The whitewashing of Stalin

[Guest alex]

Soviet style stuff is cool. I've got a Soviet propaganda poster up on my wall. Fuck knows what it says like.

Communism is like an extension of teenage rebellion. Especially if you're middle class. Fascism doesn't seem to have the same wide appeal for some reason. Trotsky is cooler than Stalin though.

Aye, it absolutely is, the irony that's it's pretty much the same jackbooted fascism (with different PR) seems to be entirely lost on them.

 

The bigger irony is 99% of them will be working for "the man" a couple of years later and by then will see nothing wrong with it.

 

I blame Hitler personally.

 

You dont know what real communism is do you?

Can you give an example of a country in which 'real communism'* has existed for any sustained period of time though?

*This would probably need qualifying by you first anyway.

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3859]

Soviet style stuff is cool. I've got a Soviet propaganda poster up on my wall. Fuck knows what it says like.

Communism is like an extension of teenage rebellion. Especially if you're middle class. Fascism doesn't seem to have the same wide appeal for some reason. Trotsky is cooler than Stalin though.

Aye, it absolutely is, the irony that's it's pretty much the same jackbooted fascism (with different PR) seems to be entirely lost on them.

 

The bigger irony is 99% of them will be working for "the man" a couple of years later and by then will see nothing wrong with it.

 

I blame Hitler personally.

 

You dont know what real communism is do you?

Can you give an example of a country in which 'real communism'* has existed for any sustained period of time though?

*This would probably need qualifying by you first anyway.

 

No. Real communism has never been sustained at all. I am with Hobsbawm on this in his criticisms of Russia, China and to a certain extent Cuba. Cuba has been damned more by the American blockade than most but I still wouldn't call it communism. Communism is true egalitarianism where everyone gets an equal chance. Where everyone gets the same chances in schooling which would be of the highest standard because the best teachers would be there because they would get as much teaching as any other job. Where the party really does try and fit the best people to the best jobs without the cronyism and fear of past regimes. Unfortunately I dont think true communism could come about in the world today. This is becaquse other countries would try to bring any regime down which would breed paranoia and fear which would lead to a police state and therefore not communism.

[Guest alex]

I think Fop was talking about Communism in the real world. In much the same way pure capitalism doesn't exist I still don't think it's any more unreasonable to call the Soviet Union, China or Yugoslvia (as they were) 'Communist' than it is to call Britain or the USA 'Capitalist'. Also, Lenin tried to impose pure communism (or War Communism as I believe he called it) and it had to be canned because it was completely unworkable.

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3859]

I think Fop was talking about Communism in the real world. In much the same way pure capitalism doesn't exist I still don't think it's any more unreasonable to call the Soviet Union, China or Yugoslvia (as they were) 'Communist' than it is to call Britain or the USA 'Capitalist'. Also, Lenin tried to impose pure communism (or War Communism as I believe he called it) and it had to be canned because it was completely unworkable.

 

Pure capitalism wont work because it doesnt really exist. It is based on the Adam Smith notion of the invisble hand which is a complete pile of poo.

[Fop 1]

Soviet style stuff is cool. I've got a Soviet propaganda poster up on my wall. Fuck knows what it says like.

Communism is like an extension of teenage rebellion. Especially if you're middle class. Fascism doesn't seem to have the same wide appeal for some reason. Trotsky is cooler than Stalin though.

Aye, it absolutely is, the irony that's it's pretty much the same jackbooted fascism (with different PR) seems to be entirely lost on them.

 

The bigger irony is 99% of them will be working for "the man" a couple of years later and by then will see nothing wrong with it.

 

I blame Hitler personally.

 

You dont know what real communism is do you?

 

 

Actually I do.

 

But the fact of the matter is anything we've seen on this planet in the last century is simply fascism with different PR.

[Guest alex]

I think Fop was talking about Communism in the real world. In much the same way pure capitalism doesn't exist I still don't think it's any more unreasonable to call the Soviet Union, China or Yugoslvia (as they were) 'Communist' than it is to call Britain or the USA 'Capitalist'. Also, Lenin tried to impose pure communism (or War Communism as I believe he called it) and it had to be canned because it was completely unworkable.

 

Pure capitalism wont work because it doesnt really exist. It is based on the Adam Smith notion of the invisble hand which is a complete pile of poo.

Not something I know a lot about but it requires zero government intervention as I understand it (probably on a global scale).

[Fop 1]

I think Fop was talking about Communism in the real world. In much the same way pure capitalism doesn't exist I still don't think it's any more unreasonable to call the Soviet Union, China or Yugoslvia (as they were) 'Communist' than it is to call Britain or the USA 'Capitalist'. Also, Lenin tried to impose pure communism (or War Communism as I believe he called it) and it had to be canned because it was completely unworkable.

 

Aye, the closest anyone has come to real communism is friggen Star Trek.

[Park Life 71]

The people have to be led.

[NJS 4375]

Which sort of inadvertently backs up the assertion that religion wasn't really a major factor in most 20th Century wars and conflicts. Without checking I'd guess more more people killed on the first day of the Somme than in the whole of the Troubles.

 

Undoubtedly but WWI was caused by empires squaring up to each other - I see both nationalism and religion (though more in the past) as part of the whole tribal tendency of humanity and both equally as "wrong". I know you could argue its natural but my hope is that by this stage in our develonment the need to be defined so strongly in one "gang" or another would be lessened.

 

One notion about Islam I admire at a basic level is the notion of a brotherhood which transcends borders - unfortunately based on one religion rather than a "simple" notion of humanity.

[Guest alex]

Which sort of inadvertently backs up the assertion that religion wasn't really a major factor in most 20th Century wars and conflicts. Without checking I'd guess more more people killed on the first day of the Somme than in the whole of the Troubles.

 

Undoubtedly but WWI was caused by empires squaring up to each other - I see both nationalism and religion (though more in the past) as part of the whole tribal tendency of humanity and both equally as "wrong". I know you could argue its natural but my hope is that by this stage in our develonment the need to be defined so strongly in one "gang" or another would be lessened.

 

One notion about Islam I admire at a basic level is the notion of a brotherhood which transcends borders - unfortunately based on one religion rather than a "simple" notion of humanity.

I don't have much time for religion. That's a different point altogether though.

[Fop 1]

Which sort of inadvertently backs up the assertion that religion wasn't really a major factor in most 20th Century wars and conflicts. Without checking I'd guess more more people killed on the first day of the Somme than in the whole of the Troubles.

 

Undoubtedly but WWI was caused by empires squaring up to each other - I see both nationalism and religion (though more in the past) as part of the whole tribal tendency of humanity and both equally as "wrong". I know you could argue its natural but my hope is that by this stage in our develonment the need to be defined so strongly in one "gang" or another would be lessened.

 

One notion about Islam I admire at a basic level is the notion of a brotherhood which transcends borders - unfortunately based on one religion rather than a "simple" notion of humanity.

 

 

Well apart from Shia/Sunni issues and Persian/Arab/Kurd issues.

 

And of course Islam/anyone else issues.

 

 

Islam is a religion that has grasped political force right from the off though..... which is all religion (like war) really is a good way for someone to get rich off the back/pain/misery/suffering/deaths of others.

[ChezGiven 0]

I think Fop was talking about Communism in the real world. In much the same way pure capitalism doesn't exist I still don't think it's any more unreasonable to call the Soviet Union, China or Yugoslvia (as they were) 'Communist' than it is to call Britain or the USA 'Capitalist'. Also, Lenin tried to impose pure communism (or War Communism as I believe he called it) and it had to be canned because it was completely unworkable.

 

Alfred Marshall captured it best when he said that "they are separated by degrees and one shades imperceptibly into the next".

[NJS 4375]

Islam is a religion that has grasped political force right from the off though..... which is all religion (like war) really is a good way for someone to get rich off the back/pain/misery/suffering/deaths of others.

 

Christianity came to prominence as a uniting force for the Roman Empire so no different to Islam really.

[Fop 1]

Islam is a religion that has grasped political force right from the off though..... which is all religion (like war) really is a good way for someone to get rich off the back/pain/misery/suffering/deaths of others.

 

Christianity came to prominence as a uniting force for the Roman Empire so no different to Islam really.

 

Nah, if you look at the histories they gained power in differing ways, it was a different time though (Christianity was used as a tool in an already massive an utterly dominant empire), but still they grasped the idea of marrying religious and political (and indeed economic) control very early on (almost from its inception), and most of the waves of expansion were largely by the sword or at least through martial might.

 

Reminds me quite a lot of the USSR and post-WW2 Europe in fact.

[Happy Face 29]

Watched the show like. Canny.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00fk...oors_Episode_1/

[Rob W 0]

I was in town the other week and there were some studes peddling copies of the Social Worker and doing an anti-war protest at the Monument. They were flying a Che Guevara flag without a hint of irony.

 

 

Socialist Worker is the Trots Alex - they aren't big fans of JV Stalin

[Rob W 0]

Anyone interested in J V Stalin should read the two recent books by Simon Sebag Montefiore - Young Stalin and Stalin - At the Court of the Red Tsar

 

He was a very interesting character - published poet, good singer, excellent dancer, paid his bills and remembered old friends

 

But for holding a grudge, plotting and straight visceral dangerous he's yer man without a doubt

Edited November 12, 2008 by Rob W

[Fop 1]

Anyone interested in J V Stalin should read the two recent books by Simon Sebag Montefiore - Young Stalin and Stalin - At the Court of the Red Tsar

 

He was a very interesting character - published poet, good singer, excellent dancer, paid his bills and remembered old friends

 

But for holding a grudge, plotting and straight visceral dangerous he's yer man without a doubt

 

 

And for killing at least 20-30,000,000 civilians (not counting people in wars - and yes Alex estimates go up to 40-60,000,000 - still not counting wars ).

[Guest alex]

I was in town the other week and there were some studes peddling copies of the Social Worker and doing an anti-war protest at the Monument. They were flying a Che Guevara flag without a hint of irony.

 

 

Socialist Worker is the Trots Alex - they aren't big fans of JV Stalin

Did I say they were?

[Park Life 71]

Anyone interested in J V Stalin should read the two recent books by Simon Sebag Montefiore - Young Stalin and Stalin - At the Court of the Red Tsar

 

He was a very interesting character - published poet, good singer, excellent dancer, paid his bills and remembered old friends

 

But for holding a grudge, plotting and straight visceral dangerous he's yer man without a doubt

 

 

And for killing at least 20-30,000,000 civilians (not counting people in wars - and yes Alex estimates go up to 40-60,000,000 - still not counting wars ).

 

It's the burden of leadership. No-one takes you seriously till you start the kill count.

[Fop 1]

Anyone interested in J V Stalin should read the two recent books by Simon Sebag Montefiore - Young Stalin and Stalin - At the Court of the Red Tsar

 

He was a very interesting character - published poet, good singer, excellent dancer, paid his bills and remembered old friends

 

But for holding a grudge, plotting and straight visceral dangerous he's yer man without a doubt

 

 

And for killing at least 20-30,000,000 civilians (not counting people in wars - and yes Alex estimates go up to 40-60,000,000 - still not counting wars ).

 

It's the burden of leadership. No-one takes you seriously till you start the kill count.

 

It's pretty amazing that in total he probably killed more people than the Black Death.

[Rob W 0]

I was in town the other week and there were some studes peddling copies of the Social Worker and doing an anti-war protest at the Monument. They were flying a Che Guevara flag without a hint of irony.

 

 

Socialist Worker is the Trots Alex - they aren't big fans of JV Stalin

Did I say they were?

 

 

implied by association

 

now tell me the difference between the CPGB (M-L) and the CPB (M-L)

 

personally I always had a soft spot for the IWA - dug me and some mates out of a nasty do with the Front once

[Rob W 0]

Anyone interested in J V Stalin should read the two recent books by Simon Sebag Montefiore - Young Stalin and Stalin - At the Court of the Red Tsar

 

He was a very interesting character - published poet, good singer, excellent dancer, paid his bills and remembered old friends

 

But for holding a grudge, plotting and straight visceral dangerous he's yer man without a doubt

 

 

And for killing at least 20-30,000,000 civilians (not counting people in wars - and yes Alex estimates go up to 40-60,000,000 - still not counting wars ).

 

It's the burden of leadership. No-one takes you seriously till you start the kill count.

 

 

"Death solves all problems - no man, no problem." J V Stalin

[NJS 4375]

And for killing at least 20-30,000,000 civilians (not counting people in wars - and yes Alex estimates go up to 40-60,000,000 - still not counting wars ).

 

 

Theres a differennce between rounding up people and killing them (which he did) and people dying of starvation brought about as an unintended result of agricultural planning which didn't work.

 

I suppose thats semantics but he didn't make killing an industrial process like Hitler.

[Happy Face 29]

Counting wars, I'd blame Hitler for the 60,000,000 WW2 deaths.