Aston Villa v Newcastle United

[Papa Lazaru 0]

So you wouldn't have hoyed Emre and Viduka on then? Ok.

 

Aye, good point, they'd have got 2 goals each no problem.

Don't even know what you're on about now. It was crying out for a change at 2-1 and Viduka for Smith and Emre for the woeful Barton were the obvious ones for me. No one is saying they'd have definitely won us the game but just sticking with what we had was tantamount to conceding the match imo.

 

Alex has saved me arguing but the basic, simple point is if the team are playing shite you try something else. The player(s) coming on may not be world beaters but they could turn the game. O'Neil brought on Harewood to change it, hardly a world class talent is he?

 

And another aspect of it is fresh legs and maybe a bit of impetus from the new players, and it tells the players taken off and those still on that they need to improve.

 

And finally i don't see how anyone can argue that Emre could have been worse than what Barton was producing therefore he should have been on and likewise Viduka can turn matches, he may not always do it, but he can and he was more likely to score than Smith.

 

As for saying the likes of Fergie have better squads, that's not the point, the point is they throw everything they have at it to win, whether that means changes at halftime, playing late on with 3 strikers or whatever they'll do it. If through injuries or whatever the quality of their bench wasn't as good as normal they'd still chuck somebody on as they don't stand for platers not doing what's required on the pitch.

[Bombadil 0]

I'm no great fan of Barton and Smith, but reading this discussion makes me try to recall the last time Emre and/or Viduka ever changed a game?

 

Viduka at least spared our blushes against Derby, while Emre has come on as a sub a few times this season and come up with a good free-kick or corner that led to a goal. Barton and Smith on the other hand are just useless, full stop.

[luckyluke 2]

I'm no great fan of Barton and Smith, but reading this discussion makes me try to recall the last time Emre and/or Viduka ever changed a game?

 

Viduka at least spared our blushes against Derby, while Emre has come on as a sub a few times this season and come up with a good free-kick or corner that led to a goal. Barton and Smith on the other hand are just useless, full stop.

 

It was Emre's cross that Owen scored from against Boro and he neally scored today. Hardly world beating, but it's more Smith and Barton have done put together.

[Norbert Colon 0]

I just think that second half as usual butts legs go and because barton is so inept he can't cover all of the pitch - thus the defence has to soak up too much pressure - the introduction of faye into midfield might just have given us a bit of power and bite that we lacked - it was like foreman vs mcguigan - we got flattened by a bigger and stronger opponent who as you say may contain journeymen (i personally think they are better than that like) but their height and muscle told in the end

[Kid Dynamite 7027]

Ive got to say I was disappointed in KK when he waited until 3-1 before he brought someone on. And as much as Viduka is fat and lazy, he can also score goals which is something Smith hasnt done for nearly 2 years now

[Fop 1]

So you wouldn't have hoyed Emre and Viduka on then? Ok.

 

Aye, good point, they'd have got 2 goals each no problem.

Don't even know what you're on about now. It was crying out for a change at 2-1 and Viduka for Smith and Emre for the woeful Barton were the obvious ones for me. No one is saying they'd have definitely won us the game but just sticking with what we had was tantamount to conceding the match imo.

 

Alex has saved me arguing but the basic, simple point is if the team are playing shite you try something else. The player(s) coming on may not be world beaters but they could turn the game. O'Neil brought on Harewood to change it, hardly a world class talent is he?

 

And another aspect of it is fresh legs and maybe a bit of impetus from the new players, and it tells the players taken off and those still on that they need to improve.

 

And finally i don't see how anyone can argue that Emre could have been worse than what Barton was producing therefore he should have been on and likewise Viduka can turn matches, he may not always do it, but he can and he was more likely to score than Smith.

 

As for saying the likes of Fergie have better squads, that's not the point, the point is they throw everything they have at it to win, whether that means changes at halftime, playing late on with 3 strikers or whatever they'll do it. If through injuries or whatever the quality of their bench wasn't as good as normal they'd still chuck somebody on as they don't stand for platers not doing what's required on the pitch.

 

Aye but a not match fit..... well even a match fit Viduka is well capable of disappearing in a game.

 

And Emre..... well let's just say if he was the creative solution to our midfield issues the last few seasons would have been a lot nicer to be a NUFC fan.

 

 

I dunno that Fergie (or anyone else) would have done much different give the situation and the squad, I wouldn't say that he is really the master tactician either (on the pitch anyway), he often just does the expected thing (bringing on a quality and fresh striker like Solskjaer or Sheringham at the end of a game) and he never seemed to sort out losing Scholes for a season with that eye injury, and I think his greatest strengths and reasons for his winning are in other areas.

But what he does always have is real genuine quality to bring off the bench, we don't. We don't have it on the pitch in many areas, never mind the bench.

 

O'neill is a manager with a reputation for that sort of thing..... but then frankly so was Allardyce in his way too. Keegan isn't that sort of manager perhaps, but equally with this current squad it probably won't help that much.

[peasepud 59]

We really need to be aiming for 17th place this season. If we go down Allardyce will be ranked alongside Hitler on Tyneside. Hes fucked this club up from top to bottom in less than 6 months.

 

We made 2 journeymen strikers in Harewood and Carew look world class. Theres a reason they keep getting sold you know!

 

The only 4 i wouldnt sell out of that team are Beye, Taylor, Given and maybe Milner.

 

This is what worried me from day 1 though. Allardyce didnt turn us into a nothing team, he did nowt I agree but he didnt dismantle a squad of creative flair players and bring in knackers. Yet already we're planning to move any blame, should the unthinkable happen, firmly away from KK.

 

Allardyce didnt pick that team today, Allardyce didnt give the team talk at half time and Allardyce sure as fuck didnt sit there on the bench nattering to Terry Mac while we were torn apart.

[Fop 1]

We really need to be aiming for 17th place this season. If we go down Allardyce will be ranked alongside Hitler on Tyneside. Hes fucked this club up from top to bottom in less than 6 months.

 

We made 2 journeymen strikers in Harewood and Carew look world class. Theres a reason they keep getting sold you know!

 

The only 4 i wouldnt sell out of that team are Beye, Taylor, Given and maybe Milner.

 

This is what worried me from day 1 though. Allardyce didnt turn us into a nothing team, he did nowt I agree but he didnt dismantle a squad of creative flair players and bring in knackers. Yet already we're planning to move any blame, should the unthinkable happen, firmly away from KK.

 

Allardyce didnt pick that team today, Allardyce didnt give the team talk at half time and Allardyce sure as fuck didnt sit there on the bench nattering to Terry Mac while we were torn apart.

 

It's on Keegan's head in the end, but people are insane to expect him to create a functional team (never mind a good and attack minded team) out of a very small squad players that just seem to be missing the pieces to be that.

 

But even if Keegan has completely lost it as a manager what are we going to do?

 

Allardyce couldn't get these players to function as a defensively minded unit, and if Keegan can't get them to function as a more creative and attack minded unit (I actually think for the same reason - no effective midfield) either then we are genuinely screwed no matter what.

[Park Life 71]

We really need to be aiming for 17th place this season. If we go down Allardyce will be ranked alongside Hitler on Tyneside. Hes fucked this club up from top to bottom in less than 6 months.

 

We made 2 journeymen strikers in Harewood and Carew look world class. Theres a reason they keep getting sold you know!

 

The only 4 i wouldnt sell out of that team are Beye, Taylor, Given and maybe Milner.

 

This is what worried me from day 1 though. Allardyce didnt turn us into a nothing team, he did nowt I agree but he didnt dismantle a squad of creative flair players and bring in knackers. Yet already we're planning to move any blame, should the unthinkable happen, firmly away from KK.

 

Allardyce didnt pick that team today, Allardyce didnt give the team talk at half time and Allardyce sure as fuck didnt sit there on the bench nattering to Terry Mac while we were torn apart.

 

This nattering is getting out of control.

 

It looks like a total confidence meltdown as soon as the other side score.

Edited February 9, 2008 by Park Life

[Smooth Operator 10]

As bad as we were collectively today I'd single out Duff today as being pure shite.

 

Duff can fuck off now for me, there was a moment in the first half when Reo-Coker over ran the ball and Duff could have had it away from him but he jogged towards the ball with no intent or interest in getting it, and then at the last moment put in a little burst but it was too little too late.

 

He can't get past a man anymore and more often than not his crosses are woeful. And he always looks fucking knackered, even in the 1st minute of a game after a bit of a run he seems to be blowing out of his arse.

 

Keegans got his work cut out making a respectable finish with this sack of shite he's got to work with.

 

I've just about had it with Cacapa as well, Faye should be well ahead of him in the pecking order for centre half.

[tony morley 0]

Milner was by far and away the best player on the park today

[Bombadil 0]

Milner was by far and away the best player on the park today

 

I'm not a big fan of Milner, but I agree that he was our best player today.

[tony morley 0]

I'm not a big fan of Milner, but I agree that he was our best player today.

 

I actually thought he was the best player from either side.

[sweetleftpeg 0]

Even the strange mental bloke who sits at the back of my local, clutching a pastie and shouting 'it's a bomb! it's a bomb' could see Smith was getting fuck all and would continue to get fuck all. Yet on he stayed.

[tony morley 0]

Even the strange mental bloke who sits at the back of my local, clutching a pastie and shouting 'it's a bomb! it's a bomb' could see Smith was getting fuck all and would continue to get fuck all. Yet on he stayed.

 

Yep, the difference was managerial. O'Neill saw it wasn't working, changed it and won the game.

[Ken 119]

We really need to be aiming for 17th place this season. If we go down Allardyce will be ranked alongside Hitler on Tyneside. Hes fucked this club up from top to bottom in less than 6 months.

 

We made 2 journeymen strikers in Harewood and Carew look world class. Theres a reason they keep getting sold you know!

 

The only 4 i wouldnt sell out of that team are Beye, Taylor, Given and maybe Milner.

 

This is what worried me from day 1 though. Allardyce didnt turn us into a nothing team, he did nowt I agree but he didnt dismantle a squad of creative flair players and bring in knackers. Yet already we're planning to move any blame, should the unthinkable happen, firmly away from KK.

 

Allardyce didnt pick that team today, Allardyce didnt give the team talk at half time and Allardyce sure as fuck didnt sit there on the bench nattering to Terry Mac while we were torn apart.

Which brings me to my original argument back when Allardyce got the sack. Mike Ashley and Chris Mort are clueless in regards to football. There hearts might be in it, and Ashley has the cash and paid off the debt, but to rid Allardyce like they did was suicide. To bring in a bloke (who may be able to turn us around a bit next season) that had no connections to the modern game and expected him to do any better was just stupid. He doesn't know that the players that once could play can't do it anymore. Carr, Smith, Barton, Butt. Bloody hell, next week he'll start Ameobi. He obviously doesn't rate Viduka.

We are too close to a relegation fight for KK to "acclimatise" to where we are at as a football club and the players who aren't up to it. He should never had been made manager until at least a couple of games before the end of the season when we were safe. I'm just looking at the fixture list now, and I don't see too many victories coming our way.

 

We are a joke of a club. People want to bang on about the club being victimised by southerners but it is playing out exactly how they predicted. Do you think the club has any credibility?

I think we have none, and with that comes the hardships of a relegation fight, and decent players we'd want to target for next season looking at us and thinking we should be avoided like the fucking plague. Avoiding relegation this season should be met with the same enthusiasm as if we had won the treble. It will be a magnificent effort.

[Guest alex]

Just repeating yourself now Fop.

 

Aye, as opposed to trying to argue with me and then agreeing with everything I said, which is just SO productive and sensible.

I thought you were arguing you wouldn't have made any changes though. I would have.

 

No, just that any changes that could have been made were meh at best.

Well, I was arguing they were worth making and could have had an impact.

[Park Life 71]

We really need to be aiming for 17th place this season. If we go down Allardyce will be ranked alongside Hitler on Tyneside. Hes fucked this club up from top to bottom in less than 6 months.

 

We made 2 journeymen strikers in Harewood and Carew look world class. Theres a reason they keep getting sold you know!

 

The only 4 i wouldnt sell out of that team are Beye, Taylor, Given and maybe Milner.

 

This is what worried me from day 1 though. Allardyce didnt turn us into a nothing team, he did nowt I agree but he didnt dismantle a squad of creative flair players and bring in knackers. Yet already we're planning to move any blame, should the unthinkable happen, firmly away from KK.

 

Allardyce didnt pick that team today, Allardyce didnt give the team talk at half time and Allardyce sure as fuck didnt sit there on the bench nattering to Terry Mac while we were torn apart.

Which brings me to my original argument back when Allardyce got the sack. Mike Ashley and Chris Mort are clueless in regards to football. There hearts might be in it, and Ashley has the cash and paid off the debt, but to rid Allardyce like they did was suicide. To bring in a bloke (who may be able to turn us around a bit next season) that had no connections to the modern game and expected him to do any better was just stupid. He doesn't know that the players that once could play can't do it anymore. Carr, Smith, Barton, Butt. Bloody hell, next week he'll start Ameobi. He obviously doesn't rate Viduka.

We are too close to a relegation fight for KK to "acclimatise" to where we are at as a football club and the players who aren't up to it. He should never had been made manager until at least a couple of games before the end of the season when we were safe. I'm just looking at the fixture list now, and I don't see too many victories coming our way.

 

We are a joke of a club. People want to bang on about the club being victimised by southerners but it is playing out exactly how they predicted. Do you think the club has any credibility?

I think we have none, and with that comes the hardships of a relegation fight, and decent players we'd want to target for next season looking at us and thinking we should be avoided like the fucking plague. Avoiding relegation this season should be met with the same enthusiasm as if we had won the treble. It will be a magnificent effort.

 

Sacking* at the start of the window was irrational agreed. If they had reservations about SA (they did almost from day one apparently) they should have waited till the summer. This was further compounded by bringing in a man who couldn't really deal in a vital transfer window, a window in which we needed some reinforcements as has become clear.

[Sima 0]

We really need to be aiming for 17th place this season. If we go down Allardyce will be ranked alongside Hitler on Tyneside. Hes fucked this club up from top to bottom in less than 6 months.

 

We made 2 journeymen strikers in Harewood and Carew look world class. Theres a reason they keep getting sold you know!

 

The only 4 i wouldnt sell out of that team are Beye, Taylor, Given and maybe Milner.

 

Really don't understand how it would be Allardyce's fault if we were relegated. We were mid-table when Keegan took over, if we go down it's squarely on his head.

[Guest alex]

Much as I prefer KK (maybe it's just the idea of him rather than Allardyce that I prefer) but it's difficult to argue with your synopsis there Sima. I don't think we'll go down but we weren't going down under Allardyce either.

[Park Life 71]

Much as I prefer KK (maybe it's just the idea of him rather than Allardyce that I prefer) but it's difficult to argue with your synopsis there Sima. I don't think we'll go down but we weren't going down under Allardyce either.

 

Hence the mystery timing of the sacking. Fresh starts are better made in the summer.

[Guest alex]

Much as I prefer KK (maybe it's just the idea of him rather than Allardyce that I prefer) but it's difficult to argue with your synopsis there Sima. I don't think we'll go down but we weren't going down under Allardyce either.

 

Hence the mystery timing of the sacking. Fresh starts are better made in the summer.

I agree the timing was bad. The situation wasn't any different to how it was in December so either waiting until the summer or sacking/appointing at the start of the window would have been better.

[Isegrim 9775]

Much as I prefer KK (maybe it's just the idea of him rather than Allardyce that I prefer) but it's difficult to argue with your synopsis there Sima. I don't think we'll go down but we weren't going down under Allardyce either.

 

Hence the mystery timing of the sacking. Fresh starts are better made in the summer.

Really? The season was already over. Giving your new manager a head start of six months to have a look at the squad and the things he wants to change is much better than to try to do it with limited time in the summer.

[Park Life 71]

Much as I prefer KK (maybe it's just the idea of him rather than Allardyce that I prefer) but it's difficult to argue with your synopsis there Sima. I don't think we'll go down but we weren't going down under Allardyce either.

 

Hence the mystery timing of the sacking. Fresh starts are better made in the summer.

Really? The season was already over. Giving your new manager a head start of six months to have a look at the squad and the things he wants to change is much better than to try to do it with limited time in the summer.

 

Were you in that ill fated last meeting?

Edited February 10, 2008 by Park Life

[Sima 0]

Much as I prefer KK (maybe it's just the idea of him rather than Allardyce that I prefer) but it's difficult to argue with your synopsis there Sima. I don't think we'll go down but we weren't going down under Allardyce either.

 

Hence the mystery timing of the sacking. Fresh starts are better made in the summer.

Really?The season was already over. Giving your new manager a head start of six months to have a look at the squad and the things he wants to change is much better than to try to do it with limited time in the summer.

 

But it's not though, I might agree with you if we were sitting on 40-odd points but there's still games to win and I can't see us winning any at the minute.