Mocking people's beliefs.

[NJS 4386]

I think Fish's post probably illustrates two sides of the argument - if muslims and jews both suddenly stopped believing then they'd still have issues. However I'd argue that the forming of the "gangs" in the first place is the root cause that religion feeds on and off.

 

Iread a riposte to the classic anti-atheist argument about Stalin a little while ago that alluded to totalatarian communism and religion being like smallpox and cancer - both are killers but just because we eradicate one doesn't mean we should tolerate the other. I'd add tribalism and nationalism to the list of diseases.

[ewerk 30620]

Isn't it something stupid like 75%+ of British Muslims belief that Jews commited 9/11 to cause issues for muslims?

 

 

Although even more bizarely something like 80% of British Muslims believe Jews murdered Diana.

 

Source?

[@yourservice 67]

Mido is a legend

[Tom 14011]

Mido is a legend

 

Anglophobe!

[Meenzer 15531]

Mido is a legend

 

Anglophobe!

 

Midophile, shirley?

[Tom 14011]

Mido is a legend

 

Anglophobe!

 

Midophile, shirley?

 

[Meenzer 15531]

I'm just piggybacking on the genius wit of the original chant tbh. Not an original bone in my body (oi, we'll have less of that).

[Tom 14011]

If it wasn't for the fucking guardian...

 

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3894]

coincedentally my taxi driver last night was espousing islam and trying to get me on his side by blaming the jews for pretty much everything on the planet. I was uncharacteristically diplomatic, politely stating my atheist beliefs (always think it's daft to say that my "belief" is that I don't "believe" ) but that I agree with the core commandments of the three religions from that area, don't kill, don't steal etc. etc but I was vehemently opposed to people stating these ancient texts as entirely relevant and that I believed that religion must evolve. He agreed that and admitted all three religious texts were subjective.

 

He then went on to say that the Koran and the Bible both blamed the Jews for the death of Jesus and their greed was the fuel behind that. He said that this was historical fact. I asked how can anything be described as fact when it was (puportedly)written 2000 years ago and has been translated countless times. I asked him how can it be fact when it's subjective as he had admitted earlier... strangely enough he blew past that question.

 

He was eloquent and put his arguments across well, but when I brought up religious terrorism he became more agitated and the volume increased. He kept returning to the Jews and the Americans, saying that they were to blame for everything, they were stealing "our oil". I said that we lived on one planet and to describe things as ours or theirs is missing the big picture, a crime every country is guilty of at the minute.

 

He returned to blaming the Jews saying they were the reason for the fundamentalists, they were behind the wars and they were going to lead to the end of the world. Luckily it was the end of my cab ride so I pithily signed of with something along the lines of "The real reason behind fundamentalism and wars is ignorance and intolerance." not a bad bit of reasoning for someone who was tired and more than a little merry, if you ask me.

 

the point of this post is unclear to me now

 

just wanted to share.

 

food time I think

 

He was wrong the Romans killed Jesus. Crucifixion was a Roman punishment if the Jews killed him he would have been stoned to death. All the earliest christians were Jewish it was a Jewish sect. Also the state of Palestine forgets it did offer to help the Nazi's eradicate the Jews this was before the Israeli state was thought of. There was also a Muslim battalion in the SS.

[Fop 1]

Isn't it something stupid like 75%+ of British Muslims belief that Jews commited 9/11 to cause issues for muslims?

 

 

Although even more bizarrely something like 80% of British Muslims believe Jews murdered Diana.

 

Source?

 

Channel 4 did UK wide survey a year or two ago (although they've done a few now), along with a documentary on issues like that.

 

 

In the documentary they were interviewing some 18-23ish year old asian lads and they genuinely believed that it must have been Jews that killed Diana (as they couldn't let her marry a Muslim) and their survey found it to be a very widely held believe among muslims in the UK (and I guess the world).

 

Actually the bit about 9/11 has been shown a few times in surveys both here and abroad. I think it was something like 25% believed 7/7 was justified and 33% believed Sharia Law should apply in the UK.

[NJS 4386]

He was wrong the Romans killed Jesus. Crucifixion was a Roman punishment if the Jews killed him he would have been stoned to death. All the earliest christians were Jewish it was a Jewish sect. Also the state of Palestine forgets it did offer to help the Nazi's eradicate the Jews this was before the Israeli state was thought of. There was also a Muslim battalion in the SS.

 

I never got why Christians considered the Jews to be "Christ killers" apart from an excuse for hatred when the whole premise is that he was sent to die - surely the whos and the hows shouldn't matter.

 

I think the Catholic Chuech only lifted the "warrant" against the Jews post WWII - the "crime" was a big thing in the Nazi propaganda.

[Fop 1]

He was wrong the Romans killed Jesus. Crucifixion was a Roman punishment if the Jews killed him he would have been stoned to death. All the earliest christians were Jewish it was a Jewish sect. Also the state of Palestine forgets it did offer to help the Nazi's eradicate the Jews this was before the Israeli state was thought of. There was also a Muslim battalion in the SS.

 

I never got why Christians considered the Jews to be "Christ killers" apart from an excuse for hatred when the whole premise is that he was sent to die - surely the whos and the hows shouldn't matter.

 

I think the Catholic Chuech only lifted the "warrant" against the Jews post WWII - the "crime" was a big thing in the Nazi propaganda.

 

Politics really (as most religious issues are). That has being raised and dismissed plenty of times in the last 2000 years as politics dictated.

 

It's not a lot different to trying to blame people today, whose great-great grandparents wouldn't have been alive, never mind themselves, for Atlantic slavery and such for mostly political reasons/maneuvering.

 

 

Which really gets back to WHY all such things really do need a good mocking (as well as questioning and criticism) every now and again.

[Meenzer 15531]

It's not a lot different to trying to blame people today, whose great-great grandparents wouldn't have been alive, never mind themselves, for Atlantic slavery and such for mostly political reasons/maneuvering.

On a similar note, I wonder if the press will get so hot and bothered the next time a bunch of British football fans aim some Nazi-related chants at the Germans...

[TheInspiration 1]

To be honest when I espouse mockery I would much rather have a good argument based on some kind of "facts"- I've enjoyed a couple on here with The Inspiration and Isegrim which I think (and hope) caused no deep offence.

 

Unfortunately I do sometimes express my frustration with a "how can you be so stupid" which doesn't help.

You've never caused offence, not to me anyway.

 

However I do like to point out Christianity is a rational religion. I'm sure you can nitpick parts of the Bible and point out contradictions (which are often exaggerated or misinterpreted) and you can raise various other questions surrounding it (as many Christians like myself do), but it's still very much a rational religion. I've come quite a long way through a personal relationship with God and it depresses me that that always has to be considered a case of hallucination/madness from those who are making a priori claims about the Christian belief. I was quite doubtful of my religion a while ago and often thought it seemed ridiculous in places, but having read some rather thought-provoking apologetics, many of my views have been restored and I must say they go to show Christianity is not some made up rubbish from an ancient text.

 

I think it's very easy to mock religious belief, as everyone does. Personally I'm not too concerned really as I can happily say that many comments people make are actually wrong and poor attempts at sounding contraversial, and let's face it - they're harmless. I'm open to hear intelligent but non-aggressive questions to Christianity (or religion in general), but it's the more abusive and arrogant comments about the religion and it's followers I don't like. In addition, many Christians irritate me, and I would easily have a go at criticising them, however on forums it's not normally long before my own religion gets hurled abuse at and is considered man made and stupid etc, which I don;t want to put up with, while mocking/criticising members of it.

Edited September 2, 2007 by TheInspiration

[Tom 14011]

Im a Roman Catholic.

 

I love Jesus and god and the holy spirit!

 

Leave it be i say!

[Fop 1]

To be honest when I espouse mockery I would much rather have a good argument based on some kind of "facts"- I've enjoyed a couple on here with The Inspiration and Isegrim which I think (and hope) caused no deep offence.

 

Unfortunately I do sometimes express my frustration with a "how can you be so stupid" which doesn't help.

You've never caused offence, not to me anyway.

 

However I do like to point out Christianity is a rational religion. I'm sure you can nitpick parts of the Bible and point out contradictions (which are often exaggerated or misinterpreted) and you can raise various other questions surrounding it (as many Christians like myself do), but it's still very much a rational religion. I've come quite a long way through a personal relationship with God and it depresses me that that always has to be considered a case of hallucination/madness from those who are making a priori claims about the Christian belief. I was quite doubtful of my religion a while ago and often thought it seemed ridiculous in places, but having read some rather thought-provoking apologetics, many of my views have been restored and I must say they go to show Christianity is not some made up rubbish from an ancient text.

 

I think it's very easy to mock religious belief, as everyone does. Personally I'm not too concerned really as I can happily say that many comments people make are actually wrong and poor attempts at sounding contraversial, and let's face it - they're harmless. I'm open to hear intelligent but non-aggressive questions to Christianity (or religion in general), but it's the more abusive and arrogant comments about the religion and it's followers I don't like. In addition, many Christians irritate me, and I would easily have a go at criticising them, however on forums it's not normally long before my own religion gets hurled abuse at and is considered man made and stupid etc, which I don;t want to put up with, while mocking/criticising members of it.

 

 

One problem is it's impossible to "argue" with faith.

 

By its very nature it is immune to logic, argument, reason, whatever, and and even grows stronger by being "tested" by such.

 

 

 

 

Although I think a lot of the aggressive stuff these days comes more as a direct backlash to US evangelical attacks on Evolution and things like that. They use some low and dirty tactics to try and attack something which has no real conflict with religion except in its most medieval of interpretations (the Bible and Evolution is no more mutually exclusive than the Bible and Geology and/or Physics are).

 

That is there's nothing to stop a Christian accepting Evolution as the mechanism through which "God" works (and equally there's nothing in Evolution that denies "God"), and any rejection of it is frankly based only on bloody minded ignorance and fear.

[Happy Face 29]

It's the more abusive and arrogant comments about the religion and it's followers I don't like. In addition, many Christians irritate me, and I would easily have a go at criticising them, however on forums it's not normally long before my own religion gets hurled abuse at and is considered man made and stupid etc, which I don;t want to put up with, while mocking/criticising members of it.

 

Rest easy in the knowledge that those people are going to hell.

[NJS 4386]

That is there's nothing to stop a Christian accepting Evolution as the mechanism through which "God" works (and equally there's nothing in Evolution that denies "God")

 

I accept that premise but still haven't seen a good explanation for such an acceptance - the mass extinctions and dead ends for our ancestors in our past suggest to me a very "disjointed" plan at best.

 

I think even if it were the case thats a long way from the all powerful God most believers define.

 

 

On the ratiionality of Christianity I would go back to the biblical "truth" - the base premise of that religion is Christ dying for our sins which results from the fall - that fall (ie the Garden of Eden story) would then have to be "true" for the faith to make sense. This brings us back to Genesis - if christians now describe it as a "metaphor" or whatever rather than fact where does that leave the original sin?

[Jusoda Kid 1]

All religion should be banned imo, root of all evil

[Happy Face 29]

All religion should be banned imo, root of all evil

 

Not sure if religion itself is the root of all evil so much as people not accepting other faiths. When the UN pronounce religion is outlawed and send in the soldiers to close down the churches, synagogues, mosques etc I think it might kick off a bit more than it ever has before.

[Geordieboyo 0]

All religion should be banned imo, root of all evil

 

Not sure if religion itself is the root of all evil so much as people not accepting other faiths. When the UN pronounce religion is outlawed and send in the soldiers to close down the churches, synagogues, mosques etc I think it might kick off a bit more than it ever has before.

 

Start with the pacifists, ease yourself in gently

[Jusoda Kid 1]

All religion should be banned imo, root of all evil

 

Not sure if religion itself is the root of all evil so much as people not accepting other faiths. When the UN pronounce religion is outlawed and send in the soldiers to close down the churches, synagogues, mosques etc I think it might kick off a bit more than it ever has before.

 

Make good television, probably be as easy as implementing the smoking ban tbh

[TheInspiration 1]

That is there's nothing to stop a Christian accepting Evolution as the mechanism through which "God" works (and equally there's nothing in Evolution that denies "God")

 

I accept that premise but still haven't seen a good explanation for such an acceptance - the mass extinctions and dead ends for our ancestors in our past suggest to me a very "disjointed" plan at best.

 

I think even if it were the case thats a long way from the all powerful God most believers define.

 

 

On the ratiionality of Christianity I would go back to the biblical "truth" - the base premise of that religion is Christ dying for our sins which results from the fall - that fall (ie the Garden of Eden story) would then have to be "true" for the faith to make sense. This brings us back to Genesis - if christians now describe it as a "metaphor" or whatever rather than fact where does that leave the original sin?

I'm quite sure that the creation story as we read it in the Bible is metaphorical, however I do not think this means Adam and Eve can't have existed, perhaps a bit more than 6000 years ago, and maybe not quite as they were presented in Genesis. I see the story as rather poetic and mystical in its language, however there is an important story there displayed regarding sin. Personally I think it makes sense to see the "fall of man" as representative of how all humans sin, not just Adam performing the original sin.

 

Also I admit you have a point about evolution there and I've wondered about that myself. There's no denying evolution does not wipe out the possibility of any higher being, however I very much understand those who think it makes any god "redundant". Either way there's a lot about this universe science has to answer and I currently see no reason why believing in the Christian God is silly as there are a number of different reasons for it.

[TheInspiration 1]

All religion should be banned imo, root of all evil

How is it the root of all evil? Look at all the evil caused in the previous century - I don't think Hitler, Stalin, Mao etc were influenced by any religion - at least no religion of their own. Edited September 3, 2007 by TheInspiration

[manc-mag 1]

All religion should be banned imo, root of all evil

How is it the root of all evil? Look at all the evil caused in the previous century - I don't think Hitler, Stalin, Mao etc were influenced by any religion.

 

Hitler wasn't fond of the Jews like it has to be said.

 

I know what you're getting at tho.