Against child support?

[Fop 1]

I'll stick my neck out here Fop and say I honestly don't believe a word of that. I think you're just making it up for the sake of this argument. Perhaps your cynicism in humanity has rubbed off on me a bit

Maybe, it's still quite true though. Life's not always fun and game, even for me.

[Fop 1]

Not really.

 

Prison places is basic maths. There's a finite number of places and the system is failing.

 

I've never heard of anyone that works in Child support being asked to start knocking people back.

 

The economy is finite, tax revenue is finite, the amount you can therefore earmark for benefits is finite.

 

The more that is taken out of the pool by people that don't need it (and could be supporting themselves in other ways), leaves less for those that absolutely do need it.

 

As I said it's basic maths.

 

It still the same thing with prison places, there's a finite amount of cash, so there is a finite number of prison places, which leads arbitrary to shorter sentences which have nothing to with justice, rehabilitation or public safety, only lack of £££'s.

 

 

Now who's being idealistic. It's all borrowing anyway. If you think the crippled mother of 7 living in a boot will be given mansion and toys for all her kids if only all the 16 year olds in Byker would have a pang of conscience you're out your tree.

 

I'm being realistic, there is no population conscience and you can't expect it (you can hope for it if you like, just so long as you know that hope will be in vain most of the time), hence the system has to take all that out of the equation or it will systematically fail for as long as it exists.

[Happy Face 29]

I'm sure some people do abuse the system, but stopping benefits because some abuse them would be like stopping all paid sick leave because some employees abuse it. Why should I miss out on genuine sick leave because Gemmil stops at home every time his nose runs?

 

It's like the current incapacity benefit, it's now got to the stage where the Government may have to do something genuinely serious about it...... and before you say "what do you know", I have actually had a period in my life where I could have quite genuinely and legitimately got the full wack from that and at the time being significantly better off for it if I had, but I didn't, and the irony that I was in fact not only not claiming, but actually still paying for people much more fit and capable than I was then wasn't lost on me.

 

A system that benefits those most willing to milk it helps no one as much as it should and lets down everyone, morally and economically.

 

More fool you tbh.

 

Maybe, I made my choice based on my own principles and lived with it.

 

But if you design a system that benefits the least common denominator the most, then you're basically building a system to fail from the start. It's tragedy of the commons really and it will happen every time until the system is changed.

 

What do you mean by least common denominator? Surely a system should try and benefit the least well off as much as possible. Do you see yourself as the least common denominator? You made the choice not to claim, I assume you could afford not to.

 

Those most open and willing to abuse the system, not those most in need (necessarily).

 

As I said at the time I'd have been better off if I had (and would have had a generally much, much easier and nicer time in a non-financial sense too), and if I'd purely thought of my own selfish benefit the the choice would have been clear. Maybe most people would have and should taken that option, that's up to them, I'm just saying I've been there and am not just theoretically postulating on the realities of it.

 

But it still goes back to it being those most willing to milk the system getting the most benefit (in both contexts) from it, NOT those most in need of the system.

 

I think you live in a dreamworld where the clouds are made of The Daily Mail.

 

Those most in need never get knocked back for their benefit claims.

 

Benefit amounts aren't determined by what's left in the pot, but on what a person needs to live on.

 

Someone looking to milk the system doesn't get any more than an honest trustworthy person in the same position. If you apply for benefit and qualify, you get it. Simple as.

 

You're going on like they're trained to spot the fakers and double their support.

[Guest alex]

I'll stick my neck out here Fop and say I honestly don't believe a word of that. I think you're just making it up for the sake of this argument. Perhaps your cynicism in humanity has rubbed off on me a bit

Maybe, it's still quite true though. Life's not always fun and game, even for me.

It's a bit a strange though isn't it? I mean, if I've followed this right - your principles involved the belief that benefits should only go to those who need and deserve them. Yet, you were in a position where you could have legitimately claimed (so you wouldn't have been going against your own principles anyway) since by that I take it you meant you had a genuine ailment (or whatever) yet you undertook financial and other hardships on the basis that you just thought you should. Have I got that right? Because if I have it fucking reeks of bullshit.

[Fop 1]

I'll stick my neck out here Fop and say I honestly don't believe a word of that. I think you're just making it up for the sake of this argument. Perhaps your cynicism in humanity has rubbed off on me a bit

Maybe, it's still quite true though. Life's not always fun and game, even for me.

It's a bit a strange though isn't it? I mean, if I've followed this right - your principles involved the belief that benefits should only go to those who need and deserve them. Yet, you were in a position where you could have legitimately claimed (so you wouldn't have been going against your own principles anyway) since by that I take it you meant you had a genuine ailment (or whatever) yet you undertook financial and other hardships on the basis that you just thought you should. Have I got that right? Because if I have it fucking reeks of bullshit.

 

Well I had an option for work, which in fairness not everyone would have had in my situation (and without that I would have had less choice in the matter), but I still would have been better off not doing so and taking the benefits option at that time, not only in monetary terms, but also in more general quality of life terms too (and most people told me I should, but then when do I listen to most people? ).

I really don't like to sponge or be in debt in any way, it's just how I am, it's not the most intelligent way to live certainly, but it is my way.

 

 

Not that it has anything to do with the arguments here though, other than "well what do you know", and that I could have milked the system if I'd wanted too, even though I did have other options open too me (and as I said a system like that is bound to be milked on balance).

[Happy Face 29]

I'll stick my neck out here Fop and say I honestly don't believe a word of that. I think you're just making it up for the sake of this argument. Perhaps your cynicism in humanity has rubbed off on me a bit

Maybe, it's still quite true though. Life's not always fun and game, even for me.

It's a bit a strange though isn't it? I mean, if I've followed this right - your principles involved the belief that benefits should only go to those who need and deserve them. Yet, you were in a position where you could have legitimately claimed (so you wouldn't have been going against your own principles anyway) since by that I take it you meant you had a genuine ailment (or whatever) yet you undertook financial and other hardships on the basis that you just thought you should. Have I got that right? Because if I have it fucking reeks of bullshit.

 

Well I had an option for work, which in fairness not everyone would have had in my situation (and without that I would have had less choice in the matter), but I still would have been better off not doing so and taking the benefits option at that time, not only in monetary terms, but also in more general quality of life terms too (and most people told me I should, but then when do I listen to most people? ).

I really don't like to sponge or be in debt in any way, it's just how I am, it's not the most intelligent way to live certainly, but it is my way.

 

 

Not that it has anything to do with the arguments here though, other than "well what do you know", and that I could have milked the system if I'd wanted too, even though I did have other options open too me (and as I said a system like that is bound to be milked on balance).

 

I'd rather have a system that can be milked, than no system at all.

 

I don't know if your story is true or not. I know plenty of people who've refused to ask for benefits they thoroughly deserved though. If you can afford to be proud, good for you.

[Park Life 71]

I'll stick my neck out here Fop and say I honestly don't believe a word of that. I think you're just making it up for the sake of this argument. Perhaps your cynicism in humanity has rubbed off on me a bit

Maybe, it's still quite true though. Life's not always fun and game, even for me.

It's a bit a strange though isn't it? I mean, if I've followed this right - your principles involved the belief that benefits should only go to those who need and deserve them. Yet, you were in a position where you could have legitimately claimed (so you wouldn't have been going against your own principles anyway) since by that I take it you meant you had a genuine ailment (or whatever) yet you undertook financial and other hardships on the basis that you just thought you should. Have I got that right? Because if I have it fucking reeks of bullshit.

 

Well I had an option for work, which in fairness not everyone would have had in my situation (and without that I would have had less choice in the matter), but I still would have been better off not doing so and taking the benefits option at that time, not only in monetary terms, but also in more general quality of life terms too (and most people told me I should, but then when do I listen to most people? ).

I really don't like to sponge or be in debt in any way, it's just how I am, it's not the most intelligent way to live certainly, but it is my way.

 

 

Not that it has anything to do with the arguments here though, other than "well what do you know", and that I could have milked the system if I'd wanted too, even though I did have other options open too me (and as I said a system like that is bound to be milked on balance).

 

One option is to introduce company payments into the healthcare system/welfare per worker or summat...

[Fop 1]

I think you live in a dreamworld where the clouds are made of The Daily Mail.

 

Those most in need never get knocked back for their benefit claims.

 

Actually if they don't know the system, they do.

 

 

Benefit amounts aren't determined by what's left in the pot, but on what a person needs to live on.

 

Utter crap, taxation may seem infinate because of the number involved, but numbers HAVE to add up, no matter how small or large.

 

 

 

Someone looking to milk the system doesn't get any more than an honest trustworthy person in the same position. If you apply for benefit and qualify, you get it. Simple as.

 

You're going on like they're trained to spot the fakers and double their support.

 

Nope.

 

Let me give you an example; to get the disabled parking badge (a few year ago anyway, they've tighten things up a bit now I believe), part of the process was a bit where as you were sat in front of the assessor you were asked to walk a few metres. If you struggled across the few metres no matter how obviously difficult it was for you, you could be rejected for the badge. If you just sat there and said you couldn't, then you were fine (even if it was blatantly obvious you could actually walk that far).

 

Those that knew the system would get one in that context, those that didn't may well not. Yet their actual levels of disability could have nothing to do with it.

[Happy Face 29]

I'll stick my neck out here Fop and say I honestly don't believe a word of that. I think you're just making it up for the sake of this argument. Perhaps your cynicism in humanity has rubbed off on me a bit

Maybe, it's still quite true though. Life's not always fun and game, even for me.

It's a bit a strange though isn't it? I mean, if I've followed this right - your principles involved the belief that benefits should only go to those who need and deserve them. Yet, you were in a position where you could have legitimately claimed (so you wouldn't have been going against your own principles anyway) since by that I take it you meant you had a genuine ailment (or whatever) yet you undertook financial and other hardships on the basis that you just thought you should. Have I got that right? Because if I have it fucking reeks of bullshit.

 

Well I had an option for work, which in fairness not everyone would have had in my situation (and without that I would have had less choice in the matter), but I still would have been better off not doing so and taking the benefits option at that time, not only in monetary terms, but also in more general quality of life terms too (and most people told me I should, but then when do I listen to most people? ).

I really don't like to sponge or be in debt in any way, it's just how I am, it's not the most intelligent way to live certainly, but it is my way.

 

 

Not that it has anything to do with the arguments here though, other than "well what do you know", and that I could have milked the system if I'd wanted too, even though I did have other options open too me (and as I said a system like that is bound to be milked on balance).

 

One option is to introduce company payments into the healthcare system/welfare per worker or summat...

 

Let's drive business abroad.

 

 

 

...moreso.

 

[Happy Face 29]

I think you live in a dreamworld where the clouds are made of The Daily Mail.

 

Those most in need never get knocked back for their benefit claims.

 

Actually if they don't know the system, they do.

 

 

Benefit amounts aren't determined by what's left in the pot, but on what a person needs to live on.

 

Utter crap, taxation may seem infinate because of the number involved, but numbers HAVE to add up, no matter how small or large.

 

 

 

Someone looking to milk the system doesn't get any more than an honest trustworthy person in the same position. If you apply for benefit and qualify, you get it. Simple as.

 

You're going on like they're trained to spot the fakers and double their support.

 

Nope.

 

Let me give you an example; to get the disabled parking badge (a few year ago anyway, they've tighten things up a bit now I believe), part of the process was a bit where as you were sat in front of the assessor you were asked to walk a few metres. If you struggled across the few metres no matter how obviously difficult it was for you, you could be rejected for the badge. If you just sat there and said you couldn't, then you were fine (even if it was blatantly obvious you could actually walk that far).

 

Those that knew the system would get one in that context, those that didn't may well not. Yet their actual levels of disability could have nothing to do with it.

 

You'd have to be pretty fuckin stupid to try your best and push yourself through the pain barrier to pass a fitness test when you're putting in for disability like.

[Park Life 71]

I'll stick my neck out here Fop and say I honestly don't believe a word of that. I think you're just making it up for the sake of this argument. Perhaps your cynicism in humanity has rubbed off on me a bit

Maybe, it's still quite true though. Life's not always fun and game, even for me.

It's a bit a strange though isn't it? I mean, if I've followed this right - your principles involved the belief that benefits should only go to those who need and deserve them. Yet, you were in a position where you could have legitimately claimed (so you wouldn't have been going against your own principles anyway) since by that I take it you meant you had a genuine ailment (or whatever) yet you undertook financial and other hardships on the basis that you just thought you should. Have I got that right? Because if I have it fucking reeks of bullshit.

 

Well I had an option for work, which in fairness not everyone would have had in my situation (and without that I would have had less choice in the matter), but I still would have been better off not doing so and taking the benefits option at that time, not only in monetary terms, but also in more general quality of life terms too (and most people told me I should, but then when do I listen to most people? ).

I really don't like to sponge or be in debt in any way, it's just how I am, it's not the most intelligent way to live certainly, but it is my way.

 

 

Not that it has anything to do with the arguments here though, other than "well what do you know", and that I could have milked the system if I'd wanted too, even though I did have other options open too me (and as I said a system like that is bound to be milked on balance).

 

One option is to introduce company payments into the healthcare system/welfare per worker or summat...

 

Let's drive business abroad.

 

 

 

...moreso.

 

 

 

It's the perpetual debate here about the strings attached in employment law la di dah...The right wingers want more our system. I can't help feeling ill when I see those massive mulit-national and bank profits.

[Fop 1]

I'll stick my neck out here Fop and say I honestly don't believe a word of that. I think you're just making it up for the sake of this argument. Perhaps your cynicism in humanity has rubbed off on me a bit

Maybe, it's still quite true though. Life's not always fun and game, even for me.

It's a bit a strange though isn't it? I mean, if I've followed this right - your principles involved the belief that benefits should only go to those who need and deserve them. Yet, you were in a position where you could have legitimately claimed (so you wouldn't have been going against your own principles anyway) since by that I take it you meant you had a genuine ailment (or whatever) yet you undertook financial and other hardships on the basis that you just thought you should. Have I got that right? Because if I have it fucking reeks of bullshit.

 

Well I had an option for work, which in fairness not everyone would have had in my situation (and without that I would have had less choice in the matter), but I still would have been better off not doing so and taking the benefits option at that time, not only in monetary terms, but also in more general quality of life terms too (and most people told me I should, but then when do I listen to most people? ).

I really don't like to sponge or be in debt in any way, it's just how I am, it's not the most intelligent way to live certainly, but it is my way.

 

 

Not that it has anything to do with the arguments here though, other than "well what do you know", and that I could have milked the system if I'd wanted too, even though I did have other options open too me (and as I said a system like that is bound to be milked on balance).

 

I'd rather have a system that can be milked, than no system at all.

 

I don't know if your story is true or not. I know plenty of people who've refused to ask for benefits they thoroughly deserved though. If you can afford to be proud, good for you.

 

 

But those aren't the only two possible options; a broken system or no system at all. I'd rather have a system that cannot be milked (or at least is as difficult as possible) than one that is fairly wide open to abuse.

 

Yup if someone doesn't want to take them that's their own fault, but allowing a system that allows those that don't need them to take them is everyone's fault.

 

And I dunno about "pride", it's not always about pride to not take what you don't absolutely need, although it's definitely about honesty not to, but it's just as much dishonesty and theft to abuse the system as it is to shoplift, or pickpocket or credit card fraud or whatever.

[Fop 1]

You'd have to be pretty fuckin stupid to try your best and push yourself through the pain barrier to pass a fitness test when you're putting in for disability like.

 

Yup "stupid" or "honest" or "trying your best". All things that must be avoided in the UK.

 

 

Although it's not about the pain barrier so much as an arbitrary hoop that you know you must not jump though, many people are quite capable of walking a few metres, yet are absolutely deserving of the disabled badge.

 

Like incapacity benefit I think they are moving towards a more "proof" based system though, although how strong that proof is we'll have to see.

 

 

 

 

It's the perpetual debate here about the strings attached in employment law la di dah...The right wingers want more our system. I can't help feeling ill when I see those massive mulit-national and bank profits.

 

Yup two ends of the system with the vast majority in the middle being screwed on way or another.

[Happy Face 29]

I'll stick my neck out here Fop and say I honestly don't believe a word of that. I think you're just making it up for the sake of this argument. Perhaps your cynicism in humanity has rubbed off on me a bit

Maybe, it's still quite true though. Life's not always fun and game, even for me.

It's a bit a strange though isn't it? I mean, if I've followed this right - your principles involved the belief that benefits should only go to those who need and deserve them. Yet, you were in a position where you could have legitimately claimed (so you wouldn't have been going against your own principles anyway) since by that I take it you meant you had a genuine ailment (or whatever) yet you undertook financial and other hardships on the basis that you just thought you should. Have I got that right? Because if I have it fucking reeks of bullshit.

 

Well I had an option for work, which in fairness not everyone would have had in my situation (and without that I would have had less choice in the matter), but I still would have been better off not doing so and taking the benefits option at that time, not only in monetary terms, but also in more general quality of life terms too (and most people told me I should, but then when do I listen to most people? ).

I really don't like to sponge or be in debt in any way, it's just how I am, it's not the most intelligent way to live certainly, but it is my way.

 

 

Not that it has anything to do with the arguments here though, other than "well what do you know", and that I could have milked the system if I'd wanted too, even though I did have other options open too me (and as I said a system like that is bound to be milked on balance).

 

I'd rather have a system that can be milked, than no system at all.

 

I don't know if your story is true or not. I know plenty of people who've refused to ask for benefits they thoroughly deserved though. If you can afford to be proud, good for you.

 

 

But those aren't the only two possible options; a broken system or no system at all. I'd rather have a system that cannot be milked (or at least is as difficult as possible) than one that is fairly wide open to abuse.

 

Yup if someone doesn't want to take them that's their own fault, but allowing a system that allows those that don't need them to take them is everyone's fault.

 

And I dunno about "pride", it's not always about pride to not take what you don't absolutely need, although it's definitely about honesty not to, but it's just as much dishonesty and theft to abuse the system as it is to shoplift, or pickpocket or credit card fraud or whatever.

 

They are like, unless you're advocating a perfect system? If so, how would you implement that my good man.

 

As usual you hold no truck with anything I'm saying, you're just arguing for the sake of it. You agree the system we have is better than nothing, you know that we'll NEVER stop people taking advantage of a situation when they can and you know a flawless system isn't possible....if not, let's hear it.

[Fop 1]

I'll stick my neck out here Fop and say I honestly don't believe a word of that. I think you're just making it up for the sake of this argument. Perhaps your cynicism in humanity has rubbed off on me a bit

Maybe, it's still quite true though. Life's not always fun and game, even for me.

It's a bit a strange though isn't it? I mean, if I've followed this right - your principles involved the belief that benefits should only go to those who need and deserve them. Yet, you were in a position where you could have legitimately claimed (so you wouldn't have been going against your own principles anyway) since by that I take it you meant you had a genuine ailment (or whatever) yet you undertook financial and other hardships on the basis that you just thought you should. Have I got that right? Because if I have it fucking reeks of bullshit.

 

Well I had an option for work, which in fairness not everyone would have had in my situation (and without that I would have had less choice in the matter), but I still would have been better off not doing so and taking the benefits option at that time, not only in monetary terms, but also in more general quality of life terms too (and most people told me I should, but then when do I listen to most people? ).

I really don't like to sponge or be in debt in any way, it's just how I am, it's not the most intelligent way to live certainly, but it is my way.

 

 

Not that it has anything to do with the arguments here though, other than "well what do you know", and that I could have milked the system if I'd wanted too, even though I did have other options open too me (and as I said a system like that is bound to be milked on balance).

 

I'd rather have a system that can be milked, than no system at all.

 

I don't know if your story is true or not. I know plenty of people who've refused to ask for benefits they thoroughly deserved though. If you can afford to be proud, good for you.

 

 

But those aren't the only two possible options; a broken system or no system at all. I'd rather have a system that cannot be milked (or at least is as difficult as possible) than one that is fairly wide open to abuse.

 

Yup if someone doesn't want to take them that's their own fault, but allowing a system that allows those that don't need them to take them is everyone's fault.

 

And I dunno about "pride", it's not always about pride to not take what you don't absolutely need, although it's definitely about honesty not to, but it's just as much dishonesty and theft to abuse the system as it is to shoplift, or pickpocket or credit card fraud or whatever.

 

They are like, unless you're advocating a perfect system? If so, how would you implement that my good man.

 

As usual you hold no truck with anything I'm saying, you're just arguing for the sake of it. You agree the system we have is better than nothing, you know that we'll NEVER stop people taking advantage of a situation when they can and you know a flawless system isn't possible....if not, let's hear it.

 

 

It needs weighting far more towards the lots of help to get you on your feet (and the ending of the silly situation where you're still better of not working even where you can), but less likelihood of long term abuse end of things. The US did something similar and it worked in the context of getting people back into work, although it's an overly harsh system for my taste.

 

The UK government sort of tried this with jobseekers, but largely just ended up moving many of them on incapacity benefit instead, which the are now looking at due to the numbers. That isn't necessarily a failure needing to result in a toys out of the pram "well we tried and we can't do anything" thing though, but more that you can't tinker with one aspect and leave another wide open.

 

 

Stuff like the latest low rate tax increase is just barmy though, punishing people for not having kids and thereby claim for them even though they are likely earning below the Governments stated poverty line.