Fop 1 Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 How a Shia ritual ended in court By Caroline Cheetham BBC News Men ritually cut themselves on the 10th day of Muharram in Kabul A Muslim has been found guilty of child cruelty after forcing two boys to beat themselves during a religious ceremony. The practice has caused controversy in Britain, but this is the first case of its kind to be brought before a UK court. Husayn - the son of the Prophet Muhammad - and members of his family were slaughtered during the battle of Karbala in Iraq 1,400 years ago. Ever since that day devout Shia Muslims have commemorated the tragedy with a month-long period of mourning called Muharram. On the 10th day of Muharram, believers relive the tragedy through the Ashura ceremony. Millions take part in prayers and processions, and some participate in a traditional flagellation ceremony called "zanjeer zani". Using a long-bladed whip called a zanjeer, men beat themselves on the back until they bleed. The ritual is not obligatory, but many believe it expresses their grief and helps them to re-enact the pain suffered by Husayn and his relatives. Like many devout Shia Muslims brought up in Pakistan, Syed Zaidi has self-flagellated during Ashura since he was a young boy. He told Manchester Crown Court that children as young as seven flogged themselves with the zanjeer during the ceremony in his homeland. Children 'protected' In this country the laws are very different from those in Pakistan. If you want children to perform this act, then take them to Pakistan Prosecutor Andrew Nuttall Man convicted over Shia flogging In January this year Zaidi took part in "zanjeer zani" at a centre in Levenshulme, but he then allowed two brothers aged 13 and 15 to do the same. In the UK the law states that children under the age of 16 should be protected from harm by adults. Prosecutor Andrew Nuttall told the jury: "In this country children under the age of 16 will be protected under the law from harm. Beyond the age of 16 it is a matter for them, but a line has to be drawn in the sand and that line is 16. "In this country the laws are very different from those in Pakistan. If you want children to perform this act, then take them to Pakistan." The case is the first of its kind to be brought before a British court, but it is not the first time police and prosecutors have been made aware that children are involved in "zanjeer zani" in the UK. Cases in Bradford have been investigated and referred to Child Protection Officers, but charges were never brought. Similar cases have also been reported in Greater Manchester, but Crown Prosecution Service lawyers decided prosecuting was not in the public interest because the children involved were willing participants. The ceremony is very emotional and people get very involved. At that particular time of high emotion it is very difficult to say no to a child who wants to do it Safbar Zia Jaffria Islamic Centre The jury in Manchester has been told that children cannot consent to self-harm. Both boys admitted they wanted to take part in the ceremony, but Mr Nuttall said children under the age of 16 could not consent to harming themselves, and if they did they had to be protected from themselves by adults. Shias make up about 10% of the world's Muslim population and not all worshippers take part in the all-male ritual of "zanjeer zani". The Shia community in Manchester know the practice is controversial. Safbar Zia, the general secretary of the Jaffria Islamic Centre in Levenshulme, said senior members of the community now tried to encourage believers to donate blood as a sign of mourning rather than beat themselves. But he admitted many men who become very emotional during the ceremony still beat themselves and if children wanted to take part too they were not stopped. He said: "How can you stop a child who wants to do this for his faith? We cannot discourage or stop them. "The ceremony is very emotional and people get very involved. At that particular time of high emotion it is very difficult to say no to a child who wants to do it. "We are trying to educate people but it will take time. We can't change things overnight." http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7583845.stm Fecking hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob W 0 Posted August 29, 2008 Share Posted August 29, 2008 Mad!! same as christians who nail themselves to crosses at Easter - and a lot of Spanish folk flog themselves Opus Dei wear pain inflictors under their clothes............................ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stevie Posted August 29, 2008 Share Posted August 29, 2008 THEY really are animals, it's pointless even trying to impose democracy on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob W 0 Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 Opus Dei? Couldn't agree more.................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holden McGroin 6975 Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 Opus Dei? Couldn't agree more.................... Been reading the da vinci code recently Robert? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acrossthepond 901 Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 THEY really are animals, it's pointless even trying to impose democracy on them. In the technical sense, this post is 100% correct. They are members of the animal kingdom (or whatever it's called nowadays) and it's pointless (as well as oxymoronic) to try to impose a political philosophy based on self-determination on any group of people, since in doing so you have robbed them of their self-determination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fop 1 Posted August 30, 2008 Author Share Posted August 30, 2008 THEY really are animals, it's pointless even trying to impose democracy on them. In the technical sense, this post is 100% correct. They are members of the animal kingdom (or whatever it's called nowadays) and it's pointless (as well as oxymoronic) to try to impose a political philosophy based on self-determination on any group of people, since in doing so you have robbed them of their self-determination. Child abuse is "self-determination" now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 THEY really are animals, it's pointless even trying to impose democracy on them. In the technical sense, this post is 100% correct. They are members of the animal kingdom (or whatever it's called nowadays) and it's pointless (as well as oxymoronic) to try to impose a political philosophy based on self-determination on any group of people, since in doing so you have robbed them of their self-determination. Child abuse is "self-determination" now? Tbf acrossthepond chomped on a deliberately provocative yet open to interpretation post by Stevie. And Stevie is good at doing that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ketsbaia 0 Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 THEY really are animals, it's pointless even trying to impose democracy on them. THEY can do what the fuck they want, just as long as they've got the Vanish to get the blood stains out of their clothes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob W 0 Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 Opus Dei? Couldn't agree more.................... Been reading the da vinci code recently Robert? naaa - never read it - rip off of "holy Blood Holy Grail " anyway whatever the judge reckoned started reading about OD when looking at fascism in Spain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Kenneth Noisewater 0 Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 Opus Dei? Couldn't agree more.................... Man-ish transport minister Ruth Kelly is a member. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeazesMag 0 Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 Mad!! same as christians who nail themselves to crosses at Easter - and a lot of Spanish folk flog themselves Opus Dei wear pain inflictors under their clothes............................ keep letting them all in, we are all brothers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 11098 Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 Mad!! same as christians who nail themselves to crosses at Easter - and a lot of Spanish folk flog themselves Opus Dei wear pain inflictors under their clothes............................ keep them all out, because all foreigners are the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob W 0 Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 Mad!! same as christians who nail themselves to crosses at Easter - and a lot of Spanish folk flog themselves Opus Dei wear pain inflictors under their clothes............................ keep letting them all in, we are all brothers. indeed we are, indeed we are brother Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fop 1 Posted September 3, 2008 Author Share Posted September 3, 2008 More "self-determination" I guess. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7593522.stm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Carr's Gloves 4095 Posted September 3, 2008 Share Posted September 3, 2008 Opus Dei? Couldn't agree more.................... Been reading the da vinci code recently Robert? naaa - never read it - rip off of "holy Blood Holy Grail " anyway whatever the judge reckoned started reading about OD when looking at fascism in Spain And at least one of them is in the government. The Da Vinci code is so badly researched it is unbelievable. Check out the bit where they discuss army chevrons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted September 4, 2008 Share Posted September 4, 2008 Opus Dei? Couldn't agree more.................... Been reading the da vinci code recently Robert? naaa - never read it - rip off of "holy Blood Holy Grail " anyway whatever the judge reckoned started reading about OD when looking at fascism in Spain The Da Vinci code is so badly written it is unbelievable. FYPTMF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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