US Election 2008

[Guest alex]

For someone who hates politicians Fop you're fond of nonsensical soundbites which don't bear much scrutiny.

[Guest alex]

This thread reminds me of when Baggio once claimed to be black. Then admitted that he wasnt. The denied that he'd ever claimed he was black. Then eventually admitted that he had.

[Park Life 71]

The thing is though - he appeals to the young, he appeals to the liberals, he appeals to women, he appeals to ethnic minorities, he appeals to those who like to see someone from a poor background achieve status and wealth (what the 'American Dream' is all about), etc., etc. What's wrong with using those assets? I don't see how he can be criticised on that score.

 

Exactly.

 

 

Next Fop will be telling us he's a black man.

 

Would it matter?

 

 

More importantly would it hold you back?

 

Well you can answer your own question by answering mine.

 

I've got you down as an honorary black man.

[ChezGiven 0]

I dont know where this obsession with discussing race comes from. Colin Powell has just said that Obama is not an African-American President but an American President (elect).

 

He won the election as an American and not as anything else.

[Fop 1]

The thing is though - he appeals to the young, he appeals to the liberals, he appeals to women, he appeals to ethnic minorities, he appeals to those who like to see someone from a poor background achieve status and wealth (what the 'American Dream' is all about), etc., etc. What's wrong with using those assets? I don't see how he can be criticised on that score.

 

Nothing from the point of pragmatic politician, but quite a lot from the point of a messiah.

 

Propagating what myth?

The myth of race.

The 'myth' that he's black? Is that what you mean? Because he's of mixed race? Forgive me if I'm wrong but aren't you having a pop at him for being 'inclusive' for political gain? Yet you seem to be saying he's playing on his 'blackness' too, aren't you?

 

I'm saying that rather than saying it that doesn't matter, he's saying "I'm this... and this... and this... and this. I'm you, even if you believe yourself to be completely different to them." Only of course his campaign is far to polished to put it so crudely.

 

But as for the myth, do you believe "race" exists? And if so what is it?

[Park Life 71]

I dont know where this obsession with discussing race comes from. Colin Powell has just said that Obama is not an African-American President but an American President (elect).

 

He won the election as an American and not as anything else.

 

 

That's not good enough apparently.

[Guest alex]

I dont know where this obsession with discussing race comes from. Colin Powell has just said that Obama is not an African-American President but an American President (elect).

 

He won the election as an American and not as anything else.

Tbf, it race was the issue some would have you believe, he wouldn't have gotten elected anyway. Although it obviously was an issue all the same. I can't help thinking Palin has set women back a few years in US political terms though.

[Park Life 71]

The thing is though - he appeals to the young, he appeals to the liberals, he appeals to women, he appeals to ethnic minorities, he appeals to those who like to see someone from a poor background achieve status and wealth (what the 'American Dream' is all about), etc., etc. What's wrong with using those assets? I don't see how he can be criticised on that score.

 

Nothing from the point of pragmatic politician, but quite a lot from the point of a messiah.

 

Propagating what myth?

The myth of race.

The 'myth' that he's black? Is that what you mean? Because he's of mixed race? Forgive me if I'm wrong but aren't you having a pop at him for being 'inclusive' for political gain? Yet you seem to be saying he's playing on his 'blackness' too, aren't you?

 

I'm saying that rather than saying it that doesn't matter, he's saying "I'm this... and this... and this... and this. I'm you, even if you believe yourself to be completely different to them." Only of course his campaign is far to polished to put it so crudely.

 

But as for the myth, do you believe "race" exists? And if so what is it?

 

 

Seriously man you're killing us with this shit.

[Fop 1]

For someone who hates politicians Fop you're fond of nonsensical soundbites which don't bear much scrutiny.

They make sense, just maybe not to you (or anyone else here).

[ChezGiven 0]

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/11/05/...alestinians.php

 

Whilst the world wasnt looking.

[Fop 1]

I dont know where this obsession with discussing race comes from. Colin Powell has just said that Obama is not an African-American President but an American President (elect).

 

He won the election as an American and not as anything else.

 

And yet it probably did matter to him.

[Guest alex]

The thing is though - he appeals to the young, he appeals to the liberals, he appeals to women, he appeals to ethnic minorities, he appeals to those who like to see someone from a poor background achieve status and wealth (what the 'American Dream' is all about), etc., etc. What's wrong with using those assets? I don't see how he can be criticised on that score.

 

Nothing from the point of pragmatic politician, but quite a lot from the point of a messiah.

 

Propagating what myth?

The myth of race.

The 'myth' that he's black? Is that what you mean? Because he's of mixed race? Forgive me if I'm wrong but aren't you having a pop at him for being 'inclusive' for political gain? Yet you seem to be saying he's playing on his 'blackness' too, aren't you?

 

I'm saying that rather than saying it that doesn't matter, he's saying "I'm this... and this... and this... and this. I'm you, even if you believe yourself to be completely different to them." Only of course his campaign is far to polished to put it so crudely.

 

But as for the myth, do you believe "race" exists? And if so what is it?

You brought 'the myth of race'. I did ask what that meant above didn't I? It's your phrase. If I've interpreted it incorrectly (i.e. I thought you were saying he wasn't black), by all means say what you did mean.

[ChezGiven 0]

I dont know where this obsession with discussing race comes from. Colin Powell has just said that Obama is not an African-American President but an American President (elect).

 

He won the election as an American and not as anything else.

Tbf, it race was the issue some would have you believe, he wouldn't have gotten elected anyway. Although it obviously was an issue all the same. I can't help thinking Palin has set women back a few years in US political terms though.

 

Obama-girl has been doing some good work.

 

[Park Life 71]

I dont know where this obsession with discussing race comes from. Colin Powell has just said that Obama is not an African-American President but an American President (elect).

 

He won the election as an American and not as anything else.

Tbf, it race was the issue some would have you believe, he wouldn't have gotten elected anyway. Although it obviously was an issue all the same. I can't help thinking Palin has set women back a few years in US political terms though.

 

Obama-girl has been doing some good work.

 

 

 

She's clearly not black enough.

[Fop 1]

The thing is though - he appeals to the young, he appeals to the liberals, he appeals to women, he appeals to ethnic minorities, he appeals to those who like to see someone from a poor background achieve status and wealth (what the 'American Dream' is all about), etc., etc. What's wrong with using those assets? I don't see how he can be criticised on that score.

 

Nothing from the point of pragmatic politician, but quite a lot from the point of a messiah.

 

Propagating what myth?

The myth of race.

The 'myth' that he's black? Is that what you mean? Because he's of mixed race? Forgive me if I'm wrong but aren't you having a pop at him for being 'inclusive' for political gain? Yet you seem to be saying he's playing on his 'blackness' too, aren't you?

 

I'm saying that rather than saying it that doesn't matter, he's saying "I'm this... and this... and this... and this. I'm you, even if you believe yourself to be completely different to them." Only of course his campaign is far to polished to put it so crudely.

 

But as for the myth, do you believe "race" exists? And if so what is it?

You brought 'the myth of race'. I did ask what that meant above didn't I? It's your phrase. If I've interpreted it incorrectly (i.e. I thought you were saying he wasn't black), by all means say what you did mean.

 

Like I said originally he's Whack or Blite in labelistic terms.

 

But he was positioned to be neither, instead he chose to be both when it suited.

[Park Life 71]

The myth of fucking race!! [Fopdaddy/]

[Guest alex]

The thing is though - he appeals to the young, he appeals to the liberals, he appeals to women, he appeals to ethnic minorities, he appeals to those who like to see someone from a poor background achieve status and wealth (what the 'American Dream' is all about), etc., etc. What's wrong with using those assets? I don't see how he can be criticised on that score.

 

Nothing from the point of pragmatic politician, but quite a lot from the point of a messiah.

 

Propagating what myth?

The myth of race.

The 'myth' that he's black? Is that what you mean? Because he's of mixed race? Forgive me if I'm wrong but aren't you having a pop at him for being 'inclusive' for political gain? Yet you seem to be saying he's playing on his 'blackness' too, aren't you?

 

I'm saying that rather than saying it that doesn't matter, he's saying "I'm this... and this... and this... and this. I'm you, even if you believe yourself to be completely different to them." Only of course his campaign is far to polished to put it so crudely.

 

But as for the myth, do you believe "race" exists? And if so what is it?

You brought 'the myth of race'. I did ask what that meant above didn't I? It's your phrase. If I've interpreted it incorrectly (i.e. I thought you were saying he wasn't black), by all means say what you did mean.

 

Like I said originally he's Whack or Blite in labelistic terms.

 

But he was positioned to be neither, instead he chose to be both when it suited.

He is both. According to you as well. Hence the inclusiveness. Not sure he chose that though. In either the sense you mean or the normal sense. What did you mean by the 'myth of race' by the way?

Edited November 5, 2008 by alex

[ChezGiven 0]

Obama entered US politics through the mainstream, not like Jesse Jackson who was part of the civil rights movement. He is just an American politician. A very good one too.

[Happy Face 29]

 

I was responding to the only "point" I could decipher in your original post, that "he's doing more to sustain racism than he is to destroy it."

 

That's why I started my reponse as i did.

 

I didn't thing you "couldn't put it more plainly because it was racist", I assumed (like everyone else) you don't have a clue what you're on about yourself so have taken to filibustering by responding to older posts rather than respond to what's been asked of you now.

 

 

 

Do you or do you not think defining someone by their skin colour (correctly or not) is racist?

 

And do you think playing to that is inclusive or polarising?

 

 

I think he's made speeches that make plain how racial divisions have broken down and how his vision of America is one that works together for the common good...

 

There is a young, twenty-three year old white woman named Ashley Baia who organized for our campaign in Florence, South Carolina. She had been working to organize a mostly African-American community since the beginning of this campaign, and one day she was at a roundtable discussion where everyone went around telling their story and why they were there.

 

 

And Ashley said that when she was nine years old, her mother got cancer. And because she had to miss days of work, she was let go and lost her health care. They had to file for bankruptcy, and that's when Ashley decided that she had to do something to help her mom.

 

 

She knew that food was one of their most expensive costs, and so Ashley convinced her mother that what she really liked and really wanted to eat more than anything else was mustard and relish sandwiches. Because that was the cheapest way to eat.

 

 

She did this for a year until her mom got better, and she told everyone at the roundtable that the reason she joined our campaign was so that she could help the millions of other children in the country who want and need to help their parents too.

 

 

Now Ashley might have made a different choice. Perhaps somebody told her along the way that the source of her mother's problems were blacks who were on welfare and too lazy to work, or Hispanics who were coming into the country illegally. But she didn't. She sought out allies in her fight against injustice.

 

 

Anyway, Ashley finishes her story and then goes around the room and asks everyone else why they're supporting the campaign. They all have different stories and reasons. Many bring up a specific issue. And finally they come to this elderly black man who's been sitting there quietly the entire time. And Ashley asks him why he's there. And he does not bring up a specific issue. He does not say health care or the economy. He does not say education or the war. He does not say that he was there because of Barack Obama. He simply says to everyone in the room, "I am here because of Ashley."

 

 

"I'm here because of Ashley." By itself, that single moment of recognition between that young white girl and that old black man is not enough. It is not enough to give health care to the sick, or jobs to the jobless, or education to our children.

 

 

But it is where we start. It is where our union grows stronger. And as so many generations have come to realize over the course of the two-hundred and twenty one years since a band of patriots signed that document in Philadelphia, that is where the perfection begins.

 

Your argument belongs in a bygone era with the Black Panthers and the KKK. Everyone else has transcended that already. McCain basically retained the confederacy states last night. Obama didn't win everything else because of his race. He won primarily thanks to the ineptitude/arrogance of George Bush and Dick Cheney. Hilary Clinton would have won it too and it would have been just as historic to have a female in the top spot.

[manc-mag 1]

I think he's made speeches that make plain how racial divisions have broken down and how his vision of America is one that works together for the common good...

 

There is a young, twenty-three year old white woman named Ashley Baia who organized for our campaign in Florence, South Carolina. She had been working to organize a mostly African-American community since the beginning of this campaign, and one day she was at a roundtable discussion where everyone went around telling their story and why they were there.

 

 

And Ashley said that when she was nine years old, her mother got cancer. And because she had to miss days of work, she was let go and lost her health care. They had to file for bankruptcy, and that's when Ashley decided that she had to do something to help her mom.

 

 

She knew that food was one of their most expensive costs, and so Ashley convinced her mother that what she really liked and really wanted to eat more than anything else was mustard and relish sandwiches. Because that was the cheapest way to eat.

 

 

She did this for a year until her mom got better, and she told everyone at the roundtable that the reason she joined our campaign was so that she could help the millions of other children in the country who want and need to help their parents too.

 

 

Now Ashley might have made a different choice. Perhaps somebody told her along the way that the source of her mother's problems were blacks who were on welfare and too lazy to work, or Hispanics who were coming into the country illegally. But she didn't. She sought out allies in her fight against injustice.

 

 

Anyway, Ashley finishes her story and then goes around the room and asks everyone else why they're supporting the campaign. They all have different stories and reasons. Many bring up a specific issue. And finally they come to this elderly black man who's been sitting there quietly the entire time. And Ashley asks him why he's there. And he does not bring up a specific issue. He does not say health care or the economy. He does not say education or the war. He does not say that he was there because of Barack Obama. He simply says to everyone in the room, "I am here because of Ashley."

 

 

"I'm here because of Ashley." By itself, that single moment of recognition between that young white girl and that old black man is not enough. It is not enough to give health care to the sick, or jobs to the jobless, or education to our children.

 

 

But it is where we start. It is where our union grows stronger. And as so many generations have come to realize over the course of the two-hundred and twenty one years since a band of patriots signed that document in Philadelphia, that is where the perfection begins.

 

Your argument belongs in a bygone era with the Black Panthers and the KKK. Everyone else has transcended that already. McCain basically retained the confederacy states last night. Obama didn't win everything else because of his race. He won primarily thanks to the ineptitude/arrogance of George Bush and Dick Cheney. Hilary Clinton would have won it too and it would have been just as historic to have a female in the top spot.

 

mustard and relish sandwiches?!

 

Jesus I wouldn't have wanted to be downwind of those roundtable talks.

[NJS 4389]

McCain basically retained the confederacy states last night. Obama didn't win everything else because of his race. He won primarily thanks to the ineptitude/arrogance of George Bush and Dick Cheney. Hilary Clinton would have won it too and it would have been just as historic to have a female in the top spot.

 

Despite all of the hope and vision this is true. Just like in 97 all the hope brought by Blair was tainted because he only got in because after 18 years people wanted something/anything else.

 

If the financial crash hadn't happened McCain would probably have won. If he'd found a VP who reached out to people instead of polarising them I think he would have won.

 

Hope is fine but realism is a bitch.

[Fop 1]

The thing is though - he appeals to the young, he appeals to the liberals, he appeals to women, he appeals to ethnic minorities, he appeals to those who like to see someone from a poor background achieve status and wealth (what the 'American Dream' is all about), etc., etc. What's wrong with using those assets? I don't see how he can be criticised on that score.

 

Nothing from the point of pragmatic politician, but quite a lot from the point of a messiah.

 

Propagating what myth?

The myth of race.

The 'myth' that he's black? Is that what you mean? Because he's of mixed race? Forgive me if I'm wrong but aren't you having a pop at him for being 'inclusive' for political gain? Yet you seem to be saying he's playing on his 'blackness' too, aren't you?

 

I'm saying that rather than saying it that doesn't matter, he's saying "I'm this... and this... and this... and this. I'm you, even if you believe yourself to be completely different to them." Only of course his campaign is far to polished to put it so crudely.

 

But as for the myth, do you believe "race" exists? And if so what is it?

You brought 'the myth of race'. I did ask what that meant above didn't I? It's your phrase. If I've interpreted it incorrectly (i.e. I thought you were saying he wasn't black), by all means say what you did mean.

 

Like I said originally he's Whack or Blite in labelistic terms.

 

But he was positioned to be neither, instead he chose to be both when it suited.

He is both. According to you as well. Hence the inclusiveness. Not sure he chose that though. In either the sense you mean or the normal sense. What did you mean by the 'myth of race' by the way?

 

That there is no such thing, or at least if there is then Ginger is a race too.

 

 

 

Obama entered US politics through the mainstream, not like Jesse Jackson who was part of the civil rights movement. He is just an American politician. A very good one too.

 

He's not the messiah, he's a very good politician.

 

 

 

I was responding to the only "point" I could decipher in your original post, that "he's doing more to sustain racism than he is to destroy it."

 

That's why I started my reponse as i did.

 

I didn't thing you "couldn't put it more plainly because it was racist", I assumed (like everyone else) you don't have a clue what you're on about yourself so have taken to filibustering by responding to older posts rather than respond to what's been asked of you now.

 

 

 

Do you or do you not think defining someone by their skin colour (correctly or not) is racist?

 

And do you think playing to that is inclusive or polarising?

 

 

I think he's made speeches that make plain how racial divisions have broken down and how his vision of America is one that works together for the common good...

 

There is a young, twenty-three year old white woman named Ashley Baia who organized for our campaign in Florence, South Carolina. She had been working to organize a mostly African-American community since the beginning of this campaign, and one day she was at a roundtable discussion where everyone went around telling their story and why they were there.

 

 

And Ashley said that when she was nine years old, her mother got cancer. And because she had to miss days of work, she was let go and lost her health care. They had to file for bankruptcy, and that's when Ashley decided that she had to do something to help her mom.

 

 

She knew that food was one of their most expensive costs, and so Ashley convinced her mother that what she really liked and really wanted to eat more than anything else was mustard and relish sandwiches. Because that was the cheapest way to eat.

 

 

She did this for a year until her mom got better, and she told everyone at the roundtable that the reason she joined our campaign was so that she could help the millions of other children in the country who want and need to help their parents too.

 

 

Now Ashley might have made a different choice. Perhaps somebody told her along the way that the source of her mother's problems were blacks who were on welfare and too lazy to work, or Hispanics who were coming into the country illegally. But she didn't. She sought out allies in her fight against injustice.

 

 

Anyway, Ashley finishes her story and then goes around the room and asks everyone else why they're supporting the campaign. They all have different stories and reasons. Many bring up a specific issue. And finally they come to this elderly black man who's been sitting there quietly the entire time. And Ashley asks him why he's there. And he does not bring up a specific issue. He does not say health care or the economy. He does not say education or the war. He does not say that he was there because of Barack Obama. He simply says to everyone in the room, "I am here because of Ashley."

 

 

"I'm here because of Ashley." By itself, that single moment of recognition between that young white girl and that old black man is not enough. It is not enough to give health care to the sick, or jobs to the jobless, or education to our children.

 

 

But it is where we start. It is where our union grows stronger. And as so many generations have come to realize over the course of the two-hundred and twenty one years since a band of patriots signed that document in Philadelphia, that is where the perfection begins.

 

Your argument belongs in a bygone era with the Black Panthers and the KKK. Everyone else has transcended that already. McCain basically retained the confederacy states last night. Obama didn't win everything else because of his race. He won primarily thanks to the ineptitude/arrogance of George Bush and Dick Cheney. Hilary Clinton would have won it too and it would have been just as historic to have a female in the top spot.

 

No, I think it's a brand new era™ of the same old same old™ (now lemon flavoured).

[Happy Face 29]

No, I think it's a brand new era™ of the same old same old™ (now lemon flavoured).

 

Who would have got your vote Fop?

[Fop 1]

No, I think it's a brand new era™ of the same old same old™ (now lemon flavoured).

 

Who would have got your vote Fop?

Anyone but Hilary.

 

But out of the two, probably Obama (or perhaps a 3rd candidate protest vote ). I'm holding out for the first hispanic lesbian President before I throw my weight behind them.

[Happy Face 29]

No, I think it's a brand new era™ of the same old same old™ (now lemon flavoured).

 

Who would have got your vote Fop?

Anyone but Hilary.

 

But out of the two, probably Obama (or perhaps a 3rd candidate protest vote ). I'm holding out for the first hispanic lesbian President before I throw my weight behind them.

 

I thought as much.

 

This reminds me of the 'Lest we forget thread' where you chose Rememberance Sunday to tell everyone that they've forgotten WW1's heroes. As if you were the only one that could realise the horror of such a thing, when in fact, you're in very much the same boat as all the rest of us.

 

See you tomorrow for more straw man erecting you attention whore.