Israel continues its merciless pounding of the defenceless.

[Ketsbaia 0]

Never question Assud.

[Billy Castell 0]

 

If someone can find a clip of 'Jon Stewart's story hole' that can be put up here, it would be amusing.

[Happy Face 29]

Don't forget the translation on that clip was done by MEMRI. Co-founded in 1998 by Yigal Carmon, a former colonel in Israeli military intelligence, and another Israeli Meyrav Wurmser.

 

There is some controversy surrounding it...

 

The overall effect of this is to change a conversation about resistance and sacrifice into a picture of unprovoked and seemingly motiveless aggression on the part of the Palestinians. But why hype the content in this way? Hamas's use of children's TV for propaganda purposes is clearly despicable, as the BBC, the Guardian and others have noted, without any need to exaggerate its content.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/20...arabicunderfire

[Park Life 71]

Having a Jewish mother means Dan has a right of return to Israel iirc.

[Park Life 71]

BBC News 24 should really have a reporter broadcasting live from the Rachel Corrie 24/7 at the moment so we can all see where the provocation begins and the reaction becomes excessive.

 

The BBC are scum sucking pack of weasel cowards and shitheels when it comes to Israel.

[Park Life 71]

Dan, were you brought up near Saltwell Park without a foreskin by any chance?

 

my mum is jewish, my dad is catholic. my foreskin remained intact

 

i do have family that live in israel which is why i can see both sides of the story. my family had to flee their home in haifa a few years back when the hizbollah were firing rockets into their town from lebanon. i have family that live in bersheva in the south of israel that live in constant fear that they will be the next victim of a rocket fired over the border from gaza by hamas militants.

 

i think i am sympathetic to both sides. i am contantly getting into arguments with my mother because i'm critical of many of the things israel has done. that much is obvious from what i have posted i think. i have a lot of sympathy for the palestinian people and agree that some of the actions taken since the likud got into power last have been shocking. israel has not done itself any favours in recent years. that's not to say mistakes of the past mean that everything they do is wrong though. i do think the media response to the flotilla has been massively overblown, especially when you look at the evidence.

 

there is clearly a lot of anti-israeli sentiment on this board and there are still a lot of anti-semites in the world, that is obvious. israel is a sovereign state and i believe therefore has the right to exist and defend its borders, regardless of what hamas would like you to believe.

 

most people i know in israel are liberals, want an end to the conflict and favour a two state solution. i'm sure most people in gaza and the west bank feel the same. it is a shame that it is extremists on both sides - the islamic fundamentalists on one side and the right wing orthadox jews in their settlements on the other - that seem determined to stop that happening.

 

it's also worth noting that around 20 per cent of israel's population are arabs that live in peace alongside the jews in a western-style democracy. i think it's a real shame there aren't more modern progressive states like israel in the middle east.

 

Historically solutions only come when the superior power wants it.

[Dr Gloom 21868]

Having a Jewish mother means Dan has a right of return to Israel iirc.

 

technically, i'm 100 per cent part of the tribe. according to jewish law, it all goes through the mother.

 

that said, i have only ever attended a synagogue as a tourist. i was brought up an atheist.

[Park Life 71]

Having a Jewish mother means Dan has a right of return to Israel iirc.

 

technically, i'm 100 per cent part of the tribe. according to jewish law, it all goes through the mother.

 

that said, i have only ever attended a synagogue as a tourist. i was brought up an atheist.

 

You say that mate, but the Jews believe it's all in the blood, hence your right of return. Next thing you know you're growing a beard, playing chess -watching 'The Shoa' on repeat and gathering around one candle in the evening with your extended family figuring out ways of scaming money from the Germans.

[Dr Gloom 21868]

Having a Jewish mother means Dan has a right of return to Israel iirc.

 

technically, i'm 100 per cent part of the tribe. according to jewish law, it all goes through the mother.

 

that said, i have only ever attended a synagogue as a tourist. i was brought up an atheist.

 

You say that mate, but the Jews believe it's all in the blood, hence your right of return. Next thing you know you're growing a beard, playing chess -watching 'The Shoa' on repeat and gathering around one candle in the evening with your extended family figuring out ways of scaming money from the Germans.

 

holocaust denier

[Guest alex]

Dan, were you brought up near Saltwell Park without a foreskin by any chance?

 

my mum is jewish, my dad is catholic. my foreskin remained intact

 

i do have family that live in israel which is why i can see both sides of the story. my family had to flee their home in haifa a few years back when the hizbollah were firing rockets into their town from lebanon. i have family that live in bersheva in the south of israel that live in constant fear that they will be the next victim of a rocket fired over the border from gaza by hamas militants.

 

i think i am sympathetic to both sides. i am contantly getting into arguments with my mother because i'm critical of many of the things israel has done. that much is obvious from what i have posted i think. i have a lot of sympathy for the palestinian people and agree that some of the actions taken since the likud got into power last have been shocking. israel has not done itself any favours in recent years. that's not to say mistakes of the past mean that everything they do is wrong though. i do think the media response to the flotilla has been massively overblown, especially when you look at the evidence.

 

there is clearly a lot of anti-israeli sentiment on this board and there are still a lot of anti-semites in the world, that is obvious. israel is a sovereign state and i believe therefore has the right to exist and defend its borders, regardless of what hamas would like you to believe.

 

most people i know in israel are liberals, want an end to the conflict and favour a two state solution. i'm sure most people in gaza and the west bank feel the same. it is a shame that it is extremists on both sides - the islamic fundamentalists on one side and the right wing orthadox jews in their settlements on the other - that seem determined to stop that happening.

 

it's also worth noting that around 20 per cent of israel's population are arabs that live in peace alongside the jews in a western-style democracy. i think it's a real shame there aren't more modern progressive states like israel in the middle east.

Thanks for the answer. Not sure the question deserved it but I just had an inkling because you came across less 'liberal' than normal, if you know what I mean. Anyway, I can totally appreciate your point of view (I hope that doesn't sound patronising - it's not meant to be).

[Park Life 71]

Having a Jewish mother means Dan has a right of return to Israel iirc.

 

technically, i'm 100 per cent part of the tribe. according to jewish law, it all goes through the mother.

 

that said, i have only ever attended a synagogue as a tourist. i was brought up an atheist.

 

You say that mate, but the Jews believe it's all in the blood, hence your right of return. Next thing you know you're growing a beard, playing chess -watching 'The Shoa' on repeat and gathering around one candle in the evening with your extended family figuring out ways of scaming money from the Germans.

 

holocaust denier

 

[Billy Castell 0]

Is it the case that the only legally recognised form of marriage in Israel is an Orthodox Jewish one? That doesn't sound very tolerant to me if true. And I believe the political structure is a unicameral chamber using the National List system of voting, which would give too much power to minority parties. In the case of Israel, that is the right wing Ultra-Orthodox extremist loons with the big hats who want the whole West Bank to be one big settlement.

[Dr Gloom 21868]

Is it the case that the only legally recognised form of marriage in Israel is an Orthodox Jewish one? That doesn't sound very tolerant to me if true. And I believe the political structure is a unicameral chamber using the National List system of voting, which would give too much power to minority parties. In the case of Israel, that is the right wing Ultra-Orthodox extremist loons with the big hats who want the whole West Bank to be one big settlement.

 

that is true as far as jewish people in israel are concernd - my cousin had to travel to cyprus for her civil ceremony because she isn't religious. i'm not sure if the same applies to arabs that live there.

 

even if it does, the country is a real democracy and so much more civilised - if you ask me - than the islamic dictatorships that surround it. lots of arabs live in israel because they can have a better quality of life - it is a western democracy and there are lots of job opportunities - that's despite the risks involved in living there.

[NJS 4375]

Do you think it could survive on its own without US help DG?

 

(I mean economically not militarily).

[Billy Castell 0]

Is it the case that the only legally recognised form of marriage in Israel is an Orthodox Jewish one? That doesn't sound very tolerant to me if true. And I believe the political structure is a unicameral chamber using the National List system of voting, which would give too much power to minority parties. In the case of Israel, that is the right wing Ultra-Orthodox extremist loons with the big hats who want the whole West Bank to be one big settlement.

 

that is true as far as jewish people in israel are concernd - my cousin had to travel to cyprus for her civil ceremony because she isn't religious. i'm not sure if the same applies to arabs that live there.

 

even if it does, the country is a real democracy and so much more civilised - if you ask me - than the islamic dictatorships that surround it. lots of arabs live in israel because they can have a better quality of life - it is a western democracy and there are lots of job opportunities - that's despite the risks involved in living there.

 

Of course, the fact that there is a democratic system is better than just about all the Arab countries, its just a shame the right wing loons have too much power. As I've never been there, I have the image that they are second class citizens due to their ethnicity, and are viewed with suspicion in the same way the Irish were when the IRA were at their worst. It may not be the case at all, I have never been to Israel.

 

Since you are part Jewish, I'll ask another question. What's with the big curly sideburns the Orthodox Jews have? And that particular style of hat?

[Happy Face 29]

Of course, the fact that there is a democratic system is better than just about all the Arab countries.

 

I know it's not what you intended but this could be construed as suggesting few of the Arab countries have any democratic system at all. There are only four governments in the world that don't claim to be democratic. Vatican City, Saudi Arabia, Myanmar and Brunei.

 

Some other countries have single candidate sham elections, like Israel's buddy Egypt. But lots of Middle Eastern countries have multiple candidate elections.

 

I'd agree that Israel probably has the most transparent elections in the region, but even so, according to the 2008 Democracy Index, it's a "flawed democracy".

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

[Dr Gloom 21868]

Do you think it could survive on its own without US help DG?

 

(I mean economically not militarily).

 

economically, yes. it has big, engineering, biotech and high tech industries. i don't think israel even went into recession during the global financial crisis.

 

israel has loan guarantees with the amaericza of course but hasn't been forced to use it.

 

military support from the us is vital not just for israel but the whole middle east region. if america were to ever withdraw its support for israel there would almost certainly be a very destructive war in the middle east.

[Dr Gloom 21868]

Of course, the fact that there is a democratic system is better than just about all the Arab countries.

 

I know it's not what you intended but this could be construed as suggesting few of the Arab countries have any democratic system at all. There are only four governments in the world that don't claim to be democratic. Vatican City, Saudi Arabia, Myanmar and Brunei.

 

Some other countries have single candidate sham elections, like Israel's buddy Egypt. But lots of Middle Eastern countries have multiple candidate elections.

 

I'd agree that Israel probably has the most transparent elections in the region, but even so, according to the 2008 Democracy Index, it's a "flawed democracy".

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

 

 

yeah, but look at place like iran and syria. none of us used to living in a western democracy could ever live in those countries. on the other hand, if you take away the threat of bombings in israel, i'd wager many of us could live a happy life there. tel aviv is similar to any european city in the med

Edited June 4, 2010 by Dr Gloom

[Dr Gloom 21868]

Is it the case that the only legally recognised form of marriage in Israel is an Orthodox Jewish one? That doesn't sound very tolerant to me if true. And I believe the political structure is a unicameral chamber using the National List system of voting, which would give too much power to minority parties. In the case of Israel, that is the right wing Ultra-Orthodox extremist loons with the big hats who want the whole West Bank to be one big settlement.

 

that is true as far as jewish people in israel are concernd - my cousin had to travel to cyprus for her civil ceremony because she isn't religious. i'm not sure if the same applies to arabs that live there.

 

even if it does, the country is a real democracy and so much more civilised - if you ask me - than the islamic dictatorships that surround it. lots of arabs live in israel because they can have a better quality of life - it is a western democracy and there are lots of job opportunities - that's despite the risks involved in living there.

 

Of course, the fact that there is a democratic system is better than just about all the Arab countries, its just a shame the right wing loons have too much power. As I've never been there, I have the image that they are second class citizens due to their ethnicity, and are viewed with suspicion in the same way the Irish were when the IRA were at their worst. It may not be the case at all, I have never been to Israel.

 

Since you are part Jewish, I'll ask another question. What's with the big curly sideburns the Orthodox Jews have? And that particular style of hat?

 

in my experience jews and arabs live in peace in harmony. that's not to say there isn't prejudice and racism there. what i would say though is that my israeli cousins have arab friends. when i have been there i have been out for drinks with israeli arabs, eaten at arab restuarants etc.

 

the sidburn thing, i have no idea where that comes from. i can't understand either why the hasidics want to make sure they look as ugly as possible too. and can you imagine wearing those overcoats and hats in the israeli climate? as you can imagine, they don't smell good either. but honestly, they feel like a minority in israel. normal looking people make up the mjaority but it's these right wingers that seem to have a lot of influence, sadly.

[Park Life 71]

A Society in Crisis

 

“Israeli society is reaching new heights of racism,” said Sami Michael, one of the country’s most celebrated equality advocates and president of the Association for Civil Rights in Israel (ACRI).26 A growing body of research indicates that racist sentiments are not the preserve of the right-wing fringe but increasingly prevalent across Israeli Jewish society.

 

One particularly disturbing indicator is that the chant “Death to the Arabs” is voiced not just by mobs of right-wingers angered by this or that Palestinian attack. Rather, “in the late 1990s and onwards,” writes Amir Ben-Porat, a professor in the Department of Behavioral Sciences at Ben Gurion University, “‘Death to the Arabs’ became a common chant in almost every football [soccer] stadium in Israel.” Ben-Porat, who authored a study on the use of the chant, says that because of the importance of soccer in Israeli society and its high profile in the media, “This chant is heard far beyond the stadium.”27

 

In its 2007 Israeli Democracy Index, the Israel Democracy Institute found that 87 percent of all Israeli citizens rated Jewish-Arab relations in the country as being “poor” or “very poor.”28

 

 

 

In addition:

 

• 78 percent of Israeli Jews opposed having Arab parties or ministers join Israel’s government.29

 

• Just 56 percent of Israeli Jews support full equality for Palestinian citizens of Israel and an identical number agreed that “Arabs cannot attain the Jews’ level of cultural development.”30

 

• 75 percent of Israeli Jews agreed with the statement that “Arabs are inclined to violent behavior” (as compared with 54 percent of Palestinian citizens of Israel who had an equivalent view of Israeli Jews).31

 

• 43 percent of Israeli Jews agreed that “Arabs are not intelligent” and 55 percent agreed that “the government should encourage Arab emigration from the country.”32

 

A recent Haifa University survey found that half of Israeli Jews object to Arabs living in their neighborhoods (56 percent of Arabs supported residential integration with Jews).33 Similarly, ACRI reported that 75 percent of Israeli Jews surveyed said they would not agree to live in the same building as Arabs. The same survey found that more than half of Israeli Jews felt that Arabs and Jews should have separate recreational facilities.34

 

 

There are two consistent trends among all these surveys: both Palestinian citizens of Israel and Israeli Jews hold some prejudices towards each other, but on almost every measure, Israeli Jewish views of Arabs are more negative and extreme than Arab views of Jews; second, the negative trends have risen markedly in recent years as the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has intensified. Between 2005 and 2006, there was a 26 percent rise in racist incidents targeting Arabs, and the number of Israeli Jews reporting they felt “hatred” towards Arabs doubled to 30 percent.35

While the conflict is undoubtedly the overarching context for these sentiments, an important contributing factor may be the consistently dehumanizing and denigrating stereotypes of Arabs that have for decades been presented to Israeli Jewish schoolchildren in their textbooks and media.36"

 

 

Not really how you're painting it is it Dan?

 

You come across as very balanced and have taken this thread in a good spirit, but unfortunately racism and discrimination of Arabs living in Israel is rife.

Edited June 4, 2010 by Park Life

[Park Life 71]

"Despite having a rapidly growing population, the government strictly defines Tamra's city limits and expansion outside of those limits is forbidden. Any buildings erected outside the delineated area will invariably be demolished or repossessed by the state. As a result, Tamra has a terribly high population density, with homes pressing upon each other. Moreover, the Israeli state does not provide the city with anywhere close to sufficient funding to provide such a dense population with a modern standard of living. Nathan describes haphazard electric and telephone lines and a poorly maintained and confusing network of roads, which are lined with uncollected garbage. Since Tamra's people are forbidden to expand outwards, they are forced to continually increase their density and expand upwards in crowded tenements. Despite the warmth and friendliness she received from the population, Nathan admitted that the town sometimes felt like "ghetto living," and described a "sense of suffocation."

 

The warmth with which Nathan was greeted in Tamra contrasts sharply with the hostility that Arabs often encounter in Jewish areas. According to Nathan's Arab friends, to visit a city like Tel Aviv is to be a target, identifiable by language and appearance. They feel a profound sense of being unwelcome, and fear encountering overt hostility, or even violence. The Arabs Nathan spoke to cited polls that have been published which indicate that a majority of Israeli Jews want all Arabs expelled from the country. They also mentioned hearing of attacks on Arabs by Israeli youths and racist police officers.

 

The housing crisis and "ghettoization" of Tamra is a familiar facet of life for Arabs in Israel. Across the country, Arabs are refused building permits, so as to strictly define the land area of Arab communities, and preserve land for Jewish farms and settlements. As such, thousands of families build their homes without official permits. Judged to be "illegal" by the government, these homes are subject to demolition. Many families recall police with bulldozers rolling into town at the crack of dawn and tearing down houses, rendering them homeless in an instant. Often these "illegal" homes rest on land that has been inhabited for many generations by the Arab families."

Edited June 4, 2010 by Park Life

[Happy Face 29]

Of course, the fact that there is a democratic system is better than just about all the Arab countries.

 

I know it's not what you intended but this could be construed as suggesting few of the Arab countries have any democratic system at all. There are only four governments in the world that don't claim to be democratic. Vatican City, Saudi Arabia, Myanmar and Brunei.

 

Some other countries have single candidate sham elections, like Israel's buddy Egypt. But lots of Middle Eastern countries have multiple candidate elections.

 

I'd agree that Israel probably has the most transparent elections in the region, but even so, according to the 2008 Democracy Index, it's a "flawed democracy".

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

 

 

yeah, but look at place like iran and syria. none of us used to living in a western democracy could ever live in those countries. on the other hand, if you take away the threat of bombings in israel, i'd wager many of us could live a happy life there. tel aviv is similar to any european city in the med

 

I think that's a different question, whether or not we as western democrats could integrate into a society has little to do with their election process.. I know people that do live and work under an authritarian regime in Saudi Arabia.

 

Qatar explicitly uses Sharia law as the basis of its government, but the quality of life is deemed to be about the same as Israel.

[Park Life 71]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8165338.stm

 

 

Q&A: Israeli Arabs

 

About 20% of Israel's population are of Palestinian Arab descent. Israeli Arabs often complain they are second-class citizens, while some Jewish Israelis fear they form a "fifth column".

 

Israeli Arabs protests against Israeli operation in Gaza

Israeli-Arab protests against Israeli military action worry some

 

Who are the Israeli Arabs?

 

About a fifth of Israel's population - roughly 1.45m people - are of Palestinian Arab descent.

 

During the war that surrounded the creation of the state of Israel in 1948, hundreds of thousands of Arabs were forced from or fled their homes. Those who remained within what became Israel, and their descendents, have been granted citizenship and are known as Israeli Arabs.

 

In addition there are about 250,000 Arab residents of occupied East Jerusalem. The majority have refused citizenship, so are not described as Israeli Arabs, but still have Israeli residency.

 

About 80% of Israeli Arabs are Muslim, the rest are divided, roughly equally, between Christians and Druze.

 

The majority of Israeli Arabs identify closely with Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza and often describe themselves as "Palestinian citizens of Israel" and "1948 Palestinians".

 

What is their status in Israel?

 

Israel defines itself as both Jewish and democratic, but some argue it is impossible for it to be both without discriminating against non-Jews.

 

The Israeli government says Israeli Arabs are citizens with equal rights - although their "civic duty" differs as they are exempt from compulsory military service.

 

It points out that Israel's Declaration of Independence promises equality for all.

 

But one Israeli-Arab MP has described Israel as "democratic for Jews and Jewish for Arabs" and Israeli Arabs frequently describe themselves as "second class citizens".

 

The Orr Commission, a government inquiry, concluded in 2003 that "government handling of the Arab sector has been primarily neglectful and discriminatory".

 

And the US state department says Israeli Arabs face "institutional, legal, and societal discrimination".

Where do they live?

 

The largest concentration of Israeli Arabs is in the north of Israel, in towns such as Nazareth, Um al-Fahm and Sakhnin. Many also live in mixed cities such as Haifa, Jaffa and Acre.

 

The Israeli state appropriated what the Orr commission described as "vast expanses" of land owned by Arabs who fled or were forced out in the wake of 1948.

 

This and subsequent policies resulted in a "drastic decrease" in the land available to Israeli Arabs, the commission said.

 

Although determining accurate figures is difficult, advocacy groups say Israeli Arabs now live on about 3% of the land in Israel, despite making up about 20% of the population.

 

Since 1948, no new Arab towns - apart from Bedouin townships - have been founded, although the Israeli-Arab population has grown at least sevenfold.

Many Arab communities were surrounded by areas used for security purposes, Jewish regional councils, national parks and highways, that prevent or block future expansion, the commission said.

 

According to advocacy groups, some 160,000 Bedouin Arabs live in the Negev in southern Israeli, about half of them in "unrecognised settlements" which are cut off from basic services.

 

Most of the rest live in impoverished towns established by the state.

 

What are Israeli Arabs' living conditions like?

 

More than half of Israeli-Arab families are living in poverty, compared to about 15% of Jewish Israeli families, and the gap is widening.

For all but one of the past five years, Israeli-Arab communities have received less than 5% of government development funding each year, according to the Mossawa advocacy centre.

 

Municipal services in many Israeli-Arab communities are inferior to those in Jewish areas, with classrooms shortages, ageing roads and a lack of local employment opportunities.

 

Some Israelis blame lower levels of municipal tax collection in Israeli-Arab areas for the gap.

 

The Mossawa Centre says some Israeli Arabs are unwilling to pay taxes for poor local services, but adds that Israeli-Arab areas tend to have fewer of the factories, businesses and government offices that feed municipal coffers in other areas.

 

The US state department says Israeli Arabs are "underrepresented in most fields of employment". For example, the Mossawa Centre says only 8% of employees in government offices are Israeli-Arab and of 70,000 employees in hi-tech companies only 300 are Arabs.

 

There is no state-funded Arabic language university.

 

Israeli Arabs also miss out on benefits, such as housing and educational subsidies, available to people who have completed national service.

 

The foreign ministry has said that this can outweigh the advantage gained from being able to start higher education earlier than those who serve in the military.

 

Are Jewish and Arab Israelis equal under the law?

 

The Israeli government says yes, Israeli-Arab advocacy groups say no.

 

The Mossawa Centre says at least 20 laws discriminate overtly or tacitly against them. It points out that Israeli Arabs are not classed as an official minority and says Arabic, though an official language, does not have the same status as Hebrew. Muslim and Christian festivals are not national holidays; Jewish ones are.

 

One particularly controversial law is the 2003 Citizenship Law, under which Palestinians from the West Bank or Gaza - women under 25 and men under 35 - who marry Israelis are not usually allowed to move to Israel.

 

Palestinians over those ages are granted only temporary residency, not citizenship. Israel says the law is necessary for security; Israeli Arabs say it discriminates as it affects them disproportionately.

 

Another hard-fought area is access to land.

 

About 93% of land in Israel is owned by state or semi-state bodies and is then leased to citizens.

 

Thirteen percent of the land is owned by the Jewish National Fund, which was founded specifically to buy land for a Jewish homeland. Its directors have a powerful role in the state body that controls the other 80% of the land. Israeli Arabs have long complained of difficulties in leasing this land.

 

Three legal cases since 2000 have, however, set precedents with rulings that neither the state nor local residents' committees can block the leasing of land on the basis of race.

 

But MPs have tried to use legislation to overturn the rulings, and advocacy groups say it is still, in practice, difficult for Israeli Arabs to lease much state-controlled land.

[Park Life 71]

'Rachel Corrie' may arrive by Saturday

 

Activists on board Gaza-bound Irish ship say they will not resist if IDF troops board vessel

 

Aviel Magnezi

Published: 06.03.10, 00:58 / Israel News

 

A pro-Palestinian activist on board the Irish vessel 'Rachel Corrie' told Ynet Wednesday that the ship is currently located between Libya and Cyprus, and that it is making its way to Gaza but will not arrive before Saturday morning.

 

The activist said those on board were coming "in peace", and that they would not resist IDF soldiers if they insisted coming on board. The claim was reminiscent of one made by the activists on board the flotilla that arrived Monday.

 

He added that before the ship had embarked it had been searched for weapons, and stressed that there were none on board.

 

The Irish vessel, named after a peace activist killed by an Israeli bulldozer, is reportedly carrying more than 20 people: More than ten Malaysians, five Irish, and eight crew members.

 

"We are not afraid, despite what happened on the Marmara," said Derrick Graham, who is on board with wife Jeanie. "The violence there was a product of fear, I saw the fear in the eyes of the soldiers. You need to send your veteran soldiers, not the young ones."

 

He stressed that the violent turn of events on board the Turkish ship Monday would not affect the Rachel Corrie. "We don't plan on resisting. In the event that your men are stupid enough to come and arrest us, we will sit down and not resist," he said. "It would not be wise for the government of Israel to direct its brutal violence towards us."

Graham added that the passengers on board the ship were saddened by the violence on board the Marmara. He said he had participated in a number of voyages to Gaza in the past, and that this was not the general rule.

 

"There were never such problems on sails to Gaza. We object to violence, which is why before we left we searched the ship to make sure there were no guns or weapons of any kind on board. The crew members were also checked by officials," he said.

 

The activist added that the IDF had called to ask him similar questions. When asked whether he knew that the passengers on board the Marmara had firearms, he expressed shock. "These are supposed to be violence-free, weapons-free ships," he said.

 

On board is also Mairead Maguire, a Nobel Peace Prize laureate well-known to Israeli authorities. She was injured at an anti-fence protest in Bil'in in 2008, and has taken part in previous Gaza sails. "I'm not afraid, I think it is important to give Gaza freedom and support it," she said.

[Dr Gloom 21868]

Of course, the fact that there is a democratic system is better than just about all the Arab countries.

 

I know it's not what you intended but this could be construed as suggesting few of the Arab countries have any democratic system at all. There are only four governments in the world that don't claim to be democratic. Vatican City, Saudi Arabia, Myanmar and Brunei.

 

Some other countries have single candidate sham elections, like Israel's buddy Egypt. But lots of Middle Eastern countries have multiple candidate elections.

 

I'd agree that Israel probably has the most transparent elections in the region, but even so, according to the 2008 Democracy Index, it's a "flawed democracy".

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

 

 

yeah, but look at place like iran and syria. none of us used to living in a western democracy could ever live in those countries. on the other hand, if you take away the threat of bombings in israel, i'd wager many of us could live a happy life there. tel aviv is similar to any european city in the med

 

I think that's a different question, whether or not we as western democrats could integrate into a society has little to do with their election process.. I know people that do live and work under an authritarian regime in Saudi Arabia.

 

Qatar explicitly uses Sharia law as the basis of its government, but the quality of life is deemed to be about the same as Israel.

 

not sure i'd fancy living in qatar if i was a woman