Giant database plan 'Orwellian'

[Park Life 71]

This has gotten away from the OP. I must admit I find that issue pretty sinister. Regarding the DNA database, I don't think anyone has a problem with it in priniciple but the way in which it is being compiled and the people who get put on it is certainly cause for concern. The sort of stuff Danny has come out with, i.e. what's the odd person being inconvenienced set against all the rapists and murderers it will catch is, imo anyway, exactly what the authorities want people to think in order to, at some future point, have everybody in the country on it. Exactly what it will be used for in the future - who can say? And as Fop points out, the government has already lied about what it will be used for and moved the goalposts about who goes on it. We have to be very careful about what rights we give away in this country because when you think about lots of areas, it really is scary to think of the way civil liberties are being eroded. Not just in this matter and the one in the OP but basic things like the right to protest plus the amount of CCTV surveillance and so on. The 'if you've got nothing to hide, you've got nothing to worry about' is the sort of attitude that will allow this to continue at the current rate. It's all being done by stealth as well.

 

 

How long before the whole of Europe are on it and have access to each others data?

 

 

*News from the future.

[JawD 99]

Aye, because you'd trust the government to keep such a database safe. Its not like they ever let this sort of thing get copied onto a flash drive and left on a train is it.....

[Lazarus 0]

This has gotten away from the OP. I must admit I find that issue pretty sinister. Regarding the DNA database, I don't think anyone has a problem with it in priniciple but the way in which it is being compiled and the people who get put on it is certainly cause for concern. The sort of stuff Danny has come out with, i.e. what's the odd person being inconvenienced set against all the rapists and murderers it will catch is, imo anyway, exactly what the authorities want people to think in order to, at some future point, have everybody in the country on it. Exactly what it will be used for in the future - who can say? And as Fop points out, the government has already lied about what it will be used for and moved the goalposts about who goes on it. We have to be very careful about what rights we give away in this country because when you think about lots of areas, it really is scary to think of the way civil liberties are being eroded. Not just in this matter and the one in the OP but basic things like the right to protest plus the amount of CCTV surveillance and so on. The 'if you've got nothing to hide, you've got nothing to worry about' is the sort of attitude that will allow this to continue at the current rate. It's all being done by stealth as well.

 

 

How long before the whole of Europe are on it and have access to each others data?

 

 

*News from the future.

 

America already has access to our banking records and is given info on any european travellers to north america iirc.

[Lazarus 0]

and its widely rumoured that as the uk and the US cant spy on its own citizens they monitor each others and swap the data regularly.

[Park Life 71]

and its widely rumoured that as the uk and the US cant spy on its own citizens they monitor each others and swap the data regularly.

 

This is true. We spy on the Whitehouse and they on Downing street. There was some confusion to this arrangement during the Clinton era when a Israeli based "company" was looking after the phones in the Whitehouse. You couldn't make it up.

[trophyshy 7066]

and its widely rumoured that as the uk and the US cant spy on its own citizens they monitor each others and swap the data regularly.

 

For some reason this conjured up the image of George Bush and Gordon Brown french kissing.

[Fop 1]

and its widely rumoured that as the uk and the US cant spy on its own citizens they monitor each others and swap the data regularly.

 

For some reason this conjured up the image of George Bush and Gordon Brown french kissing.

 

 

Seek help, quickly.

[trophyshy 7066]

and its widely rumoured that as the uk and the US cant spy on its own citizens they monitor each others and swap the data regularly.

 

For some reason this conjured up the image of George Bush and Gordon Brown french kissing.

 

 

Seek help, quickly.

 

I'm going to the pub in 10 minutes.

[luckyluke 2]

My friend is a teacher. At her school, children don't pay for their dinners with cash, or a card, but swipe their finger on a scanner AS THE SCHOOL HAS ALL THEIR FINGERPRINTS ON RECORD and can identify them this way. Now that is fucking scary.

[Park Life 71]

My friend is a teacher. At her school, children don't pay for their dinners with cash, or a card, but swipe their finger on a scanner AS THE SCHOOL HAS ALL THEIR FINGERPRINTS ON RECORD and can identify them this way. Now that is fucking scary.

 

 

The dumbass parents must have signed summat.

[Tom 14011]

The dumbass parent's might not have had an alternative if they wanted their children to eat I suppose.

[Fop 1]

My friend is a teacher. At her school, children don't pay for their dinners with cash, or a card, but swipe their finger on a scanner AS THE SCHOOL HAS ALL THEIR FINGERPRINTS ON RECORD and can identify them this way. Now that is fucking scary.

 

 

It's not so bad as long as it's not linked to a general system, but still iffy IMO.

 

Biometrics themselves aren't a necessarily bad ideas, but at the very least they should be thing like retina scans which can't be picked up by a 3rd party in any realistic way.

[Park Life 71]

My friend is a teacher. At her school, children don't pay for their dinners with cash, or a card, but swipe their finger on a scanner AS THE SCHOOL HAS ALL THEIR FINGERPRINTS ON RECORD and can identify them this way. Now that is fucking scary.

 

 

It's not so bad as long as it's not linked to a general system, but still iffy IMO.

 

Biometrics themselves aren't a necessarily bad ideas, but at the very least they should be thing like retina scans which can't be picked up by a 3rd party in any realistic way.

 

I bet you'll be able to get contact lenses in a few years that match the retinas of famous people. © Parky Industries.

[Fop 1]

My friend is a teacher. At her school, children don't pay for their dinners with cash, or a card, but swipe their finger on a scanner AS THE SCHOOL HAS ALL THEIR FINGERPRINTS ON RECORD and can identify them this way. Now that is fucking scary.

 

 

It's not so bad as long as it's not linked to a general system, but still iffy IMO.

 

Biometrics themselves aren't a necessarily bad ideas, but at the very least they should be thing like retina scans which can't be picked up by a 3rd party in any realistic way.

 

I bet you'll be able to get contact lenses in a few years that match the retinas of famous people. © Parky Industries.

 

Well you can beat most fingerprint scanners with a photocopied print so who knows.

[luckyluke 2]

My friend is a teacher. At her school, children don't pay for their dinners with cash, or a card, but swipe their finger on a scanner AS THE SCHOOL HAS ALL THEIR FINGERPRINTS ON RECORD and can identify them this way. Now that is fucking scary.

 

 

It's not so bad as long as it's not linked to a general system, but still iffy IMO.

 

Biometrics themselves aren't a necessarily bad ideas, but at the very least they should be thing like retina scans which can't be picked up by a 3rd party in any realistic way.

 

I thought this would be right up your street, you disappoint me.

 

I would hope that the prints are deleted from record when the kids leave the school, the worrying thing is that the children will grow up thinking this sort of monitoring is normal.

[Fop 1]

My friend is a teacher. At her school, children don't pay for their dinners with cash, or a card, but swipe their finger on a scanner AS THE SCHOOL HAS ALL THEIR FINGERPRINTS ON RECORD and can identify them this way. Now that is fucking scary.

 

 

It's not so bad as long as it's not linked to a general system, but still iffy IMO.

 

Biometrics themselves aren't a necessarily bad ideas, but at the very least they should be thing like retina scans which can't be picked up by a 3rd party in any realistic way.

 

I thought this would be right up your street, you disappoint me.

 

I would hope that the prints are deleted from record when the kids leave the school, the worrying thing is that the children will grow up thinking this sort of monitoring is normal.

 

With the right cast iron safeguards it's not so bad (although it's not so hard to beat either, as mentioned), but yes you're right about the conditioning issue. Get them used to being good little boys and girls and it shouldn't be an issue later on.

 

 

 

 

 

 

But without the right safeguards it does become an Orwellian nightmare, allowing linking (as CCTV cameras are increasingly linked to central databases and tied with facial recognition software - the days of your movements being able to be routinely plotted around towns are not very far away technically, and possibly in reality too) and things spiral out of control very quickly (even if the intent is genuinely not there).

 

 

ID cards have this issue too, initially it was A print, now it's all prints of a hand and probably will end up being all fingerprints - what do you end up with?

 

A complete population fingerprint database BY STEALTH.

 

 

 

This whole area is genuinely one of the most serious issues of the UKs future, up there with population/overcrowding and oil dependence. Once the Government has you thinking you're a number then your just cattle and your civilization is doomed.

[Park Life 71]

A society at war with itself?

[Tom 14011]

Hi Danny..

 

Clicky

 

Everyone who buys a mobile telephone will be forced to register their identity on a national database under government plans to extend massively the powers of state surveillance.

 

Phone buyers would have to present a passport or other official form of identification at the point of purchase. Privacy campaigners fear it marks the latest government move to create a surveillance society.

 

A compulsory national register for the owners of all 72m mobile phones in Britain would be part of a much bigger database to combat terrorism and crime. Whitehall officials have raised the idea of a register containing the names and addresses of everyone who buys a phone in recent talks with Vodafone and other telephone companies, insiders say.

 

The move is targeted at monitoring the owners of Britain’s estimated 40m prepaid mobile phones. They can be purchased with cash by customers who do not wish to give their names, addresses or credit card details.

 

The pay-as-you-go phones are popular with criminals and terrorists because their anonymity shields their activities from the authorities. But they are also used by thousands of law-abiding citizens who wish to communicate in private.

 

The move aims to close a loophole in plans being drawn up by GCHQ, the government’s eavesdropping centre in Cheltenham, to create a huge database to monitor and store the internet browsing habits, e-mail and telephone records of everyone in Britain.

 

The “Big Brother” database would have limited value to police and MI5 if it did not store details of the ownership of more than half the mobile phones in the country.

 

Contingency planning for such a move is already thought to be under way at Vodafone, where 72% of its 18.5m UK customers use pay-as-you-go.

 

The office of Richard Thomas, the information commissioner, said it anticipated that a compulsory mobile phone register would be unveiled as part of a law which ministers would announce next year.

 

“With regards to the database that would contain details of all mobile users, including pay-as-you-go, we would expect that this information would be included in the database proposed in the draft Communications Data Bill,” a spokeswoman said.

 

Simon Davies, of Privacy International, said he understood that several mobile phone firms had discussed the proposed database in talks with government officials.

 

As The Sunday Times revealed earlier this month, GCHQ has already been provided with up to £1 billion to work on the pilot stage of the Big Brother database, which will see thousands of “black boxes” installed on communications lines provided by Vodafone and BT as part of a pilot interception programme.

 

The proposals have sparked a fierce backlash inside Whitehall. Senior officials in the Home Office have privately warned that the database scheme is impractical, disproportionate and potentially unlawful. The revolt last week forced Jacqui Smith, the home secretary, to delay announcing plans for the database until next year.

[snakehips 0]

Hi Danny..

 

Clicky

 

Everyone who buys a mobile telephone will be forced to register their identity on a national database under government plans to extend massively the powers of state surveillance.

 

Phone buyers would have to present a passport or other official form of identification at the point of purchase. Privacy campaigners fear it marks the latest government move to create a surveillance society.

 

A compulsory national register for the owners of all 72m mobile phones in Britain would be part of a much bigger database to combat terrorism and crime. Whitehall officials have raised the idea of a register containing the names and addresses of everyone who buys a phone in recent talks with Vodafone and other telephone companies, insiders say.

 

The move is targeted at monitoring the owners of Britain’s estimated 40m prepaid mobile phones. They can be purchased with cash by customers who do not wish to give their names, addresses or credit card details.

 

The pay-as-you-go phones are popular with criminals and terrorists because their anonymity shields their activities from the authorities. But they are also used by thousands of law-abiding citizens who wish to communicate in private.

 

The move aims to close a loophole in plans being drawn up by GCHQ, the government’s eavesdropping centre in Cheltenham, to create a huge database to monitor and store the internet browsing habits, e-mail and telephone records of everyone in Britain.

 

The “Big Brother” database would have limited value to police and MI5 if it did not store details of the ownership of more than half the mobile phones in the country.

 

Contingency planning for such a move is already thought to be under way at Vodafone, where 72% of its 18.5m UK customers use pay-as-you-go.

 

The office of Richard Thomas, the information commissioner, said it anticipated that a compulsory mobile phone register would be unveiled as part of a law which ministers would announce next year.

 

“With regards to the database that would contain details of all mobile users, including pay-as-you-go, we would expect that this information would be included in the database proposed in the draft Communications Data Bill,” a spokeswoman said.

 

Simon Davies, of Privacy International, said he understood that several mobile phone firms had discussed the proposed database in talks with government officials.

 

As The Sunday Times revealed earlier this month, GCHQ has already been provided with up to £1 billion to work on the pilot stage of the Big Brother database, which will see thousands of “black boxes” installed on communications lines provided by Vodafone and BT as part of a pilot interception programme.

 

The proposals have sparked a fierce backlash inside Whitehall. Senior officials in the Home Office have privately warned that the database scheme is impractical, disproportionate and potentially unlawful. The revolt last week forced Jacqui Smith, the home secretary, to delay announcing plans for the database until next year.

 

This is nothing new. A person has to register when buying a sim card in India. No reason why UK shouldn't follow suit imo.

[Fop 1]

Hi Danny..

 

Clicky

 

Everyone who buys a mobile telephone will be forced to register their identity on a national database under government plans to extend massively the powers of state surveillance.

 

Phone buyers would have to present a passport or other official form of identification at the point of purchase. Privacy campaigners fear it marks the latest government move to create a surveillance society.

 

A compulsory national register for the owners of all 72m mobile phones in Britain would be part of a much bigger database to combat terrorism and crime. Whitehall officials have raised the idea of a register containing the names and addresses of everyone who buys a phone in recent talks with Vodafone and other telephone companies, insiders say.

 

The move is targeted at monitoring the owners of Britain’s estimated 40m prepaid mobile phones. They can be purchased with cash by customers who do not wish to give their names, addresses or credit card details.

 

The pay-as-you-go phones are popular with criminals and terrorists because their anonymity shields their activities from the authorities. But they are also used by thousands of law-abiding citizens who wish to communicate in private.

 

The move aims to close a loophole in plans being drawn up by GCHQ, the government’s eavesdropping centre in Cheltenham, to create a huge database to monitor and store the internet browsing habits, e-mail and telephone records of everyone in Britain.

 

The “Big Brother” database would have limited value to police and MI5 if it did not store details of the ownership of more than half the mobile phones in the country.

 

Contingency planning for such a move is already thought to be under way at Vodafone, where 72% of its 18.5m UK customers use pay-as-you-go.

 

The office of Richard Thomas, the information commissioner, said it anticipated that a compulsory mobile phone register would be unveiled as part of a law which ministers would announce next year.

 

“With regards to the database that would contain details of all mobile users, including pay-as-you-go, we would expect that this information would be included in the database proposed in the draft Communications Data Bill,” a spokeswoman said.

 

Simon Davies, of Privacy International, said he understood that several mobile phone firms had discussed the proposed database in talks with government officials.

 

As The Sunday Times revealed earlier this month, GCHQ has already been provided with up to £1 billion to work on the pilot stage of the Big Brother database, which will see thousands of “black boxes” installed on communications lines provided by Vodafone and BT as part of a pilot interception programme.

 

The proposals have sparked a fierce backlash inside Whitehall. Senior officials in the Home Office have privately warned that the database scheme is impractical, disproportionate and potentially unlawful. The revolt last week forced Jacqui Smith, the home secretary, to delay announcing plans for the database until next year.

 

 

 

It probably explains why they've been so ambivilent to Phorm, though they can hardly come out against it (as illegal as it is), if they are planning worse themselves.

[Douggy B 0]

Hi Danny..

 

Clicky

 

Everyone who buys a mobile telephone will be forced to register their identity on a national database under government plans to extend massively the powers of state surveillance.

 

Phone buyers would have to present a passport or other official form of identification at the point of purchase. Privacy campaigners fear it marks the latest government move to create a surveillance society.

 

A compulsory national register for the owners of all 72m mobile phones in Britain would be part of a much bigger database to combat terrorism and crime. Whitehall officials have raised the idea of a register containing the names and addresses of everyone who buys a phone in recent talks with Vodafone and other telephone companies, insiders say.

 

The move is targeted at monitoring the owners of Britain’s estimated 40m prepaid mobile phones. They can be purchased with cash by customers who do not wish to give their names, addresses or credit card details.

 

The pay-as-you-go phones are popular with criminals and terrorists because their anonymity shields their activities from the authorities. But they are also used by thousands of law-abiding citizens who wish to communicate in private.

 

The move aims to close a loophole in plans being drawn up by GCHQ, the government’s eavesdropping centre in Cheltenham, to create a huge database to monitor and store the internet browsing habits, e-mail and telephone records of everyone in Britain.

 

The “Big Brother” database would have limited value to police and MI5 if it did not store details of the ownership of more than half the mobile phones in the country.

 

Contingency planning for such a move is already thought to be under way at Vodafone, where 72% of its 18.5m UK customers use pay-as-you-go.

 

The office of Richard Thomas, the information commissioner, said it anticipated that a compulsory mobile phone register would be unveiled as part of a law which ministers would announce next year.

 

“With regards to the database that would contain details of all mobile users, including pay-as-you-go, we would expect that this information would be included in the database proposed in the draft Communications Data Bill,” a spokeswoman said.

 

Simon Davies, of Privacy International, said he understood that several mobile phone firms had discussed the proposed database in talks with government officials.

 

As The Sunday Times revealed earlier this month, GCHQ has already been provided with up to £1 billion to work on the pilot stage of the Big Brother database, which will see thousands of “black boxes” installed on communications lines provided by Vodafone and BT as part of a pilot interception programme.

 

The proposals have sparked a fierce backlash inside Whitehall. Senior officials in the Home Office have privately warned that the database scheme is impractical, disproportionate and potentially unlawful. The revolt last week forced Jacqui Smith, the home secretary, to delay announcing plans for the database until next year.

Thats fair enough. Lets face it if you are conducting criminal business using the phone you aren't going to have a contract.

 

I read not that long ago the the president of the Democratic republic of congo was receiving death threats from an unknown prepaid phone. He has demanded that all prepaids be registered within 3 months. The networks are now scrabbling around trying to avoid the 10K fine per unregistered sim they will have to pay if they dont comply.

 

Not interesting but true.

[Guest alex]

Hi Danny..

 

Clicky

 

Everyone who buys a mobile telephone will be forced to register their identity on a national database under government plans to extend massively the powers of state surveillance.

 

Phone buyers would have to present a passport or other official form of identification at the point of purchase. Privacy campaigners fear it marks the latest government move to create a surveillance society.

 

A compulsory national register for the owners of all 72m mobile phones in Britain would be part of a much bigger database to combat terrorism and crime. Whitehall officials have raised the idea of a register containing the names and addresses of everyone who buys a phone in recent talks with Vodafone and other telephone companies, insiders say.

 

The move is targeted at monitoring the owners of Britain’s estimated 40m prepaid mobile phones. They can be purchased with cash by customers who do not wish to give their names, addresses or credit card details.

 

The pay-as-you-go phones are popular with criminals and terrorists because their anonymity shields their activities from the authorities. But they are also used by thousands of law-abiding citizens who wish to communicate in private.

 

The move aims to close a loophole in plans being drawn up by GCHQ, the government’s eavesdropping centre in Cheltenham, to create a huge database to monitor and store the internet browsing habits, e-mail and telephone records of everyone in Britain.

 

The “Big Brother” database would have limited value to police and MI5 if it did not store details of the ownership of more than half the mobile phones in the country.

 

Contingency planning for such a move is already thought to be under way at Vodafone, where 72% of its 18.5m UK customers use pay-as-you-go.

 

The office of Richard Thomas, the information commissioner, said it anticipated that a compulsory mobile phone register would be unveiled as part of a law which ministers would announce next year.

 

“With regards to the database that would contain details of all mobile users, including pay-as-you-go, we would expect that this information would be included in the database proposed in the draft Communications Data Bill,” a spokeswoman said.

 

Simon Davies, of Privacy International, said he understood that several mobile phone firms had discussed the proposed database in talks with government officials.

 

As The Sunday Times revealed earlier this month, GCHQ has already been provided with up to £1 billion to work on the pilot stage of the Big Brother database, which will see thousands of “black boxes” installed on communications lines provided by Vodafone and BT as part of a pilot interception programme.

 

The proposals have sparked a fierce backlash inside Whitehall. Senior officials in the Home Office have privately warned that the database scheme is impractical, disproportionate and potentially unlawful. The revolt last week forced Jacqui Smith, the home secretary, to delay announcing plans for the database until next year.

Thats fair enough. Lets face it if you are conducting criminal business using the phone you aren't going to have a contract.

 

I read not that long ago the the president of the Democratic republic of congo was receiving death threats from an unknown prepaid phone. He has demanded that all prepaids be registered within 3 months. The networks are now scrabbling around trying to avoid the 10K fine per unregistered sim they will have to pay if they dont comply.

 

Not interesting but true.

You can't have everything, but it's an improvement.

[Happy Face 29]

A private company could be asked to run a huge database containing details of all telephone calls, emails and internet use, it has been reported.

 

The option to tender out the management of the database will be included in a consultation paper to be published next month, according to the Guardian.

 

The Home Office said police had to keep up with technical advances and there would be wide consultation on the plan.

Critics have said the idea poses a serious threat to civil liberties.

 

Former director of public prosecutions Sir Ken Macdonald reiterated his opposition to the plan in light of the Guardian's report, dismissing official claims that additional legal assurances would ensure the information is not misused.

 

He told the paper: "All history tells us that reassurances like these are worthless in the long run. In the first security crisis the locks would loosen."

 

The database, which critics claim would cost up to £12bn, is not intended to record the content of communications, but only the details of internet sites visited and what emails and telephone calls have been made, to whom and at what times.

 

Currently the information has to be requested from communications companies and internet service providers, but it is not always readily available.

 

A Home Office spokesman said: "The communications revolution has been rapid in this country and the way in which we collect communications data needs to change so that law enforcement agencies can maintain their ability to tackle serious crime and terrorism.

 

"To ensure that we keep up with technological advances we intend to consult widely on proposals in the New Year.

 

"We have been very clear that there are no plans for a database containing the content of emails, texts or conversations."

 

On the issue of private sector involvement in the database, government sources said the consultation had not begun and it was premature to speculate on what the outcome might be.

 

Ministers had initially intended to legislate this year on proposals to create a communications database but dropped a planned bill from December's Queen's Speech in favour of a consultation exercise.

 

Opposition parties have vowed to fight the proposal, describing it as an onslaught on personal privacy.

 

David Davis, the former shadow home secretary, has said a future parliamentary battle over the issue would make this year's debate over extending pre-charge detention to 42 days - an issue which led him to resign his seat - look like a "picnic".

 

The Lib Dems also oppose the plans, describing the idea of the database as "Orwellian".

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7805610.stm

[Kitman 2204]

It's shite like this that helped make emigration an easy decision. It's ironic that a country that doesn't hold back in styling itself as the home of democracy and freedom attempts at every turn to undermine the basic rights of its citizens. It's also ironic that the freedom that Englishmen take for granted to the point of complacency took centuries of protest, struggle and bloodshed to achieve. Those same rights are being slowly suffocated in the name of the war on terror and, more obliquely, crime. What passes many people by is that the state and the police are essentially incompetent and are not to be trusted. This has been shown time and time again - for instance with the Troubles and the galloping miscarriages of justice that were committed, the harrassment of CND and Greenpeace members etc - where the government will follow its own agenda and persecute those that get in the way.

 

There's no doubt that DNA testing has achieved some very good things, but I tend to see this in context of all the other measures that have been taken, to ensure that personal freedom and the right to privacy dies by a thousand cuts. The reason that these rights were fought for in the first place, was that the state could not be trusted not to abuse its power.

 

No such danger in NZ. They couldn't afford the software, let alone the hardware required.

[Fop 1]

It's shite like this that helped make emigration an easy decision. It's ironic that a country that doesn't hold back in styling itself as the home of democracy and freedom attempts at every turn to undermine the basic rights of its citizens. It's also ironic that the freedom that Englishmen take for granted to the point of complacency took centuries of protest, struggle and bloodshed to achieve. Those same rights are being slowly suffocated in the name of the war on terror and, more obliquely, crime. What passes many people by is that the state and the police are essentially incompetent and are not to be trusted. This has been shown time and time again - for instance with the Troubles and the galloping miscarriages of justice that were committed, the harrassment of CND and Greenpeace members etc - where the government will follow its own agenda and persecute those that get in the way.

 

There's no doubt that DNA testing has achieved some very good things, but I tend to see this in context of all the other measures that have been taken, to ensure that personal freedom and the right to privacy dies by a thousand cuts. The reason that these rights were fought for in the first place, was that the state could not be trusted not to abuse its power.

 

No such danger in NZ. They couldn't afford the software, let alone the hardware required.

 

The state can't be trusted certain, and once you involve profit and private companies in it, "trust" simple becomes an issue of profit margins.