Calls grow for return of terraces

[Scottish Mag 3]

The vast majority of English football supporters want a return to standing in grounds, according to a survey obtained by BBC Sport.

 

The poll, which is due to published later in March, found 92% want clubs to bring back safe standing areas.

 

Stadia in the top two divisions have had to be all-seater since the Taylor Report into the Hillsborough disaster.

 

Former Sports Minister Kate Hoey said: "A rational reappraisal of this issue is long overdue. It's time to talk."

 

Pressure for another look at the issue of terracing has been growing, prompting campaigners to demand a fresh debate.

 

The poll was conducted by Football Fans Census (FFC), an independent forum set up to gather and communicate opinion on football-related matters.

 

FFC co-founder Tim Gentles said: "This is the fourth time we have polled fans on this issue and support for standing in safe, designated areas has consistently been over 90%."

 

No new evidence has been presented to suggest there is a more effective way of achieving safety as well as public order than all-seater stadia

 

Sports Minister Richard Caborn

The sample for this poll was 2,100 fans from all clubs and divisions, 45% of whom were season-ticket holders.

 

Gentles added that a recent "state of the game" survey found the right to stand was the second most important issue for fans after ticket prices.

 

The survey's findings came as no surprise to Hoey, who tried to re-open the case for terraces during her tenure as sports minister in 2000.

 

But despite Tony Blair and other senior Labour politicians saying they were in favour of the idea when in opposition, they changed their position when in power.

 

As a result, Hoey was quickly silenced by Culture Secretary Chris Smith and replaced soon after by current incumbent Richard Caborn. She was also criticised by relatives of Liverpool fans who lost their lives at Hillsborough.

 

Ninety-six supporters died on 15 April 1989 when the Leppings Lane end at Sheffield Wednesday's ground became over-crowded at the start of an FA Cup semi-final against Nottingham Forest.

 

 

Standing is still allowed and popular at Championship side Cardiff City

The official inquiry, conducted by Lord Taylor, blamed poor policing and inadequate facilities for the tragedy but the main recommendation was for the introduction of all-seater stadia and the removal of perimeter fencing.

 

On Wednesday, however, an undeterred Hoey is co-hosting a seminar on the issue at the House of Commons. And with German stadia in the Bundesliga providing a working example of how modern technology and effective stewarding can provide a problem-free mix of seating and standing, she appears to be on safer ground this time.

 

Organised by project management group Drivers Jonas, the seminar is a result of research the company commissioned to find out how satisfied fans were with the new stadia that it helped to deliver (grounds which include Middlesbrough's and Sunderland's).

 

The company's football expert Geoff Aucock said: "We asked fans about their experience at the grounds - sight lines, toilets and so on - but the most interesting thing we found was the interest in bringing back standing areas.

 

"It was an unprompted response as we purposefully did not ask that question. So we thought it was time to re-open the debate. Our part in this is just to make sure the decision-makers have the latest information on the developments in this field."

 

Hoey said it was "only sensible" to bring people together to discuss the issue and expressed her disappointment that the Department for Culture, Media and Sport (DCMS) and the Football Licensing Authority (FLA), the body the DCMS set up to implement the Taylor Report's recommendations, had declined invitations to attend the seminar.

 

Nobody wants to downplay what happened at Hillsborough or return to the hooligan problems of the 70s and 80s, but fans are different now and so is the technology

 

Phill Gatenby

Football Supporters' Federation

"They are frightened to put their head above the parapet but it is a pity that they don't feel they can even come to debate the subject," she said.

 

"They have their fixed position, which was fixed 10 years ago, so I am not surprised they're not coming."

 

Indeed, the DCMS and FLA have been consistent in their objection to any review of their all-seater policy. And safe-standing advocates have accused them of being reluctant to engage in debate.

 

BBC Sport asked the DCMS to comment but was told to look at Hansard, the parliamentary record, for the minister's most recent comments on the subject.

 

In reply to a question from Coventry South MP Jim Cunningham on 8 February, Caborn said: "No new evidence has been presented to suggest that there is a single more effective way of achieving safety as well as public order than all-seater stadia.

 

"The government remains fully committed to the current policy. The football authorities have also made it clear they have no wish to re-introduce any standing areas at grounds in the top two divisions."

 

FLA chief executive John de Quidt, however, did agree to be interviewed and gave a forthright defence of the current legislation and denied that the example of standing areas in German stadia was applicable to England.

 

De Quidt said the example he looked at, Hamburg's state-of-the-art Volksparkstadion, where the terrace steps rotate 180 degrees to be replaced by seats when necessary, was too expensive and required too much land to be replicated in England.

 

 

Standing is key to German football culture, especially with the young

He also defended the FLA's research into injury statistics at grounds. These indicate that injuries are decreasing and suggest that all-seater grounds are safer than grounds with standing sections.

 

Pro-standing campaigners, however, challenge the validity of these statistics, saying they include injuries suffered anywhere on the club's premises, regardless of their relevance to standing or even if the conditions existed prior to the game.

 

They also point to the inconsistency of standing being allowed at lower-division football and other sports and, most glaringly, music concerts at all-seater football stadia.

 

Amanda Matthews of pro-standing group Stand Up Sit Down said: "Those statistics are not worth the paper they are printed on. The authorities trot them out because they know their argument is weak. There is no evidence whatsoever that all-seater grounds are safer than ones with standing."

 

But de Quidt said: "The government has made its position clear, that is why we will not be attending (Wednesday's seminar).

 

"It is a forum designed to generate more heat than light. There is a difference between entering into a debate and participating in a circus."

 

 

No debate on safe standing can ignore the Hillsborough factor

But with concerns over ticket prices, an ageing crowd demographic, falling attendances, inconsistencies in the legislation, a perceived lack of atmosphere at many grounds and the undiminished support for standing from fans, pressure is growing on the authorities to re-examine the all-seater requirement.

 

Wednesday's seminar is timely as an early day motion that calls for "the government to re-examine the case for introducing, small, limited sections of safe standing areas" has received cross-party approval.

 

And fans' group the Football Supporters' Federation (FSF) is set to present the DCMS and FLA with a dossier of new evidence that it hopes will force them to reconsider.

 

The FSF's Phill Gatenby is one of the authors of that dossier and has recently returned from a fact-finding trip to Germany, where he saw three Bundesliga matches, all with large, reasonably-priced, trouble-free and very passionate standing sections.

 

"Nobody wants to downplay the seriousness of what happened at Hillsborough or return to the hooligan problems of the 70s and 80s," said Gatenby.

 

"But football fans are different now and so is the technology. Even Lord Taylor said standing was not the reason for Hillsborough.

 

"The DCMS and FLA say it's about safety one minute, public order the next and then claim it's too expensive when those arguments fall down.

 

"The German example is new evidence. Surely it is time for everybody to sit down and talk about this."

[Guest alex]

Surely it is time for everybody to sit down and talk about this.

Wahey

[Isegrim 10017]

De Quidt said the example he looked at, Hamburg's state-of-the-art Volksparkstadion, where the terrace steps rotate 180 degrees to be replaced by seats when necessary, was too expensive and required too much land to be replicated in England.

 

Wow, he looked at ONE (newly redeveloped) stadium? He should probably had a look some of the other stadiums in the top flight as well...

[Tom_NUFC 0]

Something to remember is that Hillsborough wasn't caused by unsafe terracing, it was caused by incompetant policing. If the Police had done their job properly that day, then seeing the amounts of people trying to get in to the ground as kick off approached, they'd have had the kick off put back by 15 minutes and got people in safely, rather than opening a few gates and hearding everyone through without opening the side sections of the terrace to let people through and relieve the crowding.

[themags 0]

they need to do another inspection of our grounds to see how safe some of these new seated stadiums are.

 

the boro away end if your near the front and over 5 foot tall you cant sit down if you want to as your knee's would be in the back of whoever is in front of you

 

and charlton appear to have attached seats to the old wooden terrence

 

but hey you can charge someone at least £20 to sit at a football match so why change it

[Guest stevieintoon]

Something to remember is that Hillsborough wasn't caused by unsafe terracing, it was caused by incompetant policing. If the Police had done their job properly that day, then seeing the amounts of people trying to get in to the ground as kick off approached, they'd have had the kick off put back by 15 minutes and got people in safely, rather than opening a few gates and hearding everyone through without opening the side sections of the terrace to let people through and relieve the crowding.

Tom, I share many of your views and I regard you as one of the more knowledgable posters on the toon message boards. However I think any terrace with fencing is unsafe, if there were no fences at Hillsborough it's likely that nobody dies. When I think about it, up to that Luton game when the fences came doon, we were treat like animals, I was a small boy, but me and my dad were treat like animals, as everybody else was.

[Renton 22435]

Out of interest, who out of us would opt for terracing for regular home matches nowadays, assuming prices were the same or similar? I'd love the option for away matches (where you stand anyway) but not sure I'd want to stand up watching some of the stuff we're subjected to at home on a weekly basis. Not unless it did miraculously improve the atmosphere that is.

[Guest stevieintoon]

Out of interest, who out of us would opt for terracing for regular home matches nowadays, assuming prices were the same or similar? I'd love the option for away matches (where you stand anyway) but not sure I'd want to stand up watching some of the stuff we're subjected to at home on a weekly basis. Not unless it did miraculously improve the atmosphere that is.

One of the biggest myths of every club is that "the atmosphere was great every week when there was terracing". Sometimes it was completely shite like now. I guarantee though, if we built a terrace for 10,000 people in the Leazes of the Gallowgate, the atmosphere would be 100% better at almost every game. People would feel less inhibited and could more easily stand with friends, as often people with season tickets are split up all over the ground.

 

I'd be on the terrace without a doubt, BVB and Schalke can do it so why can't we?

Edited March 14, 2007 by stevieintoon

[Guest alex]

Out of interest, who out of us would opt for terracing for regular home matches nowadays, assuming prices were the same or similar? I'd love the option for away matches (where you stand anyway) but not sure I'd want to stand up watching some of the stuff we're subjected to at home on a weekly basis. Not unless it did miraculously improve the atmosphere that is.

One of the biggest myths of every club is that "the atmosphere was great every week when there was terracing". Sometimes it was completely shite like now. I guarantee though, if we built a terrace for 10,000 people in the Leazes of the Gallowgate, the atmosphere would be 100% better at almost every game. People would feel less inhibited and could more easily sit with friends, as often people with season tickets are split up all over the ground.

 

I'd be on the terrace without a doubt, BVB and Schalke can do it so why can't we?

I'd like to see in return too. Tbh, it would be nice to have the option although I must admit I like being able to leave the pub about 10 minutes before kick-off. Agree with Rents it would be good for away games too.

[Isegrim 10017]

I'd be on the terrace without a doubt, BVB and Schalke can do it so why can't we?

Every team in Germany does it. They only have to install convertible seats in case they qualify for a European competition.

 

The "funny" thing is only that we still have fences...

[snakehips 0]

I see on teletext that the new owners of Liverpool have suspended all activities regarding the building of their new stadium on Stanley Park - something to do with having a look at possible increase of capacity.

 

I bet it's in response to this business of a new call for terracing, as they (l'pool) don't want to fork out a fortune for all seating and then have new legislation allowing terracing.

[Chaser 1321]

Cant see why terracing couldnt be brought back, without the fencing, just back to the railings along the terrace again.

 

Apart from Hillsborough and Heysel, where neither were directly the result of terracing, what other disasters have there been involving terraces?

[Sima 0]

Cant see why terracing couldnt be brought back, without the fencing, just back to the railings along the terrace again.

 

Apart from Hillsborough and Heysel, where neither were directly the result of terracing, what other disasters have there been involving terraces?

 

Ibrox but that was ages ago and it was at the back end of the stadium

[snakehips 0]

Cant see why terracing couldnt be brought back, without the fencing, just back to the railings along the terrace again.

 

Apart from Hillsborough and Heysel, where neither were directly the result of terracing, what other disasters have there been involving terraces?

 

Ibrox but that was ages ago and it was at the back end of the stadium

 

Didn't a stand collapse somewhere in the mediterranean a few years ago??? Might have been a temporary stand, though (the fogs of time)

[snakehips 0]

I've said this before (Christ, I sound like LM ) but converting modern stadiums a la SJP to terracing (even just at one end) would be an extremely difficult thing to do.

 

If you imagine the stand without the seats you will notice the 'rise' between each level is around 50cm. This height is far too much for terracing so some sort of conversion would have to be done - far from straight forward imo as the prefab concrete is made to fit the steelwork beneath it both in size and weight.

[Scottish Mag 3]

I've said this before (Christ, I sound like LM ) but converting modern stadiums a la SJP to terracing (even just at one end) would be an extremely difficult thing to do.

 

If you imagine the stand without the seats you will notice the 'rise' between each level is around 50cm. This height is far too much for terracing so some sort of conversion would have to be done - far from straight forward imo as the prefab concrete is made to fit the steelwork beneath it both in size and weight.

 

But its the 5th best concrete in the league tbh..

[Meenzer 15871]

I've said this before (Christ, I sound like LM ) but converting modern stadiums a la SJP to terracing (even just at one end) would be an extremely difficult thing to do.

 

If you imagine the stand without the seats you will notice the 'rise' between each level is around 50cm. This height is far too much for terracing so some sort of conversion would have to be done - far from straight forward imo as the prefab concrete is made to fit the steelwork beneath it both in size and weight.

 

But its the 5th best concrete in the league tbh..

 

The rise between each level was 37 miles under the old board.

[Noelie 103]

I think seating provides you with a better view of the match(unless the people in front of you jump out of their seats quicker than you can) as opposed to the terraces which favour people taller than you are(ever stood behind giants).

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 4087]

I would like a return to terraces Think if it was done it would be limited and maybe in the part at the front of the east and west stand. As to policing just make it an all season ticket area.

[Guest alex]

I see on teletext that the new owners of Liverpool have suspended all activities regarding the building of their new stadium on Stanley Park - something to do with having a look at possible increase of capacity.

 

I bet it's in response to this business of a new call for terracing, as they (l'pool) don't want to fork out a fortune for all seating and then have new legislation allowing terracing.

What about putting the paddock back in the Milburn Stand though? The current stand was converted from that (before the expansion) so it would be relatively easy to do (at a guess).

[snakehips 0]

I see on teletext that the new owners of Liverpool have suspended all activities regarding the building of their new stadium on Stanley Park - something to do with having a look at possible increase of capacity.

 

I bet it's in response to this business of a new call for terracing, as they (l'pool) don't want to fork out a fortune for all seating and then have new legislation allowing terracing.

What about putting the paddock back in the Milburn Stand though? The current stand was converted from that (before the expansion) so it would be relatively easy to do (at a guess).

 

Maybe that's possible, Alex. However, do the nobs want the oiks 'doing their stuff' directly below them??

[Guest alex]

I see on teletext that the new owners of Liverpool have suspended all activities regarding the building of their new stadium on Stanley Park - something to do with having a look at possible increase of capacity.

 

I bet it's in response to this business of a new call for terracing, as they (l'pool) don't want to fork out a fortune for all seating and then have new legislation allowing terracing.

What about putting the paddock back in the Milburn Stand though? The current stand was converted from that (before the expansion) so it would be relatively easy to do (at a guess).

 

Maybe that's possible, Alex. However, do the nobs want the oiks 'doing their stuff' directly below them??

I used to have to put up with it before they made it all seater

[snakehips 0]

I see on teletext that the new owners of Liverpool have suspended all activities regarding the building of their new stadium on Stanley Park - something to do with having a look at possible increase of capacity.

 

I bet it's in response to this business of a new call for terracing, as they (l'pool) don't want to fork out a fortune for all seating and then have new legislation allowing terracing.

What about putting the paddock back in the Milburn Stand though? The current stand was converted from that (before the expansion) so it would be relatively easy to do (at a guess).

 

Maybe that's possible, Alex. However, do the nobs want the oiks 'doing their stuff' directly below them??

I used to have to put up with it before they made it all seater

 

Aye, I remember you telling me you used to go to the game in top hat, silk scarf and tails. "Oh, do come on Noocarsel"

[Guest alex]

I see on teletext that the new owners of Liverpool have suspended all activities regarding the building of their new stadium on Stanley Park - something to do with having a look at possible increase of capacity.

 

I bet it's in response to this business of a new call for terracing, as they (l'pool) don't want to fork out a fortune for all seating and then have new legislation allowing terracing.

What about putting the paddock back in the Milburn Stand though? The current stand was converted from that (before the expansion) so it would be relatively easy to do (at a guess).

 

Maybe that's possible, Alex. However, do the nobs want the oiks 'doing their stuff' directly below them??

I used to have to put up with it before they made it all seater

 

Aye, I remember you telling me you used to go to the game in top hat, silk scarf and tails. "Oh, do come on Noocarsel"

Only if it was a nice day, otherwise I'd get the butler to go and surreptitiously video the game.

[snakehips 0]

I see on teletext that the new owners of Liverpool have suspended all activities regarding the building of their new stadium on Stanley Park - something to do with having a look at possible increase of capacity.

 

I bet it's in response to this business of a new call for terracing, as they (l'pool) don't want to fork out a fortune for all seating and then have new legislation allowing terracing.

What about putting the paddock back in the Milburn Stand though? The current stand was converted from that (before the expansion) so it would be relatively easy to do (at a guess).

 

Maybe that's possible, Alex. However, do the nobs want the oiks 'doing their stuff' directly below them??

I used to have to put up with it before they made it all seater

 

Aye, I remember you telling me you used to go to the game in top hat, silk scarf and tails. "Oh, do come on Noocarsel"

Only if it was a nice day, otherwise I'd get the butler to go and surreptitiously video the game.

 

Skyboy! Or, what the butler saw!