Israel continues its merciless pounding of the defenceless.

[Fop 1]

"Shouldn't have voted for Hamas then should they"

 

we fight TWO wars in the Middle east to introduce DEMOCRACY but when they vote for the folk we don't like................

 

 

WW2?

 

 

Rob is right what we do these days is more or less put a dictatorship in place or bomb the fuck out of anyone who won't do everything we want.

 

Aye, but that's always been the case.

 

Democracy is the least worse system, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't throw up issues (be it WW2, Hamas, Kosovo - ethnic cleansing of Serbians under Democracy and effective UN Sanction, or earlier Mugarbe).

 

 

 

 

 

Interestingly as well (from a democratic point of view) the popular vote was much closer than the seats Hamas gained suggests:

 

Hamas 440,409 votes 44.45% 74 seats (29/45) (Proportional/District seats)

Fatah.. 410,554 votes 41.43% 45 seats (28/17) (Proportional/District seats)

 

So although Hamas won a big victory in administrative power they only just beat Fatah vote for vote.

[Park Life 71]

"Shouldn't have voted for Hamas then should they"

 

we fight TWO wars in the Middle east to introduce DEMOCRACY but when they vote for the folk we don't like................

 

 

WW2?

 

 

Rob is right what we do these days is more or less put a dictatorship in place or bomb the fuck out of anyone who won't do everything we want.

 

Aye, but that's always been the case.

 

Democracy is the least worse system, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't throw up issues (be it WW2, Hamas, Kosovo - ethnic cleansing of Serbians under Democracy and effective UN Sanction, or earlier Mugarbe).

 

 

 

 

 

Interestingly as well (from a democratic point of view) the popular vote was much closer than the seats Hamas gained suggests:

 

Hamas 440,409 votes 44.45% 74 seats (29/45) (Proportional/District seats)

Fatah.. 410,554 votes 41.43% 45 seats (28/17) (Proportional/District seats)

 

So although Hamas won a big victory in administrative power they only just beat Fatah vote for vote.

 

Didn't know that.

[Fop 1]

"Shouldn't have voted for Hamas then should they"

 

we fight TWO wars in the Middle east to introduce DEMOCRACY but when they vote for the folk we don't like................

 

 

WW2?

 

 

Rob is right what we do these days is more or less put a dictatorship in place or bomb the fuck out of anyone who won't do everything we want.

 

Aye, but that's always been the case.

 

Democracy is the least worse system, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't throw up issues (be it WW2, Hamas, Kosovo - ethnic cleansing of Serbians under Democracy and effective UN Sanction, or earlier Mugarbe).

 

 

 

 

 

Interestingly as well (from a democratic point of view) the popular vote was much closer than the seats Hamas gained suggests:

 

Hamas 440,409 votes 44.45% 74 seats (29/45) (Proportional/District seats)

Fatah.. 410,554 votes 41.43% 45 seats (28/17) (Proportional/District seats)

 

So although Hamas won a big victory in administrative power they only just beat Fatah vote for vote.

 

Didn't know that.

 

 

It certainly helps to explain why the Hamas/Fatah thing descended to quickly into effective civil war, although it didn't last so long as Fatah were pretty much outclassed militarily.

 

If it had been by popular vote, then maybe there'd still be a tricky peace now.

[justin sane 0]

Does anybody?

 

They do when the old sanctions start.

 

That's what I mean, or even just making the USA withdraw more support politically.

 

Mind you a war is a war (and that is how Israel views it, rightly or wrongly) and bad shit happens in every one.

And some people make lots of money out of wars.

[justin sane 0]

"Shouldn't have voted for Hamas then should they"

 

we fight TWO wars in the Middle east to introduce DEMOCRACY but when they vote for the folk we don't like................

 

 

WW2?

 

 

Rob is right what we do these days is more or less put a dictatorship in place or bomb the fuck out of anyone who won't do everything we want.

That sounds about right but i'd chance the "we" to they.

[Fop 1]

You can see how unashamedly political this issue is (the people dying at best irreverent or even at worst wanted to die):

 

 

 

 

Clerics urge new jihad over Gaza

 

Turkey witnesses some of the most passionate demonstrations in support of Gaza

 

At a weekend meeting in Istanbul, 200 religious scholars and clerics met senior Hamas officials to plot a new jihad centred on Gaza.

 

The BBC's Bill Law was the only Western journalist at the meeting.

 

In a hall crowded with conservative Sunni Muslim sheikhs and scholars, in a hotel close to Istanbul's Ataturk Airport speaker after speaker called for jihad against Israel in support of Hamas.

 

The choice of Turkey was significant. Arab hardliners were keen to put aside historic differences with the Turks.

 

As one organiser put it: "During the past 100 years relations have been strained but Palestine has brought us together."

 

Many delegates spoke appreciatively of the protest by Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, who stormed out of a Davos debate on Gaza two weeks ago.

 

Gaza gives us power, it solves our differences... Palestine is a legitimate theatre of operations for jihad

Mohsen al-Awajy, Saudi religious scholar

 

The conference, dubbed the Global Anti-Aggression Campaign, also gave impetus to Sunni clerics concerned about the growing power of Hezbollah, the Shia movement backed by Iran, which rose to international prominence in its own war with Israel in 2006.

 

"Gaza is a gift," the Saudi religious scholar Mohsen al-Awajy told me. He and other delegates repeatedly referred to the Gaza war as "a victory".

 

"Gaza," he continued, "gives us power, it solves our differences. We are all now in a unified front against Zionism."

 

In closed meetings after sessions delegates focussed on the creation of a "third Jihadist front" - the first two being Afghanistan and Iraq. The intensity of the Israeli attack had "awakened all Muslims," Mr Awajy claimed.

 

"Palestine is a legitimate theatre of operations for jihad (holy war)," he added.

 

Road to liberation

 

Mohammed Nazzal, a senior Hamas leader based in Damascus, challenged Arab governments to "open their borders and allow the fighters to come."

 

Delegates from all over the Middle East, and from Somalia, Sudan, Pakistan and Indonesia applauded as he stabbed the air with a raised finger and declared: "There will be no agreement with Israel... only weapons will bring respect."

Gaza has opened a gulf between Arab people and their regimes, clerics say

 

Mr Nazzal told his audience: "Don't worry about casualties."

 

The 23 days of bombardment of Gaza, in which some 1,300 people, many of them civilians and nearly 300 of them children, are believed to have died, was "just the beginning" of the struggle, Mr Nazzal said.

 

To laughter in the audience, another speaker noted that twice as many babies were born as children were killed during the war.

 

Every death, I was told, was a martyrdom on the road to liberation.

 

For the hardline sheikhs, it was an opportunity to underline what they see as the growing gulf between Arab regimes who are hesitant to back Hamas and the people of the region who, they say, embrace Hamas as heroes fighting against overwhelming odds.

 

More importantly, this conference represented something of a coup for Hamas. They were promised weapons, money and fighters.

 

The question remains whether such rhetoric can or will be translated into action. Israel keeps a tight blockade on the Gaza Strip, where Hamas exercises de facto control, and Israel's other borders are also heavily guarded.

 

But at the very least this statement of intent from Sunni hardliners poses new challenges, not just to the Israelis and to Western efforts to broker a peace deal but to Arab regimes as well.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7895485.stm

 

 

 

"Gaza is a gift" - not exactly how I'd describe it, but to Islamofascist agendas they are right.

[Rob W 0]

I see that well known Liberal MR Netanyahu looks like being the next Israeli POM - there goes any hope of peace

[ewerk 31193]

I see that well known Liberal MR Netanyahu looks like being the next Israeli POM - there goes any hope of peace

 

You’re always going on about Binyamin Netanyahu. Let it go, Rob, you’re never going to meet him.

[manc-mag 1]

I see that well known Liberal MR Netanyahu looks like being the next Israeli POM - there goes any hope of peace

 

You're always going on about Binyamin Netanyahu. Let it go, Rob, you're never going to meet him.

 

Yehudi Menuen. Genius.

[Tooj 17]

I see that well known Liberal MR Netanyahu looks like being the next Israeli POM - there goes any hope of peace

 

You’re always going on about Binyamin Netanyahu. Let it go, Rob, you’re never going to meet him.

[Rob W 0]

Take it from me that's one bastard I have no wish to meet...................

 

President Dinner Jacket on the other hand..............

Edited February 24, 2009 by Rob W

[Park Life 71]

Take it from me that's one bastard I have no wish to meet...................

 

President Dinner Jacket on the other hand..............

 

Thing is Iran will get some nukes and there isn't really a lot the U.S. can do about it short of invading/letting Israel do it. People forget Iran is a massive

country and the nuclear programme is spread far and wide.

[Fop 1]

Take it from me that's one bastard I have no wish to meet...................

 

President Dinner Jacket on the other hand..............

 

Thing is Iran will get some nukes and there isn't really a lot the U.S. can do about it short of invading/letting Israel do it. People forget Iran is a massive

country and the nuclear programme is spread far and wide.

 

But very hard to hide. (ooo poetic)

[Park Life 71]

Take it from me that's one bastard I have no wish to meet...................

 

President Dinner Jacket on the other hand..............

 

Thing is Iran will get some nukes and there isn't really a lot the U.S. can do about it short of invading/letting Israel do it. People forget Iran is a massive

country and the nuclear programme is spread far and wide.

 

But very hard to hide. (ooo poetic)

 

America has satellites that can detect some of the exotic chemicals given off and what those tell tale signs mean, but if you know what you are doing you can hide these signatures.

[Guest Stevie]

Take it from me that's one bastard I have no wish to meet...................

 

President Dinner Jacket on the other hand..............

 

Thing is Iran will get some nukes and there isn't really a lot the U.S. can do about it short of invading/letting Israel do it. People forget Iran is a massive

country and the nuclear programme is spread far and wide.

If Iran gets a ballistic missile with a range of over 2,500 mile....we're fucked as we'll be seen as an ally of Israel. They would use it as well, they are inherently barbaric people the hard line muslims running Iran, they want the world ran in the dark ages, we and the west in general are the "great satan". Fucking Israel.

[Fop 1]

Take it from me that's one bastard I have no wish to meet...................

 

President Dinner Jacket on the other hand..............

 

Thing is Iran will get some nukes and there isn't really a lot the U.S. can do about it short of invading/letting Israel do it. People forget Iran is a massive

country and the nuclear programme is spread far and wide.

 

But very hard to hide. (ooo poetic)

 

America has satellites that can detect some of the exotic chemicals given off and what those tell tale signs mean, but if you know what you are doing you can hide these signatures.

 

Aye maybe, but it's the sheer construction activity that's hardest to hide though.

[Park Life 71]

Take it from me that's one bastard I have no wish to meet...................

 

President Dinner Jacket on the other hand..............

 

Thing is Iran will get some nukes and there isn't really a lot the U.S. can do about it short of invading/letting Israel do it. People forget Iran is a massive

country and the nuclear programme is spread far and wide.

If Iran gets a ballistic missile with a range of over 2,500 mile....we're fucked as we'll be seen as an ally of Israel. They would use it as well, they are inherently barbaric people the hard line muslims running Iran, they want the world ran in the dark ages, we and the west in general are the "great satan". Fucking Israel.

 

Karma's a bitch innit.

[Guest Stevie]

Take it from me that's one bastard I have no wish to meet...................

 

President Dinner Jacket on the other hand..............

 

Thing is Iran will get some nukes and there isn't really a lot the U.S. can do about it short of invading/letting Israel do it. People forget Iran is a massive

country and the nuclear programme is spread far and wide.

If Iran gets a ballistic missile with a range of over 2,500 mile....we're fucked as we'll be seen as an ally of Israel. They would use it as well, they are inherently barbaric people the hard line muslims running Iran, they want the world ran in the dark ages, we and the west in general are the "great satan". Fucking Israel.

 

Karma's a bitch innit.

Karma?!?!?! We're due 20 World Cups in a row for the good we've done the world.

[Park Life 71]

Take it from me that's one bastard I have no wish to meet...................

 

President Dinner Jacket on the other hand..............

 

Thing is Iran will get some nukes and there isn't really a lot the U.S. can do about it short of invading/letting Israel do it. People forget Iran is a massive

country and the nuclear programme is spread far and wide.

If Iran gets a ballistic missile with a range of over 2,500 mile....we're fucked as we'll be seen as an ally of Israel. They would use it as well, they are inherently barbaric people the hard line muslims running Iran, they want the world ran in the dark ages, we and the west in general are the "great satan". Fucking Israel.

 

Karma's a bitch innit.

Karma?!?!?! We're due 20 World Cups in a row for the good we've done the world.

 

Exactly.

[Rob W 0]

"they are inherently barbaric people "

 

hmmm- they were civilised when we were only aspiring to live in caves IIRC - they developed writing and astronomy, farming and tliving in cities

 

we invented Morris Dancing - truly a WMD

[Park Life 71]

"they are inherently barbaric people "

 

hmmm- they were civilised when we were only aspiring to live in caves IIRC - they developed writing and astronomy, farming and tliving in cities

 

we invented Morris Dancing - truly a WMD

 

[Happy Face 29]

Take it from me that's one bastard I have no wish to meet...................

 

President Dinner Jacket on the other hand.............. :icon_lol:

 

Thing is Iran will get some nukes and there isn't really a lot the U.S. can do about it short of invading/letting Israel do it. People forget Iran is a massive

country and the nuclear programme is spread far and wide.

If Iran gets a ballistic missile with a range of over 2,500 mile....we're fucked as we'll be seen as an we are a staunch ally of Israel. They would use it as well, theywho are inherently barbaric people. The hard line muslims running Iran, they want the world ran in the dark ages with everyone judged by the same rules. We and the west in general are the "great satan". Fucking Israel.

 

FYP

[Happy Face 29]

US President Barack Obama and German Chancellor Angela Merkel have vowed to "redouble" efforts to achieve peace in the Middle East, at talks in Dresden.

 

One day after making a keynote speech in Cairo, Mr Obama said his government would seek a resumption of peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians.

 

"The moment is now, to act on what both sides know to be truth," he said.

 

Mr Obama also plans to visit the Nazi concentration camp in Buchenwald and then visit a US Army hospital.

 

There he will meet troops injured on active duty in Afghanistan and Iraq.

 

Mr Obama flew to Germany from Egypt, where he said the "cycle of suspicion and discord" between the United States and the Muslim world must end.

 

'Extraordinary activity'

 

During private talks, the two leaders discussed a broad range of major international challenges, they said at a news conference in Dresden.

 

OBAMA'S TOUR

3 June: Saudi Arabia - talks with King Abdullah on Israel-Palestinian peace negotiations

4 June: Egypt - talks with President Hosni Mubarak, keynote speech at Cairo university

5 June: Germany - meets Chancellor Angela Merkel, visits to Dresden and to Buchenwald concentration camp

6 June: France - meets President Nicolas Sarkozy, attends D-Day events in Normandy

 

Among the key themes discussed were the Middle East, the issue of Iran's nuclear ambitions, the ongoing global economic downturn and climate change, Mrs Merkel said.

 

The German chancellor said she and Mr Obama had discussed a timeframe for diplomatic action in the Middle East and pledged to offer whatever help Germany could provide.

 

Mr Obama remained vague about the exact steps his administration would take, but said he would send his special envoy George Mitchell back to the region to meet leaders and discuss the issues raised by his Cairo speech.

 

In Cairo the US president called for an end to Israeli settlement construction, something the right-wing government of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has yet to agree.

 

"What is different now is that you're seeing an American president engage that issue [the Middle East] almost on the very first day I took office," Mr Obama said.

 

He said there had already been "extraordinary activity" on the issue which would send a sign to region that the US means business, the president said.

 

Guantanamo issue

 

Other elements of the visit to Germany are more nuanced.

 

Mr Obama needs to convince an increasingly sceptical American public that the war in Afghanistan is worth fighting, the BBC's Steve Rosenberg in Berlin says.

 

So he will use his trip to Germany - and then the D-Day commemorations in France - to send a strong message back home that the fight against tyranny demands sacrifice, our correspondent says.

 

He says the US president has also for months been encouraging European government to shoulder more of the burden in Afghanistan and to send more combat troops to take on the Taleban.

 

Washington also would like to see European countries take in dozens of detainees from Guantanamo Bay, but so far there has been little enthusiasm across Europe, our correspondent adds.

 

Ovation in Cairo

 

In a keynote speech in Cairo on Thursday, Mr Obama called for a "new beginning" in US relations with the Muslim world.

 

"No system of government can or should be imposed upon one nation by any other"

-Barack Obama

 

He admitted there had been "years of distrust" and said both sides needed to make a "sustained effort... to respect one another and seek common ground".

 

Mr Obama said the US bond with Israel was unbreakable but described the Palestinians' plight as "intolerable".

 

The president made a number of references to the Koran and called on all faiths to live together in peace.

 

He received a standing ovation at the end of his speech at Cairo University.

 

White House officials had said the speech was intended to start a process to "re-energise the dialogue with the Muslim world".

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/8084352.stm

 

Is he saying the democratically elected leadership in Afghanistan is a tyranny?

[Happy Face 29]

A UN team investigating possible war crimes in Gaza says it will hold public hearings with victims of the conflict in Gaza and Geneva later this month.

 

The team has spent the week interviewing witnesses and visiting sites damaged in Israel's three-week offensive, which ended on 18 January.

 

Richard Goldstone, who is heading the team, said it had hoped to hold hearings in Israel and the West Bank.

 

But Israel has refused to co-operate in the inquiry, accusing it of bias. suprise suprise

 

Israel charges the UN Human Rights Council - which has a record of criticising Israel over its treatment of the Palestinians - with singling it out unfairly.

 

Mr Goldstone said his 15-member team had visited 40 sites in Gaza and spoken to some 70 witnesses and relatives of victims. It had hoped to visit southern Israeli towns hit by Palestinian rocket fire, but was not allowed access.

 

Mr Goldstone said he hoped Israel's refusal to co-operate would not weaken the report, due for publication in September.

 

"If we haven't dealt with facts that Israel would like us to deal with, I think we can hardly be blamed for that," he added, according to news agency AP.

 

Previous inquiries

 

Several investigations into alleged violations of international law during Israel's 22-day operation in Gaza, which ended on 18 January, have now reported back.

 

UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon has requested more than $11m (£7m) compensation from Israel for damage to UN property in Gaza, after a limited UN inquiry accused Israel of targeting known civilian shelters and providing untrue statements to justify actions in which civilians were killed.

 

The report found Israel to blame in six out of nine incidents when death or injury were caused to people sheltering at UN property and UN buildings were damaged.

 

The Israeli military has concluded in an internal investigation that its troops fought lawfully, although errors did take place, such as the deaths of 21 people in a wrongly targeted house.

 

A fact-finding team commissioned by the Arab League said there was sufficient evidence for the Israeli military to be prosecuted for war crimes and crimes against humanity, and that "the Israeli political leadership was also responsible for such crimes".

 

It also said Palestinian militants were guilty of war crimes in their use of indiscriminate attacks on civilians.

 

Palestinian rights groups say more than 1,400 Palestinians were killed during the January conflict. Israel puts the figure at 1,166.

 

Israeli and Palestinian estimates also differ on the numbers of civilian casualties.

 

Ten Israeli soldiers were killed, including four by friendly fire, and three Israel civilians died in rocket attacks by Palestinian militants.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/8084734.stm

[Park Life 71]

Any other country and the war crimes thing would have already started.