What should happen...

[manc-mag 1]

Allardyce is off to Citeh apparently.

[Guest alex]

Allardyce is off to Citeh apparently.

TBH that's where I thought he'd go when he resigned.

[Bombadil 0]

Allardyce is off to Citeh apparently.

 

The Guardian seems to think he is not in the Thai consortium's plans.

[manc-mag 1]

Allardyce is off to Citeh apparently.

 

The Guardian seems to think he is not in the Thai consortium's plans.

 

Unless they have a man already recruited on a pre-contract, I don't think that story carries much weight. Fact is there would be a proven manager available for appointment and they would have to consider his application. Indeed his application would probably be the strongest.

[Fop 1]

The thing is assuming Allerdyce (or any one else) is appointed and doesn't get consistent champions league qualifications within 2 seasons they'll just be sacked.

 

I think people are being a little hopeful that a Robson turn around could happen again, or at least happen as quickly, and if it doesn't I'd be loathe to bet on any manager surviving long enough to do so under FFS.

 

It's a bit like Chelski really (although at least their the VAST amounts of cash give a bit more reason for the win now or bust attitude).

I don't agree with that. All Allardyce would have to do would be to have the club moving in the right direction. That's the key imo.

 

That might be the case for a season, maybe two, but FFS isn't the most patient of chairmen (that's one of the main things Robson credits with allowing him to build his Ipswich team, time and money, with the chairman basically showing support but keeping his nose out of the football - I suppose a bit in the mold of Gibson or maybe even Quinn).

 

If, for example, FFS was chairman of Everton Moyes would have been sacked long ago (and there's several other examples I can think of)

 

I mean can you really see him appointing someone on a 10 year contract with a 10 year plan (al la Allerdyce at Bolton)?

 

Shepherd listens to public opinion. If people see that a new manager gets things moving in the right directon on and off the pitch, they will be patient. Shepherd only starts panicking when public opinion turns against the manager or indeed himself, which it rightly did with Souness and which it rightly does now.

 

Just look at Spurs. Their fans have seen for a couple of years now that their club is moving in the right direction. They don't expect instant success because they know they're on the right track. We're not.

 

I'm not so sure, if someone came in and got us 10th next year and 9th the year after there'd be calls for the sack I'm sure.

 

If someone could come in and instantly push us into constant UEFA cup qualification then they might get the time (and money) for a real crack at consistent champions league qualification, but that's a huge ask at the moment without spending some serious money.

[Fop 1]

That's a bit different from your initial point though re: achieving consistant Champions League qualification within two seasons. Looking like getting consistent Uefa Cup qualification within 2-3 seasons (via the league rather than the Inter-Toto backdoor route) is probably more like it. I agree about Shepherd not looking at the bigger/long-term picture (generally) but don't see that as justification for keeping someone as shite as Roeder especially if it means getting someone like Allardyce.

 

It's pretty much what Robson got the sack for not doing.

[Guest alex]

The thing is assuming Allerdyce (or any one else) is appointed and doesn't get consistent champions league qualifications within 2 seasons they'll just be sacked.

 

I think people are being a little hopeful that a Robson turn around could happen again, or at least happen as quickly, and if it doesn't I'd be loathe to bet on any manager surviving long enough to do so under FFS.

 

It's a bit like Chelski really (although at least their the VAST amounts of cash give a bit more reason for the win now or bust attitude).

I don't agree with that. All Allardyce would have to do would be to have the club moving in the right direction. That's the key imo.

 

That might be the case for a season, maybe two, but FFS isn't the most patient of chairmen (that's one of the main things Robson credits with allowing him to build his Ipswich team, time and money, with the chairman basically showing support but keeping his nose out of the football - I suppose a bit in the mold of Gibson or maybe even Quinn).

 

If, for example, FFS was chairman of Everton Moyes would have been sacked long ago (and there's several other examples I can think of)

 

I mean can you really see him appointing someone on a 10 year contract with a 10 year plan (al la Allerdyce at Bolton)?

 

Shepherd listens to public opinion. If people see that a new manager gets things moving in the right directon on and off the pitch, they will be patient. Shepherd only starts panicking when public opinion turns against the manager or indeed himself, which it rightly did with Souness and which it rightly does now.

 

Just look at Spurs. Their fans have seen for a couple of years now that their club is moving in the right direction. They don't expect instant success because they know they're on the right track. We're not.

 

I'm not so sure, if someone came in and got us 10th next year and 9th the year after there'd be calls for the sack I'm sure.

 

If someone could come in and instantly push us into constant UEFA cup qualification then they might get the time (and money) for a real crack at consistent champions league qualification, but that's a huge ask at the moment without spending some serious money.

Not dissimilar to what Robson did when he first arrived. There's more to it than just where you end up in the league (although that's obviously very important). You can also win the fans over by addressing areas that need it most etc. Also, most Villa fans seem happy and optimistic about Martin O'Neill and the future, yet they're only 4 points better off than us. It's about creating an air of optimism through looking like you're making progress.

[Renton 22050]

Can't believe we are still 12th tbh, only 7 points clear of relegation. That Sheffield United game was crucial as it has turned out, if we had lost that then it would be a lot more uncomfortable for Roeder, to say the least.

[Guest alex]

That's a bit different from your initial point though re: achieving consistant Champions League qualification within two seasons. Looking like getting consistent Uefa Cup qualification within 2-3 seasons (via the league rather than the Inter-Toto backdoor route) is probably more like it. I agree about Shepherd not looking at the bigger/long-term picture (generally) but don't see that as justification for keeping someone as shite as Roeder especially if it means getting someone like Allardyce.

 

It's pretty much what Robson got the sack for not doing.

In his first two seasons it wasn't. Robson shouldn't have been sacked the way he was etc. it all should have been handled very differently. That's a different debate and on that has been done to death though.

[Renton 22050]

The thing is assuming Allerdyce (or any one else) is appointed and doesn't get consistent champions league qualifications within 2 seasons they'll just be sacked.

 

I think people are being a little hopeful that a Robson turn around could happen again, or at least happen as quickly, and if it doesn't I'd be loathe to bet on any manager surviving long enough to do so under FFS.

 

It's a bit like Chelski really (although at least their the VAST amounts of cash give a bit more reason for the win now or bust attitude).

I don't agree with that. All Allardyce would have to do would be to have the club moving in the right direction. That's the key imo.

 

That might be the case for a season, maybe two, but FFS isn't the most patient of chairmen (that's one of the main things Robson credits with allowing him to build his Ipswich team, time and money, with the chairman basically showing support but keeping his nose out of the football - I suppose a bit in the mold of Gibson or maybe even Quinn).

 

If, for example, FFS was chairman of Everton Moyes would have been sacked long ago (and there's several other examples I can think of)

 

I mean can you really see him appointing someone on a 10 year contract with a 10 year plan (al la Allerdyce at Bolton)?

 

Shepherd listens to public opinion. If people see that a new manager gets things moving in the right directon on and off the pitch, they will be patient. Shepherd only starts panicking when public opinion turns against the manager or indeed himself, which it rightly did with Souness and which it rightly does now.

 

Just look at Spurs. Their fans have seen for a couple of years now that their club is moving in the right direction. They don't expect instant success because they know they're on the right track. We're not.

 

I'm not so sure, if someone came in and got us 10th next year and 9th the year after there'd be calls for the sack I'm sure.

 

If someone could come in and instantly push us into constant UEFA cup qualification then they might get the time (and money) for a real crack at consistent champions league qualification, but that's a huge ask at the moment without spending some serious money.

Not dissimilar to what Robson did when he first arrived. There's more to it than just where you end up in the league (although that's obviously very important). You can also win the fans over by addressing areas that need it most etc. Also, most Villa fans seem happy and optimistic about Martin O'Neill and the future, yet they're only 4 points better off than us. It's about creating an air of optimism through looking like you're making progress.

 

Crucially you've got to consider their previous CVs too. What is in Roeder's CV to make us feel optimistic?

[manc-mag 1]

The thing is assuming Allerdyce (or any one else) is appointed and doesn't get consistent champions league qualifications within 2 seasons they'll just be sacked.

 

I think people are being a little hopeful that a Robson turn around could happen again, or at least happen as quickly, and if it doesn't I'd be loathe to bet on any manager surviving long enough to do so under FFS.

 

It's a bit like Chelski really (although at least their the VAST amounts of cash give a bit more reason for the win now or bust attitude).

I don't agree with that. All Allardyce would have to do would be to have the club moving in the right direction. That's the key imo.

 

That might be the case for a season, maybe two, but FFS isn't the most patient of chairmen (that's one of the main things Robson credits with allowing him to build his Ipswich team, time and money, with the chairman basically showing support but keeping his nose out of the football - I suppose a bit in the mold of Gibson or maybe even Quinn).

 

If, for example, FFS was chairman of Everton Moyes would have been sacked long ago (and there's several other examples I can think of)

 

I mean can you really see him appointing someone on a 10 year contract with a 10 year plan (al la Allerdyce at Bolton)?

 

Shepherd listens to public opinion. If people see that a new manager gets things moving in the right directon on and off the pitch, they will be patient. Shepherd only starts panicking when public opinion turns against the manager or indeed himself, which it rightly did with Souness and which it rightly does now.

 

Just look at Spurs. Their fans have seen for a couple of years now that their club is moving in the right direction. They don't expect instant success because they know they're on the right track. We're not.

 

I'm not so sure, if someone came in and got us 10th next year and 9th the year after there'd be calls for the sack I'm sure.

 

If someone could come in and instantly push us into constant UEFA cup qualification then they might get the time (and money) for a real crack at consistent champions league qualification, but that's a huge ask at the moment without spending some serious money.

 

The right man should be able to live with that pressure and deliver under that pressure. They'd automatically get two seasons tenure after all.

 

If we don't start thinking that way, we need to pack our ball up and go home tbh.

[Fop 1]

The thing is assuming Allerdyce (or any one else) is appointed and doesn't get consistent champions league qualifications within 2 seasons they'll just be sacked.

 

I think people are being a little hopeful that a Robson turn around could happen again, or at least happen as quickly, and if it doesn't I'd be loathe to bet on any manager surviving long enough to do so under FFS.

 

It's a bit like Chelski really (although at least their the VAST amounts of cash give a bit more reason for the win now or bust attitude).

I don't agree with that. All Allardyce would have to do would be to have the club moving in the right direction. That's the key imo.

 

That might be the case for a season, maybe two, but FFS isn't the most patient of chairmen (that's one of the main things Robson credits with allowing him to build his Ipswich team, time and money, with the chairman basically showing support but keeping his nose out of the football - I suppose a bit in the mold of Gibson or maybe even Quinn).

 

If, for example, FFS was chairman of Everton Moyes would have been sacked long ago (and there's several other examples I can think of)

 

I mean can you really see him appointing someone on a 10 year contract with a 10 year plan (al la Allerdyce at Bolton)?

 

Shepherd listens to public opinion. If people see that a new manager gets things moving in the right directon on and off the pitch, they will be patient. Shepherd only starts panicking when public opinion turns against the manager or indeed himself, which it rightly did with Souness and which it rightly does now.

 

Just look at Spurs. Their fans have seen for a couple of years now that their club is moving in the right direction. They don't expect instant success because they know they're on the right track. We're not.

 

I'm not so sure, if someone came in and got us 10th next year and 9th the year after there'd be calls for the sack I'm sure.

 

If someone could come in and instantly push us into constant UEFA cup qualification then they might get the time (and money) for a real crack at consistent champions league qualification, but that's a huge ask at the moment without spending some serious money.

Not dissimilar to what Robson did when he first arrived. There's more to it than just where you end up in the league (although that's obviously very important). You can also win the fans over by addressing areas that need it most etc. Also, most Villa fans seem happy and optimistic about Martin O'Neill and the future, yet they're only 4 points better off than us. It's about creating an air of optimism through looking like you're making progress.

 

 

Robson was Robson though, completely world class manager (if maybe getting a bit long in the tooth), plus I still think the team he inherited was much better than it seemed, just managed by a madman. But he did simple things like sorting out Shearer's play as well as bringing in players to compliment the squad he had and team he wanted to build (although he brought a few lemons too, but every manager does).

 

The current squad is a complete mess with overpaid over abundance in some areas and shocking weaknesses in others, and often even what quality we have not seeming to be suitable to play together.

 

I think Villa's expectations are much lower than ours (and our Chairmans) though, and O'Neil is still just about in his honeymoon period (if he were here and doing similarly he'd probably be getting sack whispers tbh).

[Guest alex]

The thing is assuming Allerdyce (or any one else) is appointed and doesn't get consistent champions league qualifications within 2 seasons they'll just be sacked.

 

I think people are being a little hopeful that a Robson turn around could happen again, or at least happen as quickly, and if it doesn't I'd be loathe to bet on any manager surviving long enough to do so under FFS.

 

It's a bit like Chelski really (although at least their the VAST amounts of cash give a bit more reason for the win now or bust attitude).

I don't agree with that. All Allardyce would have to do would be to have the club moving in the right direction. That's the key imo.

 

That might be the case for a season, maybe two, but FFS isn't the most patient of chairmen (that's one of the main things Robson credits with allowing him to build his Ipswich team, time and money, with the chairman basically showing support but keeping his nose out of the football - I suppose a bit in the mold of Gibson or maybe even Quinn).

 

If, for example, FFS was chairman of Everton Moyes would have been sacked long ago (and there's several other examples I can think of)

 

I mean can you really see him appointing someone on a 10 year contract with a 10 year plan (al la Allerdyce at Bolton)?

 

Shepherd listens to public opinion. If people see that a new manager gets things moving in the right directon on and off the pitch, they will be patient. Shepherd only starts panicking when public opinion turns against the manager or indeed himself, which it rightly did with Souness and which it rightly does now.

 

Just look at Spurs. Their fans have seen for a couple of years now that their club is moving in the right direction. They don't expect instant success because they know they're on the right track. We're not.

 

I'm not so sure, if someone came in and got us 10th next year and 9th the year after there'd be calls for the sack I'm sure.

 

If someone could come in and instantly push us into constant UEFA cup qualification then they might get the time (and money) for a real crack at consistent champions league qualification, but that's a huge ask at the moment without spending some serious money.

Not dissimilar to what Robson did when he first arrived. There's more to it than just where you end up in the league (although that's obviously very important). You can also win the fans over by addressing areas that need it most etc. Also, most Villa fans seem happy and optimistic about Martin O'Neill and the future, yet they're only 4 points better off than us. It's about creating an air of optimism through looking like you're making progress.

 

Crucially you've got to consider their previous CVs too. What is in Roeder's CV to make us feel optimistic?

That's a massive thing too and it buys you time. Roeder got a honeymoon period because (on top of the excellent job he did at first) 1) He wasn't Souness and 2) He was only caretaker. Once he got the job properly I think people were then sceptical as to how well he would do mainly due to his track record. Similarly with Souness, people assumed he wouldn't do very well from the off because of his track record. Allardyce, MON, etc. would probably get a bit more time for their CV alone.

[Guest alex]

The thing is assuming Allerdyce (or any one else) is appointed and doesn't get consistent champions league qualifications within 2 seasons they'll just be sacked.

 

I think people are being a little hopeful that a Robson turn around could happen again, or at least happen as quickly, and if it doesn't I'd be loathe to bet on any manager surviving long enough to do so under FFS.

 

It's a bit like Chelski really (although at least their the VAST amounts of cash give a bit more reason for the win now or bust attitude).

I don't agree with that. All Allardyce would have to do would be to have the club moving in the right direction. That's the key imo.

 

That might be the case for a season, maybe two, but FFS isn't the most patient of chairmen (that's one of the main things Robson credits with allowing him to build his Ipswich team, time and money, with the chairman basically showing support but keeping his nose out of the football - I suppose a bit in the mold of Gibson or maybe even Quinn).

 

If, for example, FFS was chairman of Everton Moyes would have been sacked long ago (and there's several other examples I can think of)

 

I mean can you really see him appointing someone on a 10 year contract with a 10 year plan (al la Allerdyce at Bolton)?

 

Shepherd listens to public opinion. If people see that a new manager gets things moving in the right directon on and off the pitch, they will be patient. Shepherd only starts panicking when public opinion turns against the manager or indeed himself, which it rightly did with Souness and which it rightly does now.

 

Just look at Spurs. Their fans have seen for a couple of years now that their club is moving in the right direction. They don't expect instant success because they know they're on the right track. We're not.

 

I'm not so sure, if someone came in and got us 10th next year and 9th the year after there'd be calls for the sack I'm sure.

 

If someone could come in and instantly push us into constant UEFA cup qualification then they might get the time (and money) for a real crack at consistent champions league qualification, but that's a huge ask at the moment without spending some serious money.

Not dissimilar to what Robson did when he first arrived. There's more to it than just where you end up in the league (although that's obviously very important). You can also win the fans over by addressing areas that need it most etc. Also, most Villa fans seem happy and optimistic about Martin O'Neill and the future, yet they're only 4 points better off than us. It's about creating an air of optimism through looking like you're making progress.

 

 

Robson was Robson though, completely world class manager (if maybe getting a bit long in the tooth), plus I still think the team he inherited was much better than it seemed, just managed by a madman. But he did simple things like sorting out Shearer's play as well as bringing in players to compliment the squad he had and team he wanted to build (although he brought a few lemons too, but every manager does).

 

The current squad is a complete mess with overpaid over abundance in some areas and shocking weaknesses in others, and often even what quality we have not seeming to be suitable to play together.

 

I think Villa's expectations are much lower than ours (and our Chairmans) though, and O'Neil is still just about in his honeymoon period (if he were here and doing similarly he'd probably be getting sack whispers tbh).

I think we've gotten off the point a bit (I have). All I'm saying is that there's no way you need to be achieving Champions League qualification on a consistent basis as early as you say to stay in the manager's job here. You just need to make progress season on season. That's how I see it at least.

[Fop 1]

The thing is assuming Allerdyce (or any one else) is appointed and doesn't get consistent champions league qualifications within 2 seasons they'll just be sacked.

 

I think people are being a little hopeful that a Robson turn around could happen again, or at least happen as quickly, and if it doesn't I'd be loathe to bet on any manager surviving long enough to do so under FFS.

 

It's a bit like Chelski really (although at least their the VAST amounts of cash give a bit more reason for the win now or bust attitude).

I don't agree with that. All Allardyce would have to do would be to have the club moving in the right direction. That's the key imo.

 

That might be the case for a season, maybe two, but FFS isn't the most patient of chairmen (that's one of the main things Robson credits with allowing him to build his Ipswich team, time and money, with the chairman basically showing support but keeping his nose out of the football - I suppose a bit in the mold of Gibson or maybe even Quinn).

 

If, for example, FFS was chairman of Everton Moyes would have been sacked long ago (and there's several other examples I can think of)

 

I mean can you really see him appointing someone on a 10 year contract with a 10 year plan (al la Allerdyce at Bolton)?

 

Shepherd listens to public opinion. If people see that a new manager gets things moving in the right directon on and off the pitch, they will be patient. Shepherd only starts panicking when public opinion turns against the manager or indeed himself, which it rightly did with Souness and which it rightly does now.

 

Just look at Spurs. Their fans have seen for a couple of years now that their club is moving in the right direction. They don't expect instant success because they know they're on the right track. We're not.

 

I'm not so sure, if someone came in and got us 10th next year and 9th the year after there'd be calls for the sack I'm sure.

 

If someone could come in and instantly push us into constant UEFA cup qualification then they might get the time (and money) for a real crack at consistent champions league qualification, but that's a huge ask at the moment without spending some serious money.

 

The right man should be able to live with that pressure and deliver under that pressure. They'd automatically get two seasons tenure after all.

 

If we don't start thinking that way, we need to pack our ball up and go home tbh.

 

 

We've had plenty of managers that could handle the pressure whilst under performing (and one that probably was only a game or two away from a shotgun rampage, admittedly. ).

 

But if there's not a change (in attitude at least, if not in actual people) at board level it'll all be pointless anyway.

 

I suspect Roeder will probably even do better given time and enough money (although I can't see him ever lifting us past 6th-7th ), but the point is that no one will do much better without being given that, no matter who they are (which of course assumes we can get someone great to come here).

[Guest alex]

I thought your point was that no one will be given that time Fop, without a miracle turn around. Saying Roeder needs time is a red herring for me though. He's simply a shit manager.

[Fop 1]

 

That's a massive thing too and it buys you time. Roeder got a honeymoon period because (on top of the excellent job he did at first) 1) He wasn't Souness and 2) He was only caretaker. Once he got the job properly I think people were then sceptical as to how well he would do mainly due to his track record. Similarly with Souness, people assumed he wouldn't do very well from the off because of his track record. Allardyce, MON, etc. would probably get a bit more time for their CV alone.

 

He didn't really get much of a one though, whispers of sacking were very early in the season from a fans expectations point of view.

Due to the days of Keegan and Robson we (and I mean fans and Chairman) broadly think we should be up there with the current top 4 (and maybe by rights we should be, if things had been a bit different), but getting there from our current position is probably going to be harder than getting Bolton from a lower league to two seasons qualification for Europe (have the done that come to think of it yet?), or surviving relegation on a budget and wining a cup or managing a club in a two horse race.

 

 

 

 

I think we've gotten off the point a bit (I have). All I'm saying is that there's no way you need to be achieving Champions League qualification on a consistent basis as early as you say to stay in the manager's job here. You just need to make progress season on season. That's how I see it at least.

 

I still think that's what any manager would need to be safe from FFS within 2-3 seasons, much less (barring a Cup win or something) and he'd be looking for "better", even if there was slow progress.

[Fop 1]

I thought your point was that no one will be given that time Fop, without a miracle turn around. Saying Roeder needs time is a red herring for me though. He's simply a shit manager.

 

He's not the best, but given time I think he'd do better, but he won't be given that time (and possibly shouldn't anyway - but that's not really the point, if managers were given time we'd never would have had Roeder as our manager in the first place, nor Souness. Although equally if Gullit hadn't quit who knows where we'd be now ).

 

 

Personally I'd support the appointment of someone like Allerdyce (although I suspect many would begin to chafe quite quickly at what'd had have us playing), if he was to be given the time and money to have a real attempt at it (even though I don't know that he could take us much past 5th or 6th), but I very much doubt he'd be given it.

[Gemmill 46195]

Personally I'd support the appointment of someone like Allerdyce (although I suspect many would begin to chafe quite quickly at what'd had have us playing)

 

People wouldn't give a shit how we played if we were winning games and dominating teams in the way Bolton do. There's a big difference between organised, well-drilled winning football which can be unattractive which is what Bolton play, and what we currently turn out which is just plain bad losing football with bad performances from most of the 11 on the pitch. If we were winning games and playing like a team, people wouldn't give a shit about the "pack the box with big men" type tactics.

[nufc4ever 0]

A Villa fan at work (and all of the other fans he knows, he reckons) says they're happy to give O'Neill this season and are very optimistic about next. They can see improvements already and can't wait to get going again. They see exciting times ahead, regardless of this season's finish.

 

They might well only be in a marginally better position than us right now, but do we feel the same way about Roeder?

Edited May 1, 2007 by nufc4ever

[nufc4ever 0]

Personally I'd support the appointment of someone like Allerdyce (although I suspect many would begin to chafe quite quickly at what'd had have us playing)

 

People wouldn't give a shit how we played if we were winning games and dominating teams in the way Bolton do. There's a big difference between organised, well-drilled winning football which can be unattractive which is what Bolton play, and what we currently turn out which is just plain bad losing football with bad performances from most of the 11 on the pitch. If we were winning games and playing like a team, people wouldn't give a shit about the "pack the box with big men" type tactics.

 

Last night we couldn't even play long-ball when we obviously tried, so being able to would be a start.

[Renton 22050]

A Villa fan at work (and all of the other fans he knows, he reckons) says they're happy to give O'Neill this season and are very optimistic about next. They can see improvements already and can't wait to get going again. They see exciting times ahead, regardless of this season's finish.

 

They might well only be in a marginally better position than us right now, but do we feel the same way about Roeder?

 

Villa were almost relegated last year, so they really have improved significantly. I really wish we had a manager like MON, just to give me some hope apart from anything else.

[Gemmill 46195]

Aye it doesn't look like it was the hip injury that was preventing Shola from timing his headers does it. I swear somebody has taught him to jump as the passer's foot makes contact with the ball.

[Ketsbaia 0]

A Villa fan at work (and all of the other fans he knows, he reckons) says they're happy to give O'Neill this season and are very optimistic about next. They can see improvements already and can't wait to get going again. They see exciting times ahead, regardless of this season's finish.

 

They might well only be in a marginally better position than us right now, but do we feel the same way about Roeder?

 

We were in a similar position with Robson when he first came in. We were midtable for a season or too but willing to let it slide because we could see positive changes being made on and off the pitch.

[@yourservice 67]

wasnt Allardyce interested in Bramble a few months ago?

 

if so he can fuck off,cause he'll keep him here if Roeder gets the boot and he gets installed!