Croatia 1-4 (FOUR) England

[trophyshy 7095]

best England performance I have seen in ages involved Angus Deaton and Craig David. Nuff said.

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 4069]

There's a lot made of this but I just don't think we're very good. The players give their all most of the time imo but we're just lacking in too many key areas. In particular upfront. It's no coincidence Spain lost their perennial underachievers tag when they had Torres and Villa upfront.

You say that but England has (arguably) two of the best central midfielders in the world, two top class strikers, Two top class centre halves, at least one left back of genuine quality.

 

That's a very strong spine.

 

Gerrard and Lampard, Rooney and Owen, Terry and Ferdinand and Ashley Cole.

 

Now with a team with that spine, there should have been some performances of note, but there really hasn't been one that leaps out.

 

With the likes of Young, J.Cole, Richards, Barry, Defoe, Agbonlahor on the periphery England should do a lot better than it does, in friendlies and in competitions.

 

I think you are mistaking world class for overrated in more than a few of those cases.

[Tom 14021]

From: Scotland

 

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 4069]

From: Scotland

 

 

I live in Scotland but am from Washington.

[Guest alex]

There's a lot made of this but I just don't think we're very good. The players give their all most of the time imo but we're just lacking in too many key areas. In particular upfront. It's no coincidence Spain lost their perennial underachievers tag when they had Torres and Villa upfront.

You say that but England has (arguably) two of the best central midfielders in the world, two top class strikers, Two top class centre halves, at least one left back of genuine quality.

 

That's a very strong spine.

 

Gerrard and Lampard, Rooney and Owen, Terry and Ferdinand and Ashley Cole.

 

Now with a team with that spine, there should have been some performances of note, but there really hasn't been one that leaps out.

 

With the likes of Young, J.Cole, Richards, Barry, Defoe, Agbonlahor on the periphery England should do a lot better than it does, in friendlies and in competitions.

I disagree Fish, if you're talking about 'top class' I think that needs a bit of clarification and doesn't neccessarily close analysis. Two top centre-halves - yes. But that won't win you stuff on its own. Two top central midfielders - if you're on about Lampard and Gerrard you could argue one of England's major problems is their similarity and the way in which both of them have been accomodated. This has probably had a greater impact on Gerrard (who is probably the more gifted player for me) because he's been moved about because of his versatility. Basically, they don't seem to be able to play together. Moving on to the strikers I assume you mean Owen and Rooney. If both were at their best I'm not sure they would be that complimentary as a partnership. However Owen, good player that he is, is a shadow of his former self and even if recent times when he's scored a few he doesn't look particularly good against the better teams. Fair enough, he needs service, but it's also worth noting he looked better in a more withdrawn role last season, something Rooney is better at and so are, arguably Joe Cole and Crouch. I assume the left-back you're on about is Ashley Cole and, frankly, I don't think he's been the same player since he went to Chelsea. He's still a good player though. The fringe players you talk about are good players but they aren't that special. Another problem is a chronic lack of pace in the side. Playing the likes of Walcott and Downing may have eased this problem I suppose in the last game. Not sure the latter is good enough or the former is ready though.

[trophyshy 7095]

There's a lot made of this but I just don't think we're very good. The players give their all most of the time imo but we're just lacking in too many key areas. In particular upfront. It's no coincidence Spain lost their perennial underachievers tag when they had Torres and Villa upfront.

You say that but England has (arguably) two of the best central midfielders in the world, two top class strikers, Two top class centre halves, at least one left back of genuine quality.

 

That's a very strong spine.

 

Gerrard and Lampard, Rooney and Owen, Terry and Ferdinand and Ashley Cole.

 

Now with a team with that spine, there should have been some performances of note, but there really hasn't been one that leaps out.

 

With the likes of Young, J.Cole, Richards, Barry, Defoe, Agbonlahor on the periphery England should do a lot better than it does, in friendlies and in competitions.

I disagree Fish, if you're talking about 'top class' I think that needs a bit of clarification and doesn't neccessarily close analysis. Two top centre-halves - yes. But that won't win you stuff on its own. Two top central midfielders - if you're on about Lampard and Gerrard you could argue one of England's major problems is their similarity and the way in which both of them have been accomodated. This has probably had a greater impact on Gerrard (who is probably the more gifted player for me) because he's been moved about because of his versatility. Basically, they don't seem to be able to play together. Moving on to the strikers I assume you mean Owen and Rooney. If both were at their best I'm not sure they would be that complimentary as a partnership. However Owen, good player that he is, is a shadow of his former self and even if recent times when he's scored a few he doesn't look particularly good against the better teams. Fair enough, he needs service, but it's also worth noting he looked better in a more withdrawn role last season, something Rooney is better at and so are, arguably Joe Cole and Crouch. I assume the left-back you're on about is Ashley Cole and, frankly, I don't think he's been the same player since he went to Chelsea. He's still a good player though. The fringe players you talk about are good players but they aren't that special. Another problem is a chronic lack of pace in the side. Playing the likes of Walcott and Downing may have eased this problem I suppose in the last game. Not sure the latter is good enough or the former is ready though.

 

 

England's problem is we're shit at paragraphs penallties.

[Tom 14021]

From: Scotland

 

 

I live in Scotland but am from Washington.

 

 

Fair play

[Guest Stevie]

There's a lot made of this but I just don't think we're very good. The players give their all most of the time imo but we're just lacking in too many key areas. In particular upfront. It's no coincidence Spain lost their perennial underachievers tag when they had Torres and Villa upfront.

See that's where I disagree. There was 13 English players in the CL final, all of whom were good enough to be there, heloed by foreigners of course. Take Redknapp's comments. Baros is shit, he said as much, yet he's been a succesful scorer for the Czech Rep, couldn't do it at Pompey, no where near Owen, Rooney or even Defoe's class. We'd rather have Gerrard than any midfielder, Lampard does it regularly for Chelsea, etc etc etc...we have the players, saying we're not good enough is an easy answer to the question but it doesn't hold up to scrutiny, it's an attitude problem, a fear problem, the squad we have might not be good enough, but the best eleven is and is certainly underachieving.

[Guest alex]

I went into it in a bit more detail above. I'm not saying we're poor btw. But apart from the last Euros our recent campaigns have been about par - i.e. last 8, imo anyway. And Baros sorts of highlights what I was getting at in a way. He might not have been a great PL player but he's a good poacher who has benefitted from playing a pretty good Czech team over the last few years and he also formed a very effective partnership with Kohler. He was played to his strengths basically.

[The Fish 11074]

To take Stevies point further, Greece won the Euros with a team of pretty average players. England has better players and no shortage of "squad players" who, if used properly, could give the likes of Joe Cole and Rooney the freedom to play a more fluid role in the national side.

 

I'm not saying England have a right to success, nor am I saying that the players are better than, say, Italy's. I'm saying England should be doing a hell of a lot better in friendlies and competitive games. It's a mentality that runs throughout English football like a stick of Brighton rock. To be honest it's a mentality that runs through British culture as a whole if you ask me. What about me, what do I get, what's in it for me, what about my rights...

 

They haven't played like a team since 96 in my opinion, they've relied on solo performances from Beckham and the likes.

 

Sorry, to clarify, the reason I brought up our "strong spine" was to remove the possibility they've failed because of a lack of talent

Edited September 10, 2008 by The Fish

[Guest Stevie]

I went into it in a bit more detail above. I'm not saying we're poor btw. But apart from the last Euros our recent campaigns have been about par - i.e. last 8, imo anyway. And Baros sorts of highlights what I was getting at in a way. He might not have been a great PL player but he's a good poacher who has benefitted from playing a pretty good Czech team over the last few years and he also formed a very effective partnership with Kohler. He was played to his strengths basically.

People say the Czech's are good, their second best player of the last 15 years wasn't good enough for Manchester United in Karel Poborsky. Individually Spain are a better side than England, as individual players I don't think any other country has as many top notchers as us, like Ferdinand, Gerrard, Joe Cole etc.. If Joe Cole, played for Italy or Germany for instance he'd be their best player imo. There's a very very very fine line between unbelievable success and abject failure in international football as Sven found out in 2002, 2004 and 2006.

[spongebob toonpants 4183]

I reckon that's a big part of my lassitude. They don't care, so why should I?

 

I mean Rooney works hard and Beckham kisses his badge, but I'm not convinced. Euro 96 had (excuse the pun) Lions all over the pitch. Each in their own way giving their soul to England for the duration of the game. Shearer, with his bullish determination, Gazza's wit and guile on the pitch, Pearce's guts and glory. It was clear to everybody that the majority of the team would leave a Terry Butcher smear on that grass. And now? Well now you see Carragher stating quite brazenly his disdain for the shirt, Lampard and Gerrard would amaze me if they performed for their country with the same commitment and vigour they display for their club.

 

I honestly think if England are to be successful there needs to be a change in the way professionals see the national side. We might have Lions, but there's no pride.

 

 

I dislike Carragher as much as the next man, and my hatred for the pool would put Stevie to shame, but I wouldnt criticise Carragher over this. He said on Talksport yesterday (Iwas in a cab who had it on honest) that he supported Everton as a boy and to him Internationals meant players like Lineker leaving because they did well at the World Cup or Neville Southall breaking his ankle with Wales when Everton were in the chase for the Double.

He also said ne would support Scotland because Graeme Sharp was his favourite player. I felt exactly the same, I used to support Scotland over England when Bobby Moncur was playing, Bellamy playing for Wales with dodgy knees not to mention EMO.

 

Added to the general London bias around England I think he just looks at England like we do, and I cant criticise him for that.

 

I dont think you can say anybody has greater pride in playing for England than Beckham, and you mention Shearer who gave up England for Newcastle.

[Guest alex]

Greece massively overachieved though Fish. It wasn't a complete fluke because they had a side that worked well together and had the best ball-retention stats in the tournament (haven't got the figures but Lineker mentioned it on MoTD after the tournament) but that sort of thing is once in a lifetime stuff like Denmark winning it in '92.

[Guest alex]

I went into it in a bit more detail above. I'm not saying we're poor btw. But apart from the last Euros our recent campaigns have been about par - i.e. last 8, imo anyway. And Baros sorts of highlights what I was getting at in a way. He might not have been a great PL player but he's a good poacher who has benefitted from playing a pretty good Czech team over the last few years and he also formed a very effective partnership with Kohler. He was played to his strengths basically.

People say the Czech's are good, their second best player of the last 15 years wasn't good enough for Manchester United in Karel Poborsky. Individually Spain are a better side than England, as individual players I don't think any other country has as many top notchers as us, like Ferdinand, Gerrard, Joe Cole etc.. If Joe Cole, played for Italy or Germany for instance he'd be their best player imo. There's a very very very fine line between unbelievable success and abject failure in international football as Sven found out in 2002, 2004 and 2006.

I was just countering your point about Baros, I wasn't making a case for the Czechs being better individual players the English.

[spongebob toonpants 4183]

I went into it in a bit more detail above. I'm not saying we're poor btw. But apart from the last Euros our recent campaigns have been about par - i.e. last 8, imo anyway. And Baros sorts of highlights what I was getting at in a way. He might not have been a great PL player but he's a good poacher who has benefitted from playing a pretty good Czech team over the last few years and he also formed a very effective partnership with Kohler. He was played to his strengths basically.

People say the Czech's are good, their second best player of the last 15 years wasn't good enough for Manchester United in Karel Poborsky. Individually Spain are a better side than England, as individual players I don't think any other country has as many top notchers as us, like Ferdinand, Gerrard, Joe Cole etc.. If Joe Cole, played for Italy or Germany for instance he'd be their best player imo. There's a very very very fine line between unbelievable success and abject failure in international football as Sven found out in 2002, 2004 and 2006.

 

Thats a much overlooked and very important point. England are portrayed as World Beaters until the point they become abject failures, but the truth is luck and tiny incidents make the difference

[The Fish 11074]

I dont think you can say anybody has greater pride in playing for England than Beckham, and you mention Shearer who gave up England for Newcastle.

difference for me is that Shearer would sweat blood for England when he was fit for them, he knew if he kept playing for England and Newcastle his career would be shorter. So it had to be one or the other and you can hardly play for your national side if you're not playing week in week out in the league. So he moved attention to Newcastle. I don't think he "gave up England for Newcastle" he was just not able to do both.

 

Carragher said he didn't care if he didn't score a penalty (or something like that) because "at least it wasn't for Liverpool"

 

And alex, while you're right about Greece's win being flukey, I still reckon England and the England team suffers from a horrible lack of national pride.

[Fop 1]

Our midfield just doesn't work properly most of the time, and Rooney just doesn't seem to work (i.e. clicking, not effort) at international level, at least in how he is being played (and we have no Ronaldo).

 

We have reasonable players, but no obvious first team.

[trophyshy 7095]

English people have little solid identity anyway, which dilutes pride/patriotism. Add in a sprinkling of second generation immigrants who have suffered racism at the hands of indigenous english, thus being alienated, and you have a team, and a nation, which does not feel especially great about itself.

 

Lead them with a foreign coach/prime minister, that's BOUND to work.

Edited September 10, 2008 by trophyshy

[Guest alex]

English people have little solid identity anyway, which dilutes pride/patriotism. Add in a sprinkling of second generation immigrants who have suffered racism at the hands of indigenous english, thus being alienated, and you have a team, and a nation, which does not feel especially great about itself.

 

Lead them with a foreign coach, that's BOUND to work.

Aye, there's something to all that, I agree. Mind, Steve McLaren and Big Sam were the front runners last time out.

[trophyshy 7095]

English people have little solid identity anyway, which dilutes pride/patriotism. Add in a sprinkling of second generation immigrants who have suffered racism at the hands of indigenous english, thus being alienated, and you have a team, and a nation, which does not feel especially great about itself.

 

Lead them with a foreign coach, that's BOUND to work.

Aye, there's something to all that, I agree. Mind, Steve McLaren and Big Sam were the front runners last time out.

 

 

Well they're just feckless, and there's no excusing that.

[Guest alex]

English people have little solid identity anyway, which dilutes pride/patriotism. Add in a sprinkling of second generation immigrants who have suffered racism at the hands of indigenous english, thus being alienated, and you have a team, and a nation, which does not feel especially great about itself.

 

Lead them with a foreign coach, that's BOUND to work.

Aye, there's something to all that, I agree. Mind, Steve McLaren and Big Sam were the front runners last time out.

 

 

Well they're just feckless, and there's no excusing that.

I just meant that a foreign coach was the best option, given the alternatives.

[The Fish 11074]

I'm not saying now, but in a few years I reckon Southgate could be a decent shout for the job. He's got Boro' playing some good football and certainly isn't afraid to put his faith in youth.

 

Hopefully his experience in the National side could scare the shit out of the lads...

 

I'd also suggest he takes the players away in the summers where there aren't international competitions for a "team building" camp. Get them so that they give a shit about each other.

[Guest alex]

I'm not saying now, but in a few years I reckon Southgate could be a decent shout for the job. He's got Boro' playing some good football and certainly isn't afraid to put his faith in youth.

 

Hopefully his experience in the National side could scare the shit out of the lads...

 

I'd also suggest he takes the players away in the summers where there aren't international competitions for a "team building" camp. Get them so that they give a shit about each other.

Hit on something else there. The England job is one for a 'wily old fox' who's seen a lot in football and can call on that experience when needed. Not someone, like last time round, who is a relative novice.

[trophyshy 7095]

English people have little solid identity anyway, which dilutes pride/patriotism. Add in a sprinkling of second generation immigrants who have suffered racism at the hands of indigenous english, thus being alienated, and you have a team, and a nation, which does not feel especially great about itself.

 

Lead them with a foreign coach, that's BOUND to work.

Aye, there's something to all that, I agree. Mind, Steve McLaren and Big Sam were the front runners last time out.

 

 

Well they're just feckless, and there's no excusing that.

I just meant that a foreign coach was the best option, given the alternatives.

 

yeah, further evidence of the state of the english game. Which came first the foreign players or the foreign coaches?

 

Rhetorical obviously. It's a mess really, I only envisage further English decline.

 

But the point is, I think, critical. Pride and passion are missing more than anything else. How the hell is a foreign coach going to instill that?

 

Basically England has exactly the same problem as Newcastle, we need an inspirational manager who understands the team and the fans and the significance.....except at Newcastle our apathy has yet to kick in.

[Guest alex]

Another part of the problem is the clubs' self-interest. This was always the case but I think it's worse now. This will obviously be down to the money etc. involved in the club game, especially the big four / CL teams but the foreign coaches / managers running those sides must be a factor too - why should they give a shit about England?

Edited September 10, 2008 by alex