Racism in football

[Shearergol 0]

As for black coppers, I have seen black coppers. And, whats your solution HE, fast track them, as you seem to be saying too ?

 

And You have to select the right candidates.

 

On one hand, you say highlighting a persons colour is wrong, then you say you need to do it. Roll on the PC brigade again eh ....

49057[/snapback]

 

No, you're misrepresenting what I say quite a bit there. There's a difference between 'highlighting' someones skin colour negatively to cause harm or pain or to hinder their progression; and pointing out the most distinguishing feature about them in order to identify them. My point is directed precisely against the 80's PC brigade who got it in their heads that any reference to a persons skin colour is wrong.

 

Sorry, I've remembered I've seen a few black coppers too, but they were all on telly, so they were more black actors. I don't know what you mean 'Fast track'? What I'm saying is a black applicants to the police force should be looked upon very favourably and if they meet the entry criteria encouraged in every way to join.

 

I'm coming accross as a right crusader here. I'm not (see the bad taste thread).

49082[/snapback]

 

 

[devils advocate]but surely then that would cause more racial tension between whites and blacks because whites would feel that they are losing out because of the colour of their skin[/devils advocate]

[Guest alex]

The term 'Crusader' is Islamaphobic tbh

[adios 717]

Positive discrimination is a tough one. You can see the argument for giving someone a leg up who's had a tougher time of it to even things out a bit in the long run. I'm thinking more about the US than the UK, where I'm not sure the problem is nearly as severe.

 

But ultimately are you not just prolonging negative discrimination by 'unfairly' helping them? I don't think I'd do it in the UK.

[Happy Face 29]

A positive discrimination analogy for you.

 

2 dogs have an owner who trusts them to divvy up their food between themselves. Everyday a big pile of scran arrives. One dog gets there first and wolfs it down while the other dog was looking the other way. This goes on every day for years. The dog who constantly ate grows big and strong, the other one who lived on scraps and dust is weak and frail.

 

In the end the RSPCA does the owner for cruelty and the 2 dogs are sent to a new home. Should the new owner split the food into 2 separate bowls for the dogs or trust that it'll sort itself out and keep putting out 1 big bowl?

 

You've got to take from one dog to help the other dog.

[Shearergol 0]

A positive discrimination analogy for you.

 

2 dogs have an owner who trusts them to divvy up their food between themselves.  Everyday a big pile of scran arrives.  One dog gets there first and wolfs it down while the other dog was looking the other way.  This goes on every day for years.  The dog who constantly ate grows big and strong, the other one who lived on scraps and dust is weak and frail.

 

In the end the RSPCA does the owner for cruelty and the 2 dogs are sent to a new home.  Should the new owner split the food into 2 separate bowls for the dogs or trust that it'll sort itself out and keep putting out 1 big bowl?

 

You've got to take from one dog to help the other dog.

49096[/snapback]

 

Not the greatest of analogies to be honest. How about if one dog was a lab, and the other a collie. The lab gets most of the food to start with. Should you then take away from all labs in the world, and give to all collies?

 

In your example though you're not positively discriminating, you're being equal. Giving a job to a black rather than a white purely to level things up isn't being equal. Giving them both a job is.

[Guest alex]

In my view the main problem with positive discrimination is that it is a short-term fix that tackles the symptoms of the problem and not the cause.

[luckypierre 0]

nice analogy, complete nonsense, but nice all the same

 

the white dog isnt getting more than it deserves, neither is the black dog

 

unless you are saying that black people arent in certain positions because of the colour of their skin which as far as Im concerned is rubbish. It has to be on merit. Any discrimination of any kind is wrong, even positive, all it does is reinforce negative views in the minds of the non positvely discriminated. You dont have a lack of black police officers because of the police force being racist , you have less because less black people apply for that type job. Same as you have less working class white people in the police force. There are cultural reasons why people belonging to these groups are going to be less represented

 

It comes down to education. Thats the only way you are going to change peoples views and the only way people can better themselves. Young black culture as a whole needs to have a good hard look at itself and what it values and what it celebrates

[bez 0]

• Ethnic minorities account for approximately 5.6% of the UK's population.

[Office for National Statistics]

• Unemployment stands at 6% for whites, 8% for Indians, 19% among the black community, and 21% among Bangladeshis and Pakistanis.

 

• 23% of those studying medicine are from ethnic minorities.

[HESA Students in Higher Education]

 

• Ethnic minorities make up 1% of the Armed forces. The MoD target is 5% by 2002. [MoD]

An African graduate is seven times more likely to be unemployed than a white graduate.

[institute for social & economic research (Uni. of Essex)]

 

• On average, Pakistani/Bangladeshi men earn just over half the salary of their white peers. Caribbean & African men earn approximately two thirds.

[institute for social & economic research (Uni. of Essex)]

 

• Only 52 of the 3,000 senior civil servants are from ethnic minorities. Of those, 46 are men and six are women.

[Whitehall figures]

 

• 47% of Britain's ethnic minorities live in London.

[Office of National Statistics.]

 

• Caribbean men are more likely than any other ethnic group to be in a mixed-race relationship. One third of Caribbean women and Asian men are with a white partner.

[PSI]

 

• There are no black high court judges. 15.8% of new solicitors are black or Asian and 8.5% of barristers are non-white.

[Law Society, 1998]

 

• More than 40% of 16-17yr olds from ethnic minority groups are unemployed compared with 18% of their white peers.

[Labour Force Survey]

 

• Black people nearly eight times more likely to be stopped and searched, 4 times more likely to be arrested than white people.

[statewatch]

 

• Only 29% of Black teens passed five GCSE exams at grade C or above compared with 47% of white teenagers, 53% of Indians and 61% of SE Asians.

[Ofsted report]

 

• Asians account for nearly 10% of university applications compared with 3.3% from Black students.

[PSI]

 

• Black people are between four and seven times more likely to be sentenced to prison terms than white people.

[statewatch - (police research group)]

 

• Black children are six times more likely to be expelled or suspended from school than their white counterparts.

[Children's society.1999]

 

 

Some worrying issues?

 

There are similar situations between male and female although we don't have an lasses playing for NUFC first team just yet. The difference in pay for the SAME job for men and women is about that a woman is paid about 20% less. There are similar problems between white /black.

 

Nb: Issues in Birmingham recently are not to far away from Toxteth 20 odd years ago.

It HASNT gone away.

Edited October 25, 2005 by bez

[luckypierre 0]

you're more intelligent than putting the reasons for those statistics purely down to race

 

Whats the average age of a high court judge or someone senior in the civil service? How many people from working class white backgrounds are in those positions?

[adios 717]

A positive discrimination analogy for you.

 

2 dogs have an owner who trusts them to divvy up their food between themselves.  Everyday a big pile of scran arrives.  One dog gets there first and wolfs it down while the other dog was looking the other way.  This goes on every day for years.  The dog who constantly ate grows big and strong, the other one who lived on scraps and dust is weak and frail.

 

In the end the RSPCA does the owner for cruelty and the 2 dogs are sent to a new home.  Should the new owner split the food into 2 separate bowls for the dogs or trust that it'll sort itself out and keep putting out 1 big bowl?

 

You've got to take from one dog to help the other dog.

49096[/snapback]

 

reductionist tbh.

[Happy Face 29]

Not the greatest of analogies to be honest. How about if one dog was a lab, and the other a collie. The lab gets most of the food to start with. Should you then take away from all labs in the world, and give to all collies?

49097[/snapback]

 

Eh? it's an analogy, why would it refer to all dogs. It's not like 1 black person has been abused, every black person in the UK has probably been victimised at some point.

 

In your example though you're not positively discriminating, you're being equal. Giving a job to a black rather than a white purely to level things up isn't being equal. Giving them both a job is.

49097[/snapback]

 

Oops, that's right. Ok amend it, the scrawny dog should be given more for a while to built its strength up.

[k4t0 0]

The statistics on employment dont hold any weight, there are bound to be less ethnic minorites than whites in jobs here, there are less of them.

 

The figures on who is more likely to be arrested, expelled from school etc...

 

Can you put that down to racism alone? Or is there an underlying culture in some minorites that encourages crime?

 

For example religous fantacism.

 

And what do they mean by black? asian, muslim ? black britains?

 

Black people are not an ethnic minority unless they choose to belong to an ethnic minority group.

 

Flawed statistics imo.

 

Yes, racism does exist, it always will, some parts of our culture still promote it.

 

I do not think that a black person with ambition is massively worse off than a white man with the same.

 

Thats equal rights.

[bez 0]

Discrimination relating to pay:

 

Equal opps commision details stats.

 

http://www.eoc-law.org.uk/Default.aspx?page=2685

 

black people (same job examples are noted) get paid LESS than white counterparts

 

 

FOOTBALL RACISM - decent article from the BBC.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/4034423.stm

 

 

To those who simply say 'mentioning it is as bad as being it' or similar .....look at the statistics and tell me how you think it will go away if we simply ignore it.

 

It isnt all people, but as Bridget says..there probably is a subconscious at work and it isnt favouring equality.

[k4t0 0]

Heres an example of positive discrimination....

 

I go out on a weekend, get into a fight, get beat, have a black eye etc... the police dont do anything.

 

A black or ethnic minority person does the same, gets into a fight, police tell them they cant do anything, then they go to the papers, middle page spread of a man with a black eye claiming a racist attack and using the mass media and positive discrimination to help racism on a bit.

 

Makes sense really, why get rid of something that can help you on in life?

[bez 0]

you're more intelligent than putting the reasons for those statistics purely down to race

 

Whats the average age of a high court judge or someone senior in the civil service? How many people from working class white backgrounds are in those positions?

49105[/snapback]

There are reasons for these issues. I don't believe there is ONE reason for any ONE issue though.

When the pay ones are worked out. Is it a minor discrepancy?

 

Look at the equal opps web site

Look at the DTI web site

 

Women in similar jobs get paid less than men. Acceptable?

Black people in similar jobs find promotion more difficult than whites. Acceptable?

 

There are always flaws in statistics.

I was asked to bring some to the debate. These are simply a selection.

[k4t0 0]

Discrimination relating to pay:

 

Equal opps commision details stats.

 

http://www.eoc-law.org.uk/Default.aspx?page=2685

 

black people (same job examples are noted) get paid LESS than white counterparts

 

 

FOOTBALL RACISM - decent article from the BBC.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/4034423.stm

 

 

To those who simply say 'mentioning it is as bad as being it' or similar .....look at the statistics and tell me how you think it will go away if we simply ignore it.

 

It isnt all people, but as Bridget says..there probably is a subconscious at work and it isnt favouring equality.

49109[/snapback]

 

I get paid less than people doing the same job as me, they are further up the scale for having more responsibility, or by merely being older, not many of the older black and ethnic minority groups had the chances that the younger ones do when they were young themselves, look at those stats in 20 years or so andthey will paint a better picture

[Guest alex]

Heres an example of positive discrimination....

 

I go out on a weekend, get into a fight, get beat, have a black eye etc... the police dont do anything.

 

A black or ethnic minority person does the same, gets into a fight, police tell them they cant do anything, then they go to the papers, middle page spread of a man with a black eye claiming a racist attack and using the mass media and positive discrimination to help racism on a bit.

 

Makes sense really, why get rid of something that can help you on in life?

49111[/snapback]

The Stephen Lawrence case doesn't really add much weight to your argument does it?

[adios 717]

black people (same job examples are noted) get paid LESS than white counterparts

Is that because they aren't really as capable as their peers but got the job due to positive discrimination?

[k4t0 0]

Thats one example of racially motivated crime that was genuine, in that case it was disgusting and proves that racism is still about in society.

 

I was speaking more generally and not about that incident, if you want to discuss Stephen lawrence then I am sure most would agree it was very wrong and handled very badly.

 

Im not claiming racism doesnt exist, just putting a viewpoint across that it is easy for a racist incident to be claimed when in fact it may not have been racist at all.

 

It doesnt add much weight to the stats argument either.

[Happy Face 29]

nice analogy, complete nonsense, but nice all the same

 

the white dog isnt getting more than it deserves, neither is the black dog

 

unless you are saying that black people arent in certain positions because of the colour of their skin which as far as Im concerned is rubbish. It has to be on merit. Any discrimination of any kind is wrong, even positive, all it does is reinforce negative views in the minds of the non positvely discriminated. You dont have a lack of black police officers because of the police force being racist , you have less because less black people apply for that type job. Same as you have less working class white people in the police force. There are cultural reasons why people belonging to these groups are going to be less represented

 

 

49101[/snapback]

 

 

Now that's bullshit. The Police Force is a racist institution, as admitted at its highest level. Would you want to apply for a job where you're going to get abused daily? Not just by the people you're policing but by your co-workers?

 

It comes down to education.  Thats the only way you are going to change peoples views and the only way people can better themselves. Young black culture as a whole needs to have a good hard look at itself and what it values and what it celebrates

 

Oh aye racism is all down to black people having a persecution complex. Jesus.

 

They have been persecuted and have every right to have a bit of a complex. My cousin has been told by 3 separate girls (who he liked and was 'intimate with') that they couldn't actually go out with him because their dads would kill them.

You know what it's like to hear that? I mean, people get dumped for good reasons and turn to drink, but being dumped because of someone elses ignorance will give you a bit of a chip on your shoulder.

 

With every passing generation things get better. Working class people are probably the least racist (since most black people are working class) and I think football would be far more inviting than rugby.

[adios 717]

Thats one example of racially motivated crime that was genuine, in that case it was disgusting and proves that racism is still about in society.

 

I was speaking more generally and not about that incident, if you want to discuss Stephen lawrence then I am sure most would agree it was very wrong and handled very badly.

 

Im not claiming racism doesnt exist, just putting a viewpoint across that it is easy for a racist incident to be claimed when in fact it may not have been racist at all.

 

It doesnt add much weight to the stats argument either.

49119[/snapback]

 

Would that have been any less disgusting had it been a white on white crime?

[adios 717]

Oh aye racism is all down to black people having a persecution complex.  Jesus.

49120[/snapback]

 

They have been persecuted and have every right to have a bit of a complex.  My cousin has been told by 3 separate girls (who he liked and was 'intimate with') that they couldn't actually go out with him because their dads would kill them.

You know what it's like to hear that?  I mean, people get dumped for good reasons and turn to drink, but being dumped because of someone elses ignorance will give you a bit of a chip on your shoulder.

 

With every passing generation things get better.  Working class people are probably the least racist (since most black people are working class) and I think football would be far more inviting than rugby.

 

It's not neccessarily ignorant not to want a daughter to go out with a black guy. I have friends who've had black partners and they've never had an easy time from either 'side'. Father's always want the best for their daughters, often irrationally, but that's perfectly rational.

 

And I really have to question what you say about the working classes being the least racist

Edited October 25, 2005 by DotBum

[k4t0 0]

It all depends if it was racially motivated or not.

 

Had it been a white boy killed by blacks for purely being white, or even a white boy killed by racists for having black mates etc then yes, equally as disgusting.

 

If it was a fight over other reasons and somebody had stabbed him then yes, still disgusting.

 

The handling by the police was the disgusting thing in that case which made it even worse.

 

Nobody deserves to be killed in a fight, the people who do such things need putting away, its a crime there is no justification for.

 

But its a good question, if he was white would the media have treat the cas e the same?

[Guest alex]

It all depends if it was racially motivated or not.

 

Had it been a white boy killed by blacks for purely being white, or even a white boy killed by racists for having black mates etc then yes, equally as disgusting.

 

If it was a fight over other reasons and somebody had stabbed him then yes, still disgusting.

 

The handling by the police was the disgusting thing in that case which made it even worse.

 

Nobody deserves to be killed in a fight, the people who do such things need putting away, its a crime there is no justification for.

 

But its a good question, if he was white would the media have treat the cas e the same?

49128[/snapback]

If he was white the police wouldn't have assumed he had been killed as a result of some turf war over drugs and would have investigated the case properly.

[adios 717]

It all depends if it was racially motivated or not.

 

Had it been a white boy killed by blacks for purely being white, or even a white boy killed by racists for having black mates etc then yes, equally as disgusting.

 

If it was a fight over other reasons and somebody had stabbed him then yes, still disgusting.

 

The handling by the police was the disgusting thing in that case which made it even worse.

 

Nobody deserves to be killed in a fight, the people who do such things need putting away, its a crime there is no justification for.

 

But its a good question, if he was white would the media have treat the cas e the same?

49128[/snapback]

That's an easy question, no they wouldn't. I wouldn't get too caught up in media hyseria, or what we should probably call social hysteria, it's a good topic but not the one at hand.

 

If I brutally murder someone because they are black am I any worse than someone who brutally murders someone for sleeping with their wife? I'm not convinced.