José Enrique

[Craig 6682]

CT need I point out he's under fucking contract for another 14 months. That means it IS the club's decision. They have another 8 months of 1st dibs negotiation but they're clearly not interested in offering him anything remotely acceptable.

 

And I don't buy this bollocks that he's wanting out and not one single offer would be good enough to change his mind. It totally goes against the actions of a player who has taken the city, the club and the fans to his heart.

 

Your Ashley apologism is frankly getting ridiculous.

 

He's skidders in disguise.

 

Why are you logged on here? You're depriving a village of their missing idiot.

[Phil 6]

Did the club mislead the press, public and fans of Newcastle United as regards Kevin Keegan having the final say on players, or did they not? The judgment indicates that they did.

 

Sure the carefully worded Keegan statement is correct and factual, but that doesn't change the fact its only about the loan signing of Nacho Gonzalez.

 

It's regularly taken well out of context and passed off as if Ashley and co lied about other things, which they didn't.

 

Do you actually think Nacho Gonzalez is why Keegan left?

[Holden McGroin 6607]

CT need I point out he's under fucking contract for another 14 months. That means it IS the club's decision. They have another 8 months of 1st dibs negotiation but they're clearly not interested in offering him anything remotely acceptable.

 

And I don't buy this bollocks that he's wanting out and not one single offer would be good enough to change his mind. It totally goes against the actions of a player who has taken the city, the club and the fans to his heart.

 

Your Ashley apologism is frankly getting ridiculous.

 

He's skidders in disguise.

 

Why are you logged on here? You're depriving a village of their missing idiot.

 

Is Flair actually Deadman ?

[Phil 6]

Utter bollocks. All of them points are referring to the Gonzalez loan deal. Keegan won on a technicality - i.e. he didn't have final say on a nobody loan deal. Keegan didn't walk over the loan deal and everyone knows it. The absence of Milner from the entire tribunal speaks volumes.

 

Whatever you say pal, it doesn't alter the findings of the tribunal, however much you try and stretch or twist the points

 

What did Ashley do with the Milner money?...there were players lined up by all accounts, but you'll likely argue that one as well.

 

Twist and stretch.

 

I think you'll find Keegan based his entire case on the Gonzalez signing.

 

He [Keegan] says that on 31 August 2008, the Club breached that term by signing a Uruguayan player, Ignacio Gonzalez, expressly against his wishes, that this breach amounted to a repudiation of his Contract and that he was therefore entitled to resign which he did on 4 September 2008.

 

...and he was after £25 million in damages.

 

 

 

On the other point I'm not sure where you think the Milner money went, but we've posted a loss since 2007 so it wasn't into Ashleys pocket.

Edited April 12, 2011 by Phil

[ewerk 30642]

CT need I point out he's under fucking contract for another 14 months. That means it IS the club's decision. They have another 8 months of 1st dibs negotiation but they're clearly not interested in offering him anything remotely acceptable.

 

And I don't buy this bollocks that he's wanting out and not one single offer would be good enough to change his mind. It totally goes against the actions of a player who has taken the city, the club and the fans to his heart.

 

Your Ashley apologism is frankly getting ridiculous.

 

He's skidders in disguise.

 

Why are you logged on here? You're depriving a village of their missing idiot.

 

Is Flair actually Deadman ?

 

Oi! There's no need no have a pop at Deadman.

[Christmas Tree 4728]

What I mean is whether he stays or goes is out of Ashleys hands.

 

If a "bigger" club who or already in the CL or looking as though they are heading there, come in for a player who has ambitions to be in the CL then he's going to go.

 

We are neither of those.

 

of course its in Ashleys hands ! If the club isn't attractive to top players, he's the only person who can make it so....

 

 

If you want to drag every discussion back to ashleys an unambitious cunt and were not as good as halls and shepherd then your discussions are not for me. Stuck record.

 

You think you are teaching us all something we dont know. Just because we are where we are, doesnt mean we cant discuss the day to day goings on in the current context.

 

here we go again...

 

 

 

Not with me.

[Christmas Tree 4728]

CT need I point out he's under fucking contract for another 14 months. That means it IS the club's decision. They have another 8 months of 1st dibs negotiation but they're clearly not interested in offering him anything remotely acceptable.

 

And I don't buy this bollocks that he's wanting out and not one single offer would be good enough to change his mind. It totally goes against the actions of a player who has taken the city, the club and the fans to his heart.

 

Your Ashley apologism is frankly getting ridiculous.

 

Dear me. Craig you are long enough in the tooth to know that 14 month left on the contract means the player is in control and no one else. He can stay and go for free next year or the club gets something this year. I know you know this.

 

It is on public record from the club and Jose that the club tried to open negotiations and were knocked back......Until we were safe. (Believe that if you will).

 

Of course he wants out. It looks as though he's already being tapped up by Liverpool which ties in perfectly with his lack lustre displays of late.

 

And as for the bollocks in the last line.......Two words Andy Carrol.

 

Ashley has dropped many a bollocks but there is nowt you can do to prevent an ambition player from wanting to move on to bigger and better things. It happens at EVERY club.

 

Whether its spurs losing berbatov, Liverpool losing Torres or Man U losing Ronaldo and Teves.

[Guest Your Name Here]

Nope they are definitely from the Keegan camp. I know this because its been mis-quoted from day one;

 

Kevin Keegan reacted to the news by releasing a statement in which he said: ....... 5.2 The club admitted to the tribunal that it repeatedly and intentionally misled the press, public and the fans of Newcastle United.

http://www.nufc.com/2010-11html/2009-10-02...-nufc-ours.html

 

 

If you read the full tribunal transcripts you will see that Keegan made that statement because Wise et al said on several occasions Keegan had final say, which they confirmed was to keep the fans happy. This promise was only broken with the loan signing of Gonzalez. Note the absence of the Milner sale, so it must have been agreed upon.

 

From the judgment:

 

27. First, the Club did not, we find, explain in any way to Mr Keegan that they felt compelled to make these statements [that KK had the final say] notwithstanding that they were untrue or to clarify and confirm with him that despite what the Club was saying publicly in these statements, he did not have the final say. Nor did the Club speak to him in advance and explain to him what they were proposing to do and the reasons for it. If the Club's explanation were true, we fail to understand why they did not do so.

 

28. Secondly, we do not understand why the Club could not set out publicly and truthfully what they maintain was the true position. After all, Mr Ashley's vision for the Club involved a change to a Continental structure and it is clear from the evidence that there are managers of some Continental clubs who do not have the final say. We do not understand why the Club felt unable to make this clear publicly from the outset, regardless of what Mr Keegan himself may have said.

 

29. Thirdly, for the Club to have made these statements, when they were, according to the Club, untrue, was, in our view, simply to store up trouble for the future.

 

In other words, Ashley and co were bullshitting KK from the start and failed to make their true intentions publicly clear. In other words, they intentionally misled the press, public, and fans of Newcastle United. (And KK.)

 

 

2 + 2 = 5

 

Utter bollocks. All of them points are referring to the Gonzalez loan deal. Keegan won on a technicality - i.e. he didn't have final say on a nobody loan deal. Keegan didn't walk over the loan deal and everyone knows it. The absence of Milner from the entire tribunal speaks volumes.

That’s how legal proceedings work. Rulings have to be backed up with provable evidence; or technicalities as you call them. It doesn’t mean there weren’t more instances of KK being undermined; it just means the Gonzalez incident was the best example.

 

 

“Although we heard a considerable amount of evidence as to events which took place in the months which followed Mr Keegan’s appointment, in view of our conclusions, we can proceed at once to the events which culminated in Mr Keegan’s resignation on 4 September 2008”

 

 

Based on everything the tribunal said it’s far more likely they focused on an event that proved a wider principle, not that everything was hunky fucking dory until Gonzalez popped up on YouTube.

Edited April 12, 2011 by Your Name Here

[Guest Your Name Here]

CT need I point out he's under fucking contract for another 14 months. That means it IS the club's decision. They have another 8 months of 1st dibs negotiation but they're clearly not interested in offering him anything remotely acceptable.

 

And I don't buy this bollocks that he's wanting out and not one single offer would be good enough to change his mind. It totally goes against the actions of a player who has taken the city, the club and the fans to his heart.

 

Your Ashley apologism is frankly getting ridiculous.

 

Dear me. Craig you are long enough in the tooth to know that 14 month left on the contract means the player is in control and no one else. He can stay and go for free next year or the club gets something this year. I know you know this.

 

It is on public record from the club and Jose that the club tried to open negotiations and were knocked back......Until we were safe. (Believe that if you will).

 

Of course he wants out. It looks as though he's already being tapped up by Liverpool which ties in perfectly with his lack lustre displays of late.

 

And as for the bollocks in the last line.......Two words Andy Carrol.

 

Ashley has dropped many a bollocks but there is nowt you can do to prevent an ambition player from wanting to move on to bigger and better things. It happens at EVERY club.

 

Whether its spurs losing berbatov, Liverpool losing Torres or Man U losing Ronaldo and Teves.

You can offer them a comparable wage, match their ambition, not get your helicopter ready to fly them away.

[PaddockLad 17285]

Utter bollocks. All of them points are referring to the Gonzalez loan deal. Keegan won on a technicality - i.e. he didn't have final say on a nobody loan deal. Keegan didn't walk over the loan deal and everyone knows it. The absence of Milner from the entire tribunal speaks volumes.

 

Whatever you say pal, it doesn't alter the findings of the tribunal, however much you try and stretch or twist the points

 

What did Ashley do with the Milner money?...there were players lined up by all accounts, but you'll likely argue that one as well.

 

Twist and stretch.

 

I think you'll find Keegan based his entire case on the Gonzalez signing.

 

He [Keegan] says that on 31 August 2008, the Club breached that term by signing a Uruguayan player, Ignacio Gonzalez, expressly against his wishes, that this breach amounted to a repudiation of his Contract and that he was therefore entitled to resign which he did on 4 September 2008.

 

...and he was after £25 million in damages.

 

 

 

On the other point I'm not sure where you think the Milner money went, but we've posted a loss since 2007 so it wasn't into Ashleys pocket.

 

Soooo......you claim the tribuanl hinged on one eminently provable episode of individiuals at the club (i.e. Wise and Llambias) undermineing KK to the point that his posistion was untenable?....They went out of their way to say that he had final say on transfers in the media, then the day before deadline day KK found that the club had " repeatedly and intentionally misled the press, public and the fans of Newcastle United." Oh and KK himself too.

 

Not really seeing your point here. You appear to be saying KK only won because the tribunal based the findings on the evidence available.

 

KK didnt get a penny more than he knew that he would be entitled to before the hearing.

 

And the Milner money didnt go on the players KK wanted, some of it went on a player Dennis Wise wanted to bring in as a "favour" to some parasites in South America, which is kinda the point KK was making when he walked.

[ChezGiven 0]

"Rulings have to be backed up with provable evidence; or technicalities as you call them"

 

So why not use a better example? Surely the tribunal would only focus on the Gonzalez deal if there was evidence which didnt exist for other transfers. I have to admit, i wasn't aware of the perspective on events that Phil is putting forward

[Craig 6682]

CT need I point out he's under fucking contract for another 14 months. That means it IS the club's decision. They have another 8 months of 1st dibs negotiation but they're clearly not interested in offering him anything remotely acceptable.

 

And I don't buy this bollocks that he's wanting out and not one single offer would be good enough to change his mind. It totally goes against the actions of a player who has taken the city, the club and the fans to his heart.

 

Your Ashley apologism is frankly getting ridiculous.

 

Dear me. Craig you are long enough in the tooth to know that 14 month left on the contract means the player is in control and no one else. He can stay and go for free next year or the club gets something this year. I know you know this.

 

It is on public record from the club and Jose that the club tried to open negotiations and were knocked back......Until we were safe. (Believe that if you will).

 

Of course he wants out. It looks as though he's already being tapped up by Liverpool which ties in perfectly with his lack lustre displays of late.

 

And as for the bollocks in the last line.......Two words Andy Carrol.

 

Ashley has dropped many a bollocks but there is nowt you can do to prevent an ambition player from wanting to move on to bigger and better things. It happens at EVERY club.

 

Whether its spurs losing berbatov, Liverpool losing Torres or Man U losing Ronaldo and Teves.

You can offer them a comparable wage, match their ambition, not get your helicopter ready to fly them away.

 

Or you convince them you want to build a squad around them worthy of their talents furthermore convincing them that moving on is the wrong move. Oh but silly me, that'd cost more and goes right against Ashley's 'model' for NUFC.

 

To cut a long story short CT, you're readily accepting that we are indeed a selling club. And that, quite frankly is the saddest thing of all.

 

And finally, the club IS in control. What is absolutely clear is Liverpool need a LB this summer. If NUFC firmly close the door and it isn't Enrique, they'll go elsewhere and that avenue will close - he's not a player that they'll wait 12 months for like Madrid did with Ronaldo. We should be concentrating on ensuring that NUFC is his best option, not simply trying to generate as much cash as we possibly can for him - money that I am totally convinced will not be re-invested.

[Christmas Tree 4728]

CT need I point out he's under fucking contract for another 14 months. That means it IS the club's decision. They have another 8 months of 1st dibs negotiation but they're clearly not interested in offering him anything remotely acceptable.

 

And I don't buy this bollocks that he's wanting out and not one single offer would be good enough to change his mind. It totally goes against the actions of a player who has taken the city, the club and the fans to his heart.

 

Your Ashley apologism is frankly getting ridiculous.

 

Dear me. Craig you are long enough in the tooth to know that 14 month left on the contract means the player is in control and no one else. He can stay and go for free next year or the club gets something this year. I know you know this.

 

It is on public record from the club and Jose that the club tried to open negotiations and were knocked back......Until we were safe. (Believe that if you will).

 

Of course he wants out. It looks as though he's already being tapped up by Liverpool which ties in perfectly with his lack lustre displays of late.

 

And as for the bollocks in the last line.......Two words Andy Carrol.

 

Ashley has dropped many a bollocks but there is nowt you can do to prevent an ambition player from wanting to move on to bigger and better things. It happens at EVERY club.

 

Whether its spurs losing berbatov, Liverpool losing Torres or Man U losing Ronaldo and Teves.

You can offer them a comparable wage, match their ambition, not get your helicopter ready to fly them away.

 

Or you convince them you want to build a squad around them worthy of their talents furthermore convincing them that moving on is the wrong move. Oh but silly me, that'd cost more and goes right against Ashley's 'model' for NUFC.

 

To cut a long story short CT, you're readily accepting that we are indeed a selling club. And that, quite frankly is the saddest thing of all.

 

And finally, the club IS in control. What is absolutely clear is Liverpool need a LB this summer. If NUFC firmly close the door and it isn't Enrique, they'll go elsewhere and that avenue will close - he's not a player that they'll wait 12 months for like Madrid did with Ronaldo. We should be concentrating on ensuring that NUFC is his best option, not simply trying to generate as much cash as we possibly can for him - money that I am totally convinced will not be re-invested.

 

Berbatov, Torres, Teves, Ronaldo.......etc etc

[LeazesMag 0]

A canny post CT, I have also just come to accept we're never going to seriously challenge the top 5 ever, unless we get some daft arab oil exporter who fancies us as his toy. It's impossible to break the top 5 without bankrupting yourself, Spurs are apparently in a bit of financial bother already and that's all for what, one Champions League campaign? They still lack a goalscorer too which is another £20m gone chasing something they may not even get. It's just not financially viable.

 

I personally would love the Premier League to just destroy itself so we can properly regulate and structure English football and give the game back to the common fan, but I guess this is taking things off on a completely different tangent...

 

Challenging 6th should be the aim of NUFC and SAFC, I think that's possible without spending 100's of million. That and a cup run now and again would do just nicely.

 

For a mackem thats pretty good post like.

 

But

 

Sunderland should not and will not be challenging for the same things as we should be. Your a club not even two thirds our size. Not half as colourful history and nowhere near the same class of fans (on the whole) and lets be honest....sunderlands a bit of a shithole.

Both clubs were fairly evenly matched until Keegan and Sir John Hall propelled us forward at great pace at a time when SAFC were going nowhere under Bob Murray. The relative league positions may have converged but the gulf in status remains. I wouldn’t be too smug though. NUFC are living on past ‘glories’ and the way we’re being run under FMA it wouldn’t be a surprise to see us overtaken by SAFC on and off the pitch over the next five years.

 

The kind of complacency your displaying is exactly why NUFC are in danger of sleepwalking into mediocrity again.

 

this will be completely lost on him.

[LeazesMag 0]

CT need I point out he's under fucking contract for another 14 months. That means it IS the club's decision. They have another 8 months of 1st dibs negotiation but they're clearly not interested in offering him anything remotely acceptable.

 

And I don't buy this bollocks that he's wanting out and not one single offer would be good enough to change his mind. It totally goes against the actions of a player who has taken the city, the club and the fans to his heart.

 

Your Ashley apologism is frankly getting ridiculous.

 

Dear me. Craig you are long enough in the tooth to know that 14 month left on the contract means the player is in control and no one else. He can stay and go for free next year or the club gets something this year. I know you know this.

 

It is on public record from the club and Jose that the club tried to open negotiations and were knocked back......Until we were safe. (Believe that if you will).

 

Of course he wants out. It looks as though he's already being tapped up by Liverpool which ties in perfectly with his lack lustre displays of late.

 

And as for the bollocks in the last line.......Two words Andy Carrol.

 

Ashley has dropped many a bollocks but there is nowt you can do to prevent an ambition player from wanting to move on to bigger and better things. It happens at EVERY club.

 

Whether its spurs losing berbatov, Liverpool losing Torres or Man U losing Ronaldo and Teves.

You can offer them a comparable wage, match their ambition, not get your helicopter ready to fly them away.

 

Or you convince them you want to build a squad around them worthy of their talents furthermore convincing them that moving on is the wrong move. Oh but silly me, that'd cost more and goes right against Ashley's 'model' for NUFC.

 

To cut a long story short CT, you're readily accepting that we are indeed a selling club. And that, quite frankly is the saddest thing of all.

 

And finally, the club IS in control. What is absolutely clear is Liverpool need a LB this summer. If NUFC firmly close the door and it isn't Enrique, they'll go elsewhere and that avenue will close - he's not a player that they'll wait 12 months for like Madrid did with Ronaldo. We should be concentrating on ensuring that NUFC is his best option, not simply trying to generate as much cash as we possibly can for him - money that I am totally convinced will not be re-invested.

 

Berbatov, Torres, Teves, Ronaldo.......etc etc

 

the most sad post in the history of message boards. EVER.

[OTF 7297]

Ashley has dropped many a bollocks but there is nowt you can do to prevent an ambition player from wanting to move on to bigger and better things. It happens at EVERY club.

 

Look at Carroll, he was contracted until 2015 meaning that he would not even be permitted to talk to another club until January of 2015. Regardless of what he wanted the club could have very easily prevented him from even talking to Liverpool. That's 3 and a half more full seasons we had guaranteed of Andy Carroll being at the club before he could even talk to someone else.

 

In fact if Liverpool have talked to Enrique already it will have to have been with the express consent of Newcastle United or else it will have been illegal. The club may have offered Enrique a new contract, but there is nothing anywhere stipulating the terms of that contract. For all we know it's likely that he would get a pay cut, which quite frankly would be ridiculous as he has come along so far as a player since he was signed.

 

If Ashley was serious about wanting to bring success to Newcastle United and taking the club in a forward direction then the money from the sale of Andy Carroll, plus the retention of our best players could have us improving as a squad next season. He isn't though so Enrique will effectively have no option but to leave if he wants to win something in his career and/or be paid at appropriate market value. There's no way you could paint this as a case of Enrique doing anything wrong by the club.

[LeazesMag 0]

Ashleys 5 year blueprint for the football club all going according to "plan".

[Kevin 1]

WWSD?

[Christmas Tree 4728]

This not rocket science fellas

 

We are not a top four club nor are we aspiring to be a top four club any time soon.

 

Therefore

 

Ambitious players will want to move up the ladder if they get an opportunity.

 

Thats just the way things are in 2011 at NUFC.

 

We are a steady as it goes club that is hoping to find some stability in the top flight and gradually improve the squad over the coming years. I think the club have even stated this.

 

I dont believe there is one poster who doesn't wish things were different and we would all like a geordie trillionaire who would be willing to bank roll a top four push.

 

Our current demise started under Shepherd and snowballed under Ashley.

 

Surely everyone on here just about agrees with the bits in bold?

 

I would much rather discuss where we are and what is happening without having to revisit the bold bits every time.

 

For all the past wrongs, the club appear to be trying to create some stability with tying down players and staff. They are also getting the finances of the club in order which will help over the coming years. While we are not going to compete in the short term with the top six, the actions being taken should give us an advantage over the other "also rans" in this league.

 

Our best players will be cherry picked and we will cherry pick of those below us.

 

This is the way of the world for the immediate future. Liking or not liking it is immaterial. Its what it is.

[Guest Your Name Here]

"Rulings have to be backed up with provable evidence; or technicalities as you call them"

 

So why not use a better example? Surely the tribunal would only focus on the Gonzalez deal if there was evidence which didnt exist for other transfers. I have to admit, i wasn't aware of the perspective on events that Phil is putting forward

Presumably because neither party had been recording the previous discussions/debates/ arguments?

 

"Although we heard a considerable amount of evidence as to events which took place in the months which followed Mr Keegan’s appointment, in view of our conclusions, we can proceed at once to the events which culminated in Mr Keegan’s resignation on 4 September 2008”

 

What do you think these conclusions were and how did they arrive at them?

[Guest Your Name Here]

This not rocket science fellas

 

We are not a top four club nor are we aspiring to be a top four club any time soon.

 

Therefore

 

Ambitious players will want to move up the ladder if they get an opportunity.

 

Thats just the way things are in 2011 at NUFC.

 

We are a steady as it goes club that is hoping to find some stability in the top flight and gradually improve the squad over the coming years. I think the club have even stated this.

 

I dont believe there is one poster who doesn't wish things were different and we would all like a geordie trillionaire who would be willing to bank roll a top four push.

 

Our current demise started under Shepherd and snowballed under Ashley.

 

Surely everyone on here just about agrees with the bits in bold?

 

I would much rather discuss where we are and what is happening without having to revisit the bold bits every time.

 

For all the past wrongs, the club appear to be trying to create some stability with tying down players and staff. They are also getting the finances of the club in order which will help over the coming years. While we are not going to compete in the short term with the top six, the actions being taken should give us an advantage over the other "also rans" in this league.

 

Our best players will be cherry picked and we will cherry pick of those below us.

 

This is the way of the world for the immediate future. Liking or not liking it is immaterial. Its what it is.

Not entirely but it’s not worth debating the nuances.

 

It’s the present that matters, and presently all the evidence suggests Ashley has no interest in NUFC the football club. No desire to see progress beyond the balance sheet. There are a lot of supporters who don’t think this is acceptable and won’t accept Ashley’s continued ownership of our club until he proves he’s interested in more than getting his money back.

 

This doesn’t mean he has to run the club without any consideration to its long term financial stability, but it does mean fighting to hold on to the players who can take us forward.

[OTF 7297]

So under the current regime what we really want is kinda decent players to come here and have a moderate level of success.

[Phil 6]

"Rulings have to be backed up with provable evidence; or technicalities as you call them"

 

So why not use a better example? Surely the tribunal would only focus on the Gonzalez deal if there was evidence which didnt exist for other transfers. I have to admit, i wasn't aware of the perspective on events that Phil is putting forward

Presumably because neither party had been recording the previous discussions/debates/ arguments?

 

"Although we heard a considerable amount of evidence as to events which took place in the months which followed Mr Keegan’s appointment, in view of our conclusions, we can proceed at once to the events which culminated in Mr Keegan’s resignation on 4 September 2008”

 

What do you think these conclusions were and how did they arrive at them?

 

There conclusions were that everything prior to Gonzalez was irrelevant. i.e. there was no valid reason for Keegan to leave.

 

They do actually go back to mention Keegan was aware that Wise would be appointed as DoF before he took on the job, but say this has no bearing on who has final say.

 

You appear to have read the document, but have no understanding of the fact the whole thing is centred around Gonzalez. Did you read the unedited PDF or a summary on a blog - such as nufc.com?

 

 

http://www.premierleague.com/staticFiles/c...6~147392,00.pdf

[peasepud 59]

For all the past wrongs, the club appear to be trying to create some stability with tying down players and staff. They are also getting the finances of the club in order which will help over the coming years. While we are not going to compete in the short term with the top six, the actions being taken should give us an advantage over the other "also rans" in this league.

Sorry but in a thread about yet another player leaving you talk about us tying players down?

 

Where? Ive not seen any example of this.

 

We may be extending contracts but only an idiot would assume this is simply to ensure the player stays with us.

[Toonpack 9453]

He wouldnt have needed to put as much as £250 mill into the club if it wasnt for the mistakes he made though

 

I agree, it'd have only been about £200-220 Mill ish

Edited April 13, 2011 by Toonpack