

Dyer, Jenas and Babayaro have despite Bellamy having more written about him than any player.

49297[/snapback]

I'm not trivialising it. How can I explain what other people meant though? Calling someone a bling bastard means they're flash though no? Also, what's wrong with using the OED version of the word? I tend to go with dictionary definitions rather than ones people apply to words in order to justify their argument.

 

In any case, what point are you making. If you are saying a small minority of people have a racist agenda (or partly racist, i.e. the player's crap and on top of that he's black) when criticising players, then I would agree. However, the vast majority are not like this.

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I will say this ONCE more

look at the word 'coloured' in the OED and go out and call a big BLACK bloke it.

See the comparison?

 

Now go and find the origin of 'bling' and compare with the OED

 

Different meanings. Very different.

 

Now explain why the bloke you described as 'bling' never had the term used as a descriptor but the black fellas did.

Frequently , by posters on NUFC websites and in pubs.

[Happy Face 29]

but in contrast to your point about having no non white high court judges, senior politicians etc the US is completely the opposite. Yet its the most racist country in the world ??

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Define 'opposite'. Are you suggesting they're predominantly black?

 

An increased level of non-white people in positions of power will always highten racial tension in the short term (Martin Luther King & Malcolm X got a bit too big for their political boots). It's not what racists want. once it becomes the norm, many many years from now, things will die down. No pain, no gain.

[adios 717]

I will say this ONCE more

look at the word 'coloured' in the OED and go out and call a big BLACK bloke it.

See the comparison?

 

Now go and find the origin of 'bling' and compare with the OED

 

Different meanings. Very different.

 

Now explain why the bloke you described as 'bling' never had the term used as a descriptor but the black fellas did.

Frequently , by posters on NUFC websites and in pubs.

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Isn't inciting racial hatred a crime?