Racism in football

[Renton 21576]

Jesus wept. This has gone way off topic considering it's the football forum. But to steer it back on topic a bit re: positive descrimination, would it be acceptable to play a black footballer at SJP simply because he was black, when there was an equally good, or better, white player available? I suspect 99.9999% of people would think not. So if it's not the correct thing to do in the world of football, why is it in any other job?

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Because most workplace interviews are based on a half hour chat and a CV. When you can't decide, then I think swaying towards a non-white or non-male applicant is valid for the sake of workplace equality (or if it's a job predominantly done by womer, err towards giving it to a male applicant).

 

Getting into a team is based on years of past knowledge of a player and what they're going to bring. You're never going to think two places are the same. Throughout the rest of the club positive discrimination should be encouraged.

 

A few years back every member of bar-staff in the Leazes was 'non-white' as much as I encourage positive discrimination, half of them couldn't even speak English and were incapable of doing the job well. There must have been complaints because the staff now seem a lot more able to understand what is being ordered.

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Yes, I remember those Chinese staff were useless, but probably cheap, which is why I imagined they were employed.

 

I'm not sure I agree with the rest of your argument but I'm glad you put your point across.

[Happy Face 29]

You see I can't see how you've turned a father being worried about his daughter getting hassled about going out with a black fella into 'irrational hatred'.  I'd call that pretty sensationalist.  I was trying to point out that labelling things like that racist, stands in the way of decent debate.

 

I didn't say the other but very clearly - I meant: 

 

Fathers are often irrational in their protection of their daughters but to see a problem and protect their daughter from it is rational.

 

On the working class issue, I'm not looking at statistics, I'm speaking from personal experience.  I have a working class background (in Ireland) and it's the worst racism I've experienced.  I have hung around with all classes in a number of countries (including England) and that hasn't changed my opinion.

 

I think fear is produced by ignorance, which in turn produces hatred.  I don't feel the working classes are given the same opportunities for education.  It's not really controversial though, I don't think.

 

Just seen your PS, if you do that again, I'm pretty sure Ctrl-Z will fix your problem.

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But the only 'problem' is the boyfriend being black. He actually does very well in a good job, nice car, clothes, all round good egg. If the daughter brought home a zinc deficient rat-boy charver chugging on a bottle of Lambrini, that should be a 'problem'.

 

To call his blackness a problem is racist.

 

PS. DAMNIT!!

[k4t0 0]

Play the best player, simple as that really, I dont care what their background is.

[Guest alex]

The staff in question all now work as phone operators in the box office at NUFC

[adios 717]

But the only 'problem' is the boyfriend being black.  He actually does very well in a good job, nice car, clothes, all round good egg.  If the daughter brought home a zinc deficient rat-boy charver chugging on a bottle of Lambrini, that should be a 'problem'.

 

To call his blackness a problem is racist.

 

PS.  DAMNIT!!

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No, the problem is the grief they'll get from others. Is that grief racist? Yes. Is it wrong to protect someone you love from that? No. I'm not saying it's great that things are that way, but recognising that racism is a real problem (on both sides) and protecting people from it is not racism.

 

PS

 

EDIT: On the positive discrimination in football comment, have a look at the starting 11 of a lot of clubs, is it really neccessary?

Edited October 25, 2005 by DotBum

[Renton 21576]

Hmmm, despite 12 pages I'm yet to be convinced that Shola gets stick for any other reason than the fact he is usually shit. When he has a good game, like Sunday, he is rightfully praised.

[Happy Face 29]

I never mentioned a persecution complex, tell me where i did. Neither did I say that racism was down to what I was pointing out. Thanks for reading soemthing into what I wrote for the sake of a one liner, nice one. Its merely about how minority groups are less represented in certain areas. There are cultural reasons for this that are not based on race.

 

The Met actually had a massive drive to recruit more officers from minority groups, what happened? No applicants. Why? You're right in that the image of the police force probabaly is a factor. The biggest though is that it just isnt done, peer pressure. Its the same with the white working class. Theres plenty of people who I know who would treat me differently if I was a police officer, theres some who wouldnt have anything to do with me.

 

Achievement and success at school arent celebrated or held in high enough regard. Its nothing different than the likes of Sydney Poitier, Spike Lee and Denzel Washington have spoken out about. Young black culture needs to look at what it holds in high regard. At the moment its lawlessness. Why the disparity between asians and blacks then in the figures? Are we more racist against blacks than asians or do the asian community have differing values?

 

Its a generalisation and obviously doesnt hold true for all young black people but no one can deny theres an issue there.

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Apologies for my presumptiosness. Obviously black people should be pro-active in looking for opportunities. I just don't agree that it's as simple as leaving it up to them. Lawlessness is glamourised to white people as much as black. Lawlessness is an option that appeals more to the poor. Most black people in the UK are poor therefore crime appeals to most black people, if more black people were given opportunities for work, they wouldn't need to turn to crime.

[Happy Face 29]

Hmmm, despite 12 pages I'm yet to be convinced that Shola gets stick for any other reason than the fact he is usually shit. When he has a good game, like Sunday, he is rightfully praised.

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Spotton.

[Guest alex]

Hmmm, despite 12 pages I'm yet to be convinced that Shola gets stick for any other reason than the fact he is usually shit. When he has a good game, like Sunday, he is rightfully praised.

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As someone who has a bit of time for Shola (despite finding it harder and harder to defend him of late) I was delighted for him on Sunday. My biggest gripe is those people who give him unfair stick and who are almost wanting him to fail. I've got a couple like that behind me as I've mentioned several times before. However, I don't think for a minute they're racist, they just think he's shite.

[k4t0 0]

Agreed, shola gets stick because he doesnt seem to try as hard as he can, I think its frustrating to watch him when we know he has more talent than what we see week in week out.

 

Credit where its due, if he can put in a few more games like that one then I can see him replacing shearer for the time being, with shearer being benched and brought on a la big dunc.

 

Im hoping the lad can shut us all up and come good, its not beyind him to do that imo

[luckypierre 0]

Apologies for my presumptiosness. Obviously black people should be pro-active in looking for opportunities. I just don't agree that it's as simple as leaving it up to them. Lawlessness is glamourised to white people as much as black. Lawlessness is an option that appeals more to the poor. Most black people in the UK are poor therefore crime appeals to most black people, if more black people were given opportunities for work, they wouldn't need to turn to crime.

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exactly mate and thats my point. It isnt just about race

 

the social reasons for the disparity need to be tackled, on both sides. Simply looking favourably on non white applicants wont do that

Edited October 25, 2005 by luckypierre

[Renton 21576]

Well, the only people on the thread that think that the treatment of our players on the pitch depends on their race seem to be bez and Bridget. They're entitiled to their opinions, but it is interesting that everyone else disagrees.

 

Personally, I am completely confident I'm not a racist, in the same way that I am confident enough about my sexuality that I am not "afraid" of homosexuals. I think most people think like this now, thank God. And that is surely the way forward. Maybe for once we should realise how far we have come forward without panicking about how far we have still to go.

[Happy Face 29]

Apologies for my presumptiosness. Obviously black people should be pro-active in looking for opportunities. I just don't agree that it's as simple as leaving it up to them. Lawlessness is glamourised to white people as much as black. Lawlessness is an option that appeals more to the poor. Most black people in the UK are poor therefore crime appeals to most black people, if more black people were given opportunities for work, they wouldn't need to turn to crime.

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exactly mate and thats my point. It isnt just about race

 

the social reasons for the disparity need to be tackled, on both sides. Simply looking favourably on non white applicants wont do that

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But if the social reason is that most black people are poor, and work would make them not poor, isn't positive discrimination a good tool in tackling the social reasons for the disparity?

[Renton 21576]

Apologies for my presumptiosness. Obviously black people should be pro-active in looking for opportunities. I just don't agree that it's as simple as leaving it up to them. Lawlessness is glamourised to white people as much as black. Lawlessness is an option that appeals more to the poor. Most black people in the UK are poor therefore crime appeals to most black people, if more black people were given opportunities for work, they wouldn't need to turn to crime.

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exactly mate and thats my point. It isnt just about race

 

the social reasons for the disparity need to be tackled, on both sides. Simply looking favourably on non white applicants wont do that

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But if the social reason is that most black people are poor, and work would make them not poor, isn't positive discrimination a good tool in tackling the social reasons for the disparity?

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Or you could just tackle the underlying cause, which is poverty and poor education per se, not race.

[k4t0 0]

I think it only goes so far though, it may encourage more black applicants to apply but they still have to get the job on merit, same as everyone else.

 

But yes, positive discrimination can be a usefull tool in encouraging more people to apply for jobs.

[Happy Face 29]

Or you could just tackle the underlying cause, which is poverty and poor education per se, not race.

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Well poverty and education are currently such that we can have a pretty much uniformly white Prime Minister, cabinet, House of commons, House of Lords, Police Force judicial system etc, etc

 

So there is only a problem with povert and education with some whites, but with most blacks.

[Renton 21576]

Or you could just tackle the underlying cause, which is poverty and poor education per se, not race.

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Well poverty and education are currently such that we can have a pretty much uniformly white Prime Minister, cabinet, House of commons, House of Lords, Police Force judicial system etc, etc

 

So there is only a problem with povert and education with some whites, but with most blacks.

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It's difficult, I know, I'm not sure what the solutions are. Ironically, from a personal point of view, I see the the most poverty amongst white people. There are quite a large number of black/asian people I know employed as clinical or research doctors, earning a lot of money. Yet virtually all the scumbags I see on the Metro are white trash. To me this reinforces the idea that the root cause of the problem is cultural and societal (if there's such a word) rather than being about race. I can imagine it is very different in London mind.

[Shearergol 0]

Or you could just tackle the underlying cause, which is poverty and poor education per se, not race.

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Well poverty and education are currently such that we can have a pretty much uniformly white Prime Minister, cabinet, House of commons, House of Lords, Police Force judicial system etc, etc

 

So there is only a problem with povert and education with some whites, but with most blacks.

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It's difficult, I know, I'm not sure what the solutions are. Ironically, from a personal point of view, I see the the most poverty amongst white people. There are quite a large number of black/asian people I know employed as clinical or research doctors, earning a lot of money. Yet virtually all the scumbags I see on the Metro are white trash. To me this reinforces the idea that the root cause of the problem is cultural and societal (if there's such a word) rather than being about race. I can imagine it is very different in London mind.

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What percentage of non-whites in London are also non-English though?

 

Where do you stand on asylum seekers?*

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

* not just tin hat on, but also expecting the obvious answer

[luckyluke 2]

Or you could just tackle the underlying cause, which is poverty and poor education per se, not race.

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Well poverty and education are currently such that we can have a pretty much uniformly white Prime Minister, cabinet, House of commons, House of Lords, Police Force judicial system etc, etc

 

So there is only a problem with povert and education with some whites, but with most blacks.

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It's difficult, I know, I'm not sure what the solutions are. Ironically, from a personal point of view, I see the the most poverty amongst white people. There are quite a large number of black/asian people I know employed as clinical or research doctors, earning a lot of money. Yet virtually all the scumbags I see on the Metro are white trash. To me this reinforces the idea that the root cause of the problem is cultural and societal (if there's such a word) rather than being about race. I can imagine it is very different in London mind.

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Very different in Leeds and Bradford as well.

[Happy Face 29]

What percentage of non-whites in London are also non-English though?

 

Where do you stand on asylum seekers?*

 

* not just tin hat on, but also expecting the obvious answer

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I have every sympathy for asylum seekers and hope that every effort is made to help them settle (if they have become a useful contributor to our society) or to be comfortable before humanely being able to go home.

Edited October 25, 2005 by Happy Face

[Guest alex]

Or you could just tackle the underlying cause, which is poverty and poor education per se, not race.

49196[/snapback]

 

Well poverty and education are currently such that we can have a pretty much uniformly white Prime Minister, cabinet, House of commons, House of Lords, Police Force judicial system etc, etc

 

So there is only a problem with povert and education with some whites, but with most blacks.

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It's difficult, I know, I'm not sure what the solutions are. Ironically, from a personal point of view, I see the the most poverty amongst white people. There are quite a large number of black/asian people I know employed as clinical or research doctors, earning a lot of money. Yet virtually all the scumbags I see on the Metro are white trash. To me this reinforces the idea that the root cause of the problem is cultural and societal (if there's such a word) rather than being about race. I can imagine it is very different in London mind.

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Very different in Leeds and Bradford as well.

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And up the West End.

[manc-mag 1]

Thought he had a canny game tbh.

[Renton 21576]

Or you could just tackle the underlying cause, which is poverty and poor education per se, not race.

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Well poverty and education are currently such that we can have a pretty much uniformly white Prime Minister, cabinet, House of commons, House of Lords, Police Force judicial system etc, etc

 

So there is only a problem with povert and education with some whites, but with most blacks.

49198[/snapback]

 

 

It's difficult, I know, I'm not sure what the solutions are. Ironically, from a personal point of view, I see the the most poverty amongst white people. There are quite a large number of black/asian people I know employed as clinical or research doctors, earning a lot of money. Yet virtually all the scumbags I see on the Metro are white trash. To me this reinforces the idea that the root cause of the problem is cultural and societal (if there's such a word) rather than being about race. I can imagine it is very different in London mind.

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Very different in Leeds and Bradford as well.

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And up the West End.

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Fortunately I can avoid the west end. But in Newcastle, there are very few black people (as opposed to Asians), and a lot of them are involved with the University or hospitals I have found. I feel much safer sitting next to a black person on the metro than a white person dressed in the usual track suit bottoms etc. Does this make me racist?

 

Oh, and I have no problem with immigrants or asylum seekers. They are the least of this country's problems imo.

[Howaythetoon 0]

Positive discrimination in my opinion defeats the purpose and will only serve to inflame the issue even more. While I can see why PD is used, I just think it's a defeatest way of looking at things, a sweeping it under the carpet kind of thing if you like.

 

In fact, is it not kind of racist in a way? If for example, myself (a white bloke) and a black bloke went for the same job and he got it because of his skin color, is that not racist against me?

 

Is that not like the dark old days when black people and ethnic minorities were refused jobs because of their skin color?

 

Or am I reading it all wrong?

 

Either way I don't like it.

 

But what are the other options? How do you get more black people and ethnic minorities into white dominated workforces, institutions and into offices of 'power'?

 

I think the Asian community have shown the way. They prioritise education and good work ethic and as a result they now have their fingers in many pies to use an old cliche, if they can do it then so can black people and other minorities.

 

And it's not just a black/minority issue either. As someone who grew up in a white dominated area where 70% of the population were unemployed and lacking basic education, it's very much an issue for many people, regardless of race.

 

One of the arguments on here is that it's tougher for black people or ethnic minorities to "get on in life" than it is for white people, that may be the case in some instances sure, but it's like that for many white people too.

 

For me, and this is opening up a whole new debate here, it's a class issue in my opinion. Take down those class barriers and you will defeat racism or combat it effectively and in doing so combat a lot of other equally disturbing issues that exist in society.

 

The class issue is a bigger issue than racism and is much more damaging to society.

 

Ironically I have found that those without good jobs and a good education (the lower-class or working-class) are less likely to be racist than those with good jobs and a good education behind them. Which could explain why there hasn't been a black Prime Minister candidate or a Black Mayor of London just to use an example.

 

While in areas where I grew up you will almost certainly hear the phrases "darkie", "packie" etc. where as you wouldn't in areas like Jesmond for example, I would say these areas and these people are less likely to be racist than the more affluent areas. Or less likely to be racist than one would imagine or consider given the phrase that people use in the type of area where I grew up to describe, say for example, an Asian.

 

Where I grew up an Asian is a "darkie", is that racism or vernacular? Hard to say but I will say that we must not confuse slang with deep rooted racism.

 

For me you will never ever stop someone from calling an Asian for example a "darkie" or vice versa, you will never stamp that out just like you will never stamp out someone calling an obese person "fatty" or someone wearing specs "geppy" or "4 eyes".

 

It's at the top, the real deep rooted racism whereby someone doesn't get a job based on their skin color, despite being perfectly qualified and experienced, that needs stamped out, that is bad for society.

 

That's the real areas of change we need to inforce, but not by positive discrimation because you're creating a whole new culture of inadvertant discrimination that will probably pop up in years yet passed and bite society on the arse.

 

If you are given people a leg up you're creating a lazy, dependent society devoid of endevour, ambition and the will to succeed.

 

As already mentioned, Asian people in my experience are ideal templates for other ethnic minorities because these people have not only adapted to our country, they have also changed it and above all else, they play a major role in how we as a nation operate today in the 21st century.

 

People also need to ditch the persecution complexes, the chips on shoulders and stop blaming this and that and looking for excuses.

 

Oh, and bring down the class walls.

[LeazesMag 0]

why

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For being a bully and a bigot, mainly.

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I thought you meant a successful manager, who was such a good manager, players followed him from club to club to play for him for a moment ....

 

Read his books. And those by others who talk about him. Clough was no bully.

 

He is, sadly, the sort of manager that Souness can only dream of being

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bump