How much money

[LeazesMag 0]

will it take Souness to match the top 5 position or higher that we were under Bobby Robson.

 

Are we in danger of him cleaning the club out of money ?

 

Or has Shepherd not splashed enough cash ?

[Guest Sima]

He'll spend another £15m in January and still not make it leaving the next manager with nothing like Robson had in his first couple of years.

[NJS 4411]

I find the "he's spent £50m" as fatuous as Shepherd's "£200m spent since we took over".

 

Bobby spent a lot of money of that squad - he didn't fashion it out of thin air or the academy. He also didn't have to spend big to "replace" Shearer (counting Owen) which has happened to be during Souness' tenure.

 

I also think the top 3/4/5 clubs are further ahead than they were 3 or 4 years ago.

 

 

The squad still needs adding to - whether thats by Souness or A. N Other - its still only Bellamy whose exit I regret and I do believe we have a better team than 2 or 3 years ago but then again that team wasn't good enough anyway.

 

As to the danger you mention first of all I think Shepherd isn't that stupid. At the worst he won't endanger his "pension fund" as someone put it by overspending.

 

I would also say that the unjudged Luque aside there has been no "waste" as is implied in your post ("cleaning out").

[NJS 4411]

He'll spend another £15m in January and still not make it leaving the next manager with nothing like Robson had in his first couple of years.

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Robson was left a lot of good players but we still endured 20 months of utter shite.

 

(Given, Goma, Lee, Solano, Dyer, Shearer, Speed, Ferguson (when fit))

[Guest Sima]

Speed was a hate figure amongst fans when Robson took over tbh.

 

Dyer was and still is, shite.

[Optimistic Nut 188]

Speed was a hate figure amongst fans when Robson took over tbh.

 

Dyer was and still is, shite.

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He then wasted his first £10m (Cort & Bassedas).

[Renton 21985]

He'll spend another £15m in January and still not make it leaving the next manager with nothing like Robson had in his first couple of years.

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Robson was left a lot of good players but we still endured 20 months of utter shite.

 

(Given, Goma, Lee, Solano, Dyer, Shearer, Speed, Ferguson (when fit))

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Those 20 months of utter shite were Nirvana compare to what we have seen so far under Souness's reign. And under Robson we knew we had a manager with the pedigree to turn us around. With Souness there is absolutely no reason to think he can.

[Renton 21985]

Bobby spent a lot of money of that squad - he didn't fashion it out of thin air or the academy. He also didn't have to spend big to "replace" Shearer (counting Owen) which has happened to be during Souness' tenure.

 

I also think the top 3/4/5 clubs are further ahead than they were 3 or 4 years ago.

 

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I find it quite amusing you are defending Souness by saying he's had to replace Shearer. He hasn't, he's still playing for us! That expense is still to come - next year.

 

As for your top 3/4/5 comment, I think you must be living on a different planet from me. Arsenal and ManU aren't a patch on what they were a few years back, and I wouldn't say Liverpool are much better either. One thing is for certain though - we are nowhere near as good as we were. I dare you to refute this.

[LeazesMag 0]

I find the "he's spent £50m" as fatuous as Shepherd's "£200m spent since we took over".

 

they are both true figures. Unless you dilute it by talking about "net" figures and taking sales into account. But - he has by defnition, like any manager, sold players he considers to be not good enough - and no, there is absolutely NO other reason for selling a footballer that doesn't want to leave - then given the license to spend 50m quid to build what he wants. The figure of 200m or whatever it is since 1997 is the same. It is money the managers have been given license to, to invest in players to improve the football team / squad.

 

Bobby spent a lot of money of that squad - he didn't fashion it out of thin air or the academy. He also didn't have to spend big to "replace" Shearer (counting Owen) which has happened to be during Souness' tenure.

 

I also think the top 3/4/5 clubs are further ahead than they were 3 or 4 years ago.

 

we were 3rd, 2 years ago, and ahead of Liverpool, before Souness came in we were only 4 points behind them, a season and 8 games ago.

 

The squad still needs adding to - whether thats by Souness or A. N Other - its still only Bellamy whose exit I regret and I do believe we have a better team than 2 or 3 years ago but then again that team wasn't good enough anyway.

 

As to the danger you mention first of all I think Shepherd isn't that stupid.

 

hopefully not, but I think Luque will turn out like Boumsong, overpriced. Panic buys in short. You have to buy and sell well, at proper prices.

 

I would also say that the unjudged Luque aside there has been no "waste" as is implied in your post ("cleaning out").

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we will see. It's results and league position that count. Already, the position we were in last May would not have been tolerated by Arsenal and Liverpool so those who do tolerate it are lowering their standards IMO.

[NJS 4411]

I'm not defending Souness on the Shearer thing Renton, I'm just pointing out that this "event" is out of the ordinary when it comes to considering spending under any manager. I also disagree that the early Bobby days were any better than the last year - I consider them to be the same thing - a turnover period for a new manager.

 

Net is the only thing that counts for me LM - the "wasted" £8m on Boumsong (not you but others say that) was for me just the Woodgate fee. You decry Souness for getting peanuts for Bellamy and Robert (their true worth?) but I notice you don't praise him for getting more than you thought Jenas was worth. I'm not an accountant but despite Sheperd's BS his bottom line will be the net figure which as HTT has pointed out isn't that great when a couple of years are taken into account even including the recent spree. Nearly all managers operate on an in/out basis - the money they get does depend on fees received and in this summers case wages saved so to simplify it as "money given to invest" is simplistic.

 

Forgoto add for Renton on your point on Arsenal etc: Don't forget that we finished above Chelsea who are now "untouchable". Also teams like Bolton, Boro and Spurs are showing signs of being a lot better - I'm not belittling the 4/3/5 finishes but I do think we were well timed in having that team in those 3 years in relation to the other teams - thst what I was trying to get at.

Edited October 2, 2005 by NJS

[LeazesMag 0]

I'm not defending Souness on the Shearer thing Renton, I'm just pointing out that this "event" is out of the ordinary when it comes to considering spending under any manager. I also disagree that the early Bobby days were any better than the last year - I consider them to be the same thing - a turnover period for a new manager.

 

Net is the only thing that counts for me LM - the "wasted" £8m on Boumsong (not you but others say that) was for me just the Woodgate fee. You decry Souness for getting peanuts for Bellamy and Robert (their true worth?) but I notice you don't praise him for getting more than you thought Jenas was worth. I'm not an accountant but despite Sheperd's BS his bottom line will be the net figure which as HTT has pointed out isn't that great when a couple of years are taken into account even including the recent spree. Nearly all managers operate on an in/out basis - the money they get does depend on fees received and in this summers case wages saved so to simplify it as "money given to invest" is simplistic.

 

Forgoto add for Renton on your point on Arsenal etc: Don't forget that we finished above Chelsea who are now "untouchable". Also teams like Bolton, Boro and Spurs are showing signs of being a lot better - I'm not belittling the 4/3/5 finishes but I do think we were well timed in having that team in those 3 years in relation to the other teams - thst what I was trying to get at.

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hmmm...i have actually said he has done very well getting rid of Jeanarse for the fee, and for getting Parker and Emre, however I don't think it excuses him at all for underselling Bellamy for instance, it's his job to make good deals and let other clubs worry about getting ripped off, so long as it isn't us.

 

As for net figure. In 40 odd years of supporting Newcastle I have never heard this "net" figure used to show how much money a manager of any club has "had", "spent" or whatever. Remember all the cockney twats in the press taking delight in Keegan spending "60m and winning nowt". Well, he actually had a "net" expenditure of about 20m quid, all of which was self generated through being successful, and even the 60m was in fact 57, of which the 15m paid for Shearer, was AFTER we had came 2nd in the premiership, leaving a total of 42m to take the club from oblivion to 90 minutes from the title.

 

All fancy theories and figure juggling.

 

Much more straightforward to say the manager has invested in 50m quids worth of players to improve the club, in his opinion. And yes, Keegan invested 42m in 5 years.

 

As for Bellamy being sold for his true worth, if you think that Luque is worth 1 and a half Bellamys, or he is worth less than Jeanarse, less then Emile Heskey, less than Carl Cort when we bought him from Wimbldedon, less than Boumsong, less than Steve McManaman when he left Liverpool, less than Fatty Viduka when he was at Leeds, Pretty much on a par with Diego Forlan, that Macaroni bloke at the smoggies, Freddie kanoute, to mention a few, .......get the drift !

[NJS 4411]

I know its the media who over simplify things with money spent but I expect fans to be a little more realistic.

 

Its not me who doesn't think Bellamy was worth any more its other clubs. I know there was a factor of interested clubs knowing we were "desperate" but at the same time you'd think even at 4 or 5m there would be people willing to snap our hands off.

 

Craig Bellamy is a good player but leaving aside everything else I think what we should look at is the fact that we did become that reliant him on the first place. Its like the Shearer situation I have referred to in this thread where theres a load of hype about "replacing Alan Shearer" - what we should be doing is moving away from a reliance on one man no matter who that is and more towards a bigger picture.

 

I'd also add that I couldn't help noticing Bellamy's latest injury is his knees(s) - again.

[LeazesMag 0]

I know its the media who over simplify things with money spent but I expect fans to be a little more realistic.

 

Its not me who doesn't think Bellamy was worth any more its other clubs. I know there was a factor of interested clubs knowing we were "desperate" but at the same time you'd think even at 4 or 5m there would be people willing to snap our hands off.

 

Craig Bellamy is a good player but leaving aside everything else I think what we should look at is the fact that we did become that reliant him on the first place. Its like the Shearer situation I have referred to in this thread where theres a load of hype about "replacing Alan Shearer" - what we should be doing is moving away from a reliance on one man no matter who that is and more towards a bigger picture.

 

I'd also add that I couldn't help noticing Bellamy's latest injury is his knees(s) - again.

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the one thing, or consolation if you like about losing Bellamy, is that because of the nature of his game he is susceptible to knee problems. If he had stayed at Newcastle and had more serious knee problems then it would be bad news of course for both him and the club, but we've had it before. I saw Tony Green in his prime.

[NJS 4411]

the one thing, or consolation if you like about losing Bellamy, is that because of the nature of his game he is susceptible to knee problems. If he had stayed at Newcastle and had more serious knee problems then it would be bad news of course for both him and the club, but we've had it before. I saw Tony Green in his prime.

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I just remember him - mostly my Dad and Brother mourning his loss. The saddest thing is that as far as I know it would be a simple op nowadays.

[LeazesMag 0]

the one thing, or consolation if you like about losing Bellamy, is that because of the nature of his game he is susceptible to knee problems. If he had stayed at Newcastle and had more serious knee problems then it would be bad news of course for both him and the club, but we've had it before. I saw Tony Green in his prime.

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I just remember him - mostly my Dad and Brother mourning his loss. The saddest thing is that as far as I know it would be a simple op nowadays.

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I think nowadays it is an op which can be fixed, the cruciate ligament is the one that also finished Brian Clough, and I think is what did for Gazza too. It might in some cases leave it weaker, and you may not survive your career if you did it twice but it happened to him and he was finished. He was all about twisting and turning, quickly, and this sort of thing is crucial to players who play like that.

 

At his testimonial he hobbled off at half time. One of the saddest things I've ever seen on a football field, a great player and my all time Newcastle hero.

 

I was playing once at Kenton Bank Foot, and he used to come and watch, with his boxer dog. The ball went out for a throw and he kicked it back at me and said "go on Steve".....I nearly bloody fainted

 

I still have the programme of his testimonial, the same one that PL uses in his avatar somewhere.

[shakermaker 0]

i'm surprised no-one has pointed out that although we finished 5th,we were going backwards quickly.

[LeazesMag 0]

i'm surprised no-one has pointed out that although we finished 5th,we were going backwards quickly.

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but we DID finish 5th.

 

If we were going backwards quickly, why didn't you tell us at the time ?

 

Also - pretty much the majority feeling too, AT THE TIME, was that we were underachieving when we were 5th. Believe it or not, that is why Bobby Robson was removed from his job.

 

There is only one thing worse than someone who uses hindsight, or changes their spots, and that is someone who puts on rose tinted specs © to go with it

[shakermaker 0]

i'm surprised no-one has pointed out that although we finished 5th,we were going backwards quickly.

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but we DID finish 5th.

 

If we were going backwards quickly, why didn't you tell us at the time ?

 

Also - pretty much the majority feeling too, AT THE TIME, was that we were underachieving when we were 5th. Believe it or not, that is why Bobby Robson was removed from his job.

 

There is only one thing worse than someone who uses hindsight, or changes their spots, and that is someone who puts on rose tinted specs © to go with it

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sums you up really,unable to change your mind,and theres nowt wrong with changing your spots,if you understand you were wrong.something you could never do...its not being right,its winning the argument that matters eh ?

[LeazesMag 0]

i'm surprised no-one has pointed out that although we finished 5th,we were going backwards quickly.

42078[/snapback]

 

but we DID finish 5th.

 

If we were going backwards quickly, why didn't you tell us at the time ?

 

Also - pretty much the majority feeling too, AT THE TIME, was that we were underachieving when we were 5th. Believe it or not, that is why Bobby Robson was removed from his job.

 

There is only one thing worse than someone who uses hindsight, or changes their spots, and that is someone who puts on rose tinted specs © to go with it

42094[/snapback]

 

sums you up really,unable to change your mind,and theres nowt wrong with changing your spots,if you understand you were wrong.something you could never do...its not being right,its winning the argument that matters eh ?

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I'm not changing my mind, the league is what I'm looking at, and the league doesn't lie.

 

As I said, if we were going backwards [all the way to 14th], you should have said so at the time. If you had, you would have been the only one ...

[shakermaker 0]

that ploy again eh leazes,claiming someone will be "the only one" like you did the other week when someone said we were right to get rid of bellamy,tried to claim he'd be the only one to think that when you know that on the other board quite a lot thought the same thing.

 

oh and quite a few of us did say so at the time,some(not me, to be honest) were even saying it at the start of that season,remember bolton and brum at home.

Edited October 3, 2005 by shakermaker

[LeazesMag 0]

that ploy again eh leazes,claiming someone will be "the only one" like you did the other week when someone said we were right to get rid of bellamy,tried to claim he'd be the only one to think that when you know that on the other board quite a lot thought the same thing.

 

oh and quite a few of us did say so at the time,some(not me, to be honest) were even saying it at the start of that season,remember bolton and brum at home.

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which other board do you refer to here ?

 

I do not recally ANYONE saying Bellamy should go "because he was a bad influence" until Souness said so. On the contrary, a do recall a fair amount of people saying he would get rid of our flair players and turn us into a team clogging their way through games etc etc...and lower down the league.

 

Ironic that this is what has happened, and people like you are now re-writing the script, now this sort of thing is EXACTLY what I call rose tinted specs ©

 

Stick with the first prediction, it was the best one.

 

There were people who said Bellamy should have been sold a few years ago because he "wasn't scoring 20 goals"...which was pointed out to be pretty daft seeing as he was injured, and even when he did play he was largely not fully fit and in pain [consider that when those who say he "didn't want to play for the club"] and also he wasn't an out and out goalscorer but a support striker who made things happen, and happened to be the ideal partner for Shearer getting older and being less mobile.

 

However, they mostly disappeared sharpish when we qualified for the Champions League again and he scored the winner in Rotterdam. And again at the beginning of last season, when he was without any shadow of doubt the best player at the club until master fuckwit decided to play him out of position, "for the good of the club". Stupid shite.

Edited October 3, 2005 by LeazesMag

[shakermaker 0]

what i was referring to was us going backwards when we finished 5th(i remember quite a few calling for robson to go at the end of that season) but according to you i'm the only one.

[LeazesMag 0]

what i was referring to was us going backwards when we finished 5th(i remember quite a few calling for robson to go at the end of that season) but according to you i'm the only one.

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what I am referring to, is the fact that, if you thought we were at the beginning of a huge slide down to 14th you should have said so, if you had done you would have been the only one to make such an amazingly correct prediction.

 

Because, most of us realised we were at a crossroads, because we thought we were underachieving.

 

If you had made such a spot on prediction and had now correctly claimed so, you would quite rightly have got a huge round of applause for such foresight. Perhaps if I had seen it myself as well I wouldn't be so hard on Souness.

 

And no I'm not taking the piss ....

[shakermaker 0]

why does it have to be that sort of prediction,I and quite a few others saw massive problems even when finishing 5th(personally i hoped robson would bring in better players,others wanted robson out then,now here is the hindsight,they were right).didn't guess on a position as i didnt realise i had to on order to illustrate what i could see happening.

[LeazesMag 0]

why does it have to be that sort of prediction,I and quite a few others saw massive problems even when finishing 5th(personally i hoped robson would bring in better players,others wanted robson out then,now here is the hindsight,they were right).didn't guess on a position as i didnt realise i had to on order to illustrate what i could see happening.

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nah, a team of good players, needing freshening up. Any team that finishes 5th isn't far away from 4th, 3rd etc...just the right players in the right areas thats all.

 

It's all about standards, we are Newcastle, even during a re-building process we should still be in with a shout of europe. Those players were a good set of players, for the most part, or they wouldn't have finished 5th. Souness said it himself.

 

Any sensible manager wouldn't have disturbed it much, made a couple of buys and slowly made his own changes. Instead the fool came charging in with a battering ram to show everyone who the boss was and screwed it all up. And cost us a fortune in the process which just wasn't necessary.

 

Over and above that, any team under Souness will clog their way through games, argue with referees, and lack positive outlook. All of his teams have done. He's a 3rd rate manager who if he hadn't managed Rangers and gained a reputation on the back of winning an easy league with one of the only 2 clubs that exist would have disappeared from football management years and years ago.

Edited October 3, 2005 by LeazesMag