Privatise the NHS

[Fop 1]

Perhaps but that pre-supposes that removing the required money from other areas of the NHS/public sector wouldn't more than cancel out any votes gained over such an initiative. Which takes me back to what I've said previously. You can't 'magically', as you put it, make the money appear. It's a finite source and that is why difficult decisions have to be made. It's not a question of what is right and what is wrong morally. That's a massive oversimplification, it's a balancing act, as I said before.

No personally I suspect it's a very cynical targeting of money at those that will benefit them most (smokers being a huge labour demographic for example).

 

But it's not really a case of making money magically appear (although with oil rises recent that's probably what they are thinking at the moment), more prioritising...... money can always be found to fight another war for instance (although admittedly they tend to cut corners as much as they can there too).

[Guest alex]

Your logic really is all over the place fop. I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.

Re: the above though: I don't really see how providing a few nicotine patches etc. is anything like dementia care. It's really comparing apples to oranges to borrow one of your favourite sayings. Also, I think the general treatment of smokers under Labour, including the proposed further plans, more or less amounts to victimisation. So, you could argue, they are alienating the demographic you say they are targetting. Not that I think Labour are too bothered with their traditional heartlands, since they are not where general elections are won and lost. Anyway, I digress...

Edited July 1, 2008 by alex

[Fop 1]

Your logic really is all over the place fop. I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.

Re: the above though: I don't really see how providing a few nicotine patches etc. is anything like dementia care. It's really comparing apples to oranges to borrow one of your favourite sayings. Also, I think the general treatment of smokers under Labour, including the proposed further plans, more or less amounts to victimisation. So, you could argue, they are alienating the demographic you say they are targetting. Not that I think Labour are too bothered with their traditional heartlands, since they are not where general elections are won and lost. Anyway, I digress...

 

Long term palliative care maybe, but in at least one context drugs have been removed (recently) due to cost issue, perhaps quietly literally to allow more nicotine patches.

[Fop 1]

When you read this you can see where a lot of pressure is coming from.

 

 

Not surprisingly it's greed driving it.

[ChezGiven 0]

When you read this you can see where a lot of pressure is coming from.

 

 

Not surprisingly it's greed driving it.

 

Its not greed, its the basic issue of scarcity of resources forcing people to make choices. Now, as predicted, the choices have become completely unpalatable, something has to give.

 

That article makes most of the points i've been making since they announced the ability to make top-ups anyway.

[Fop 1]

When you read this you can see where a lot of pressure is coming from.

 

 

Not surprisingly it's greed driving it.

 

Its not greed, its the basic issue of scarcity of resources forcing people to make choices. Now, as predicted, the choices have become completely unpalatable, something has to give.

 

That article makes most of the points i've been making since they announced the ability to make top-ups anyway.

 

 

No it's the drug marketing model, which sort of falls down when people (even desperate dying people) don't buy your premium drugs.

 

 

Which is an interesting issue in and of itself - as you get more and more expensive drugs for more and more minor improvement what happens? Clearly the drug companies cannot just keep selling older drugs, they HAVE to put out new ones even if the differences are very minor clinically.

 

 

Also the more money that becomes available the more the drug companies will charge - it's like the idiocy of thinking you'll save money with saving power in the long term, when in fact if everyone slashes their power consumption by 30% the power companies will simply quickly put the amount charged up to cover the difference and the consumer will end up paying the same for using less.

[Park Life 71]

"It's really a moral decision, whether as a society we decide we want to stay in all this together or we want start going our own ways," Dickson believes.

"There is no sign yet that the British people want to go their own way."

[Guest alex]

I'd say 'society' (a misnomer perhaps) has already gone its own way. Stuff like the NHS is arguably one of the last bits of veneer hiding that fact.

[Park Life 71]

I'd say 'society' (a misnomer perhaps) has already gone its own way. Stuff like the NHS is arguably one of the last bits of veneer hiding that fact.

 

When Mrs P lived with me in England and had to go to the hospital when she cut her hand quite badly, she was really panicky babbling about insurance etc. I kept telling her it was free and she didn't believe me. It was quite a proud moment when she came back from the hospital and rang her mum enthusing about how she was treated quickly and how they laughed at her when she asked about payment.

 

NHS forever.

[Fop 1]

Not belong before the accountants are called in and given lethal injection guns for old women.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7485455.stm

[Guest alex]

I'd say 'society' (a misnomer perhaps) has already gone its own way. Stuff like the NHS is arguably one of the last bits of veneer hiding that fact.

 

When Mrs P lived with me in England and had to go to the hospital when she cut her hand quite badly, she was really panicky babbling about insurance etc. I kept telling her it was free and she didn't believe me. It was quite a proud moment when she came back from the hospital and rang her mum enthusing about how she was treated quickly and how they laughed at her when she asked about payment.

 

NHS forever.

That's a nice anecdote but if (as I'm presuming is the case) the opposite wouldn't have been reciprocated in Germany, it just makes us mugs in my eyes.

[Fop 1]

I'd say 'society' (a misnomer perhaps) has already gone its own way. Stuff like the NHS is arguably one of the last bits of veneer hiding that fact.

 

When Mrs P lived with me in England and had to go to the hospital when she cut her hand quite badly, she was really panicky babbling about insurance etc. I kept telling her it was free and she didn't believe me. It was quite a proud moment when she came back from the hospital and rang her mum enthusing about how she was treated quickly and how they laughed at her when she asked about payment.

 

NHS forever.

That's a nice anecdote but if (as I'm presuming is the case) the opposite wouldn't have been reciprocated in Germany, it just makes us mugs in my eyes.

 

They'd have made him sign a contract in his own blood, laughing all the time.

[Park Life 71]

I'd say 'society' (a misnomer perhaps) has already gone its own way. Stuff like the NHS is arguably one of the last bits of veneer hiding that fact.

 

When Mrs P lived with me in England and had to go to the hospital when she cut her hand quite badly, she was really panicky babbling about insurance etc. I kept telling her it was free and she didn't believe me. It was quite a proud moment when she came back from the hospital and rang her mum enthusing about how she was treated quickly and how they laughed at her when she asked about payment.

 

NHS forever.

That's a nice anecdote but if (as I'm presuming is the case) the opposite wouldn't have been reciprocated in Germany, it just makes us mugs in my eyes.

 

It's the same here, I have a NHS Euro card. For normal stuff it's pretty much free. I've been once to get an inhaler (last year) free. Infact they offered me two.

 

For more complicated things there would probably be a charge but with a massive discount. I could always nip back to England anyway as I do for check ups.

 

We have agreements in place with most of Europe as part of some obscure EU legislation.

Edited July 3, 2008 by Park Life

[Guest alex]

I'd say 'society' (a misnomer perhaps) has already gone its own way. Stuff like the NHS is arguably one of the last bits of veneer hiding that fact.

 

When Mrs P lived with me in England and had to go to the hospital when she cut her hand quite badly, she was really panicky babbling about insurance etc. I kept telling her it was free and she didn't believe me. It was quite a proud moment when she came back from the hospital and rang her mum enthusing about how she was treated quickly and how they laughed at her when she asked about payment.

 

NHS forever.

That's a nice anecdote but if (as I'm presuming is the case) the opposite wouldn't have been reciprocated in Germany, it just makes us mugs in my eyes.

 

It's the same here, I have a NHS Euro card. For normal stuff it's pretty much free. I've been once to get an inhaler (last year) free. Infact they offered me two.

 

For more complicated things there would probably be a charge but with a massive discount. I could always nip back to England anyway as I do for check ups.

 

We have agreements in place with most of Europe as part of some obscure EU legislation.

Don't follow your point then. Especially seeing as the issues being discussed aren't really about free A & E for minor accidents.

[Park Life 71]

I'd say 'society' (a misnomer perhaps) has already gone its own way. Stuff like the NHS is arguably one of the last bits of veneer hiding that fact.

 

When Mrs P lived with me in England and had to go to the hospital when she cut her hand quite badly, she was really panicky babbling about insurance etc. I kept telling her it was free and she didn't believe me. It was quite a proud moment when she came back from the hospital and rang her mum enthusing about how she was treated quickly and how they laughed at her when she asked about payment.

 

NHS forever.

That's a nice anecdote but if (as I'm presuming is the case) the opposite wouldn't have been reciprocated in Germany, it just makes us mugs in my eyes.

 

It's the same here, I have a NHS Euro card. For normal stuff it's pretty much free. I've been once to get an inhaler (last year) free. Infact they offered me two.

 

For more complicated things there would probably be a charge but with a massive discount. I could always nip back to England anyway as I do for check ups.

 

We have agreements in place with most of Europe as part of some obscure EU legislation.

Don't follow your point then. Especially seeing as the issues being discussed aren't really about free A & E for minor accidents.

 

Sorry just carrying on the anecdote. Many apologies.

 

 

 

Personally we ought not to believe all the hype being pushed by drug and insurance companies who see a big pie they'd like to munch on.

 

There is a trip wire in the British psyche regarding the NHS and if an honest Govt suggested a 3p tax hike specifically for the NHS I think people would respect that IMO. Think the Lib Dems looked into it iirc.

 

On the other hand as Chez suggests some kind of insurance as a top up for those who want to would be a good idea. But we have to be careful as it might be a slippery slope.

[Guest alex]

I'd say 'society' (a misnomer perhaps) has already gone its own way. Stuff like the NHS is arguably one of the last bits of veneer hiding that fact.

 

When Mrs P lived with me in England and had to go to the hospital when she cut her hand quite badly, she was really panicky babbling about insurance etc. I kept telling her it was free and she didn't believe me. It was quite a proud moment when she came back from the hospital and rang her mum enthusing about how she was treated quickly and how they laughed at her when she asked about payment.

 

NHS forever.

That's a nice anecdote but if (as I'm presuming is the case) the opposite wouldn't have been reciprocated in Germany, it just makes us mugs in my eyes.

 

It's the same here, I have a NHS Euro card. For normal stuff it's pretty much free. I've been once to get an inhaler (last year) free. Infact they offered me two.

 

For more complicated things there would probably be a charge but with a massive discount. I could always nip back to England anyway as I do for check ups.

 

We have agreements in place with most of Europe as part of some obscure EU legislation.

Don't follow your point then. Especially seeing as the issues being discussed aren't really about free A & E for minor accidents.

 

Sorry just carrying on the anecdote. Many apologies.

 

 

 

Personally we ought not to believe all the hype being pushed by drug and insurance companies who see a big pie they'd like to munch on.

 

There is a trip wire in the British psyche regarding the NHS and if an honest Govt suggested a 3p tax hike specifically for the NHS I think people would respect that IMO. Think the Lib Dems looked into it iirc.

 

On the other hand as Chez suggests some kind of insurance as a top up for those who want to would be a good idea. But we have to be careful as it might be a slippery slope.

Not only do I think you're wrong on that but you actually agreed with me earlier in the thread when I alluded to as much, unless you think current / future generations are / are going to be more philantropic than previous ones.

[Park Life 71]

I'd say 'society' (a misnomer perhaps) has already gone its own way. Stuff like the NHS is arguably one of the last bits of veneer hiding that fact.

 

When Mrs P lived with me in England and had to go to the hospital when she cut her hand quite badly, she was really panicky babbling about insurance etc. I kept telling her it was free and she didn't believe me. It was quite a proud moment when she came back from the hospital and rang her mum enthusing about how she was treated quickly and how they laughed at her when she asked about payment.

 

NHS forever.

That's a nice anecdote but if (as I'm presuming is the case) the opposite wouldn't have been reciprocated in Germany, it just makes us mugs in my eyes.

 

It's the same here, I have a NHS Euro card. For normal stuff it's pretty much free. I've been once to get an inhaler (last year) free. Infact they offered me two.

 

For more complicated things there would probably be a charge but with a massive discount. I could always nip back to England anyway as I do for check ups.

 

We have agreements in place with most of Europe as part of some obscure EU legislation.

Don't follow your point then. Especially seeing as the issues being discussed aren't really about free A & E for minor accidents.

 

Sorry just carrying on the anecdote. Many apologies.

 

 

 

Personally we ought not to believe all the hype being pushed by drug and insurance companies who see a big pie they'd like to munch on.

 

There is a trip wire in the British psyche regarding the NHS and if an honest Govt suggested a 3p tax hike specifically for the NHS I think people would respect that IMO. Think the Lib Dems looked into it iirc.

 

On the other hand as Chez suggests some kind of insurance as a top up for those who want to would be a good idea. But we have to be careful as it might be a slippery slope.

Not only do I think you're wrong on that but you actually agreed with me earlier in the thread when I alluded to as much, unless you think current / future generations are / are going to be more philantropic than previous ones.

 

This where Blair failed imo. The project of giving people investment in micro-management ideals (letting them set their own targets and budgets) just ended up with hospital management making up stats to present a rosy picture.

 

Society needs to be led. Top down style. People for me are on the whole just too stupid to fully understand what the NHS means not simply as an asset, but what it says about us as a people.

 

Govt just need to tell people we're keeping it and this is how we're going to do it and you're going to pay for it. End of.

[Meenzer 15716]

There is a trip wire in the British psyche regarding the NHS and if an honest Govt suggested a 3p tax hike specifically for the NHS I think people would respect that IMO. Think the Lib Dems looked into it iirc.

I'd love to see the Daily Mail's "Our taxes are all going to immigrants, asylum seekers, paedophiles and disabled lesbians " headlines if the government of the day ever tried it...

[Guest alex]

You were originally saying people would go along with an 'honest government' (whatever that is) who suggested a 3p (income, I assume) tax raise to improve the NHS. I suppose you were portraying the public as intelligent in that case as, I guess, they'd be in agreement with you there. A minute later you're saying the public are stupid and need to be told 'this is what is happening, whether you like it or not'. All of which neglects to consider that even the weakest opposition imaginable wouldn't seize on an opportunity like that in a shot and would crucify the government over it. You also said earlier in the thread you'd come round to the idea that there was more to the NHS's problems than throwing money at the problem. That was you wasn't it? On top of the fact what you suggest would never happen / would be political suicide. You're all over the place man, Parky.

[Park Life 71]

There is a trip wire in the British psyche regarding the NHS and if an honest Govt suggested a 3p tax hike specifically for the NHS I think people would respect that IMO. Think the Lib Dems looked into it iirc.

I'd love to see the Daily Mail's "Our taxes are all going to immigrants, asylum seekers, paedophiles and disabled lesbians " headlines if the government of the day ever tried it...

 

Fuck the Daily Mail, fuck everyone who works there and fuck everyone who reads it.

[Guest alex]

There is a trip wire in the British psyche regarding the NHS and if an honest Govt suggested a 3p tax hike specifically for the NHS I think people would respect that IMO. Think the Lib Dems looked into it iirc.

I'd love to see the Daily Mail's "Our taxes are all going to immigrants, asylum seekers, paedophiles and disabled lesbians " headlines if the government of the day ever tried it...

 

Fuck the Daily Mail, fuck everyone who works there and fuck everyone who reads it.

All very well saying that and I hate the paper itself. A politician in the UK couldn't possibly take that view whilst in power though.

[Park Life 71]

You were originally saying people would go along with an 'honest government' (whatever that is) who suggested a 3p (income, I assume) tax raise to improve the NHS. I suppose you were portraying the public as intelligent in that case as, I guess, they'd be in agreement with you there. A minute later you're saying the public are stupid and need to be told 'this is what is happening, whether you like it or not'. All of which neglects to consider that even the weakest opposition imaginable wouldn't seize on an opportunity like that in a shot and would crucify the government over it. You also said earlier in the thread you'd come round to the idea that there was more to the NHS's problems than throwing money at the problem. That was you wasn't it? On top of the fact what you suggest would never happen / would be political suicide. You're all over the place man, Parky.

 

 

Probably the result of the Hitler/Ronaldo sketch.

 

This is probably a subject that is too emotive for me to deal with in my normal rational manner.

[Park Life 71]

There is a trip wire in the British psyche regarding the NHS and if an honest Govt suggested a 3p tax hike specifically for the NHS I think people would respect that IMO. Think the Lib Dems looked into it iirc.

I'd love to see the Daily Mail's "Our taxes are all going to immigrants, asylum seekers, paedophiles and disabled lesbians " headlines if the government of the day ever tried it...

 

Fuck the Daily Mail, fuck everyone who works there and fuck everyone who reads it.

All very well saying that and I hate the paper itself. A politician in the UK couldn't possibly take that view whilst in power though.

 

Well they should. Arm the people.

[Guest alex]

Well debated btw.

[Park Life 71]

Well debated btw.

 

Do you think when the NHS was invented and visionaries shone a beam of light across a war torn England they had time to sit in coffee mornings asking people what they thought?