What are you reading?

[NJS 4384]

I don't want to belittle that issue, but the freedom of choice to send your kid to a faith based school or not seems to me the opposite of a...

 

There are a few issues for Faith schools for me:

 

Firstly I'd say it imposes the parent's views on the kid - I know that happens generally but I think one thing Dawkins has fundamentally right is that describing kids as "whatever" really grates on me. We impose ages of consent/legality for things like voting and sex but seem okay to just define kids by their parents gangs.

 

Secondly I find them divisive - no matter how much they deny it, having gone to a catholic school I know theres an attitude of "we are right, the rest of you are damned" which goes beyond simple school pride/loyalty and the attitudes can pervade throughout life.

 

Thirdly I find the dishonesty of parents pretending to find God to get into schools to be nuaseating - faith schools get better results beacuse they select (as studies have shown) not because of innately better work ethics as argued.

 

Finally I think despite a set curriculum its easy for faith schools to teach bollocks - including in science - and as someone who cares about knowledge I find that deeply wrong.

 

Overall I think France and even the US in principle have it right - I think state schools at least should be secular and religion should be pushed into the private sphere as much as possible - where I do believe honestly in the right for anyone to believe any bollocks they like.

[Happy Face 29]

praying 5 times a day is the second biggest waste of human time after ironing.

 

I had a great day ironing yesterday. It's one of my favourite hobbies. Get the steam generator on, a few hours of podcasts on the ipod and I'm off.

 

Renton. Sorry but that fear is about as low on my fear list as an Al Qaeda attack or Swine Flu.

 

I can totally respect anyone reading it out of interest (as you say), but in no way is it a pressing issue on the national or international stage imo.

[Renton 21623]

I just can't fathom their reasoning for ID in science classes? Surely their logic is that it's an explanation for the progression of life? Which is either fairly similar to Evolution or Magic Man Done it.

 

so either some deity nudged life in the right direction and then let it be to evolve by itself (and is therefore evolution which has scientific support) or God was involved in every genetic leap (and it is therefore not a science, but a faith driven progression and should be in RE).

 

I don't mind any and all faiths being taught in school, just not in Science classes. It'd be like teaching Drama in Maths or Shop in PE... it's a legitimate subject, but has no place in that particular classroom.

 

ID is a refutation of evolution isn't it, an entirely negative pseudoscience based on the principle or irreducible complexity. It's utterly retarded.

 

I object to any form of religion being taught in school, apart from from a cultural view point. I'd ban all faith schools immediately, the benefits would soon be reaped 10 years down the line.

[NJS 4384]

I can totally respect anyone reading it out of interest (as you say), but in no way is it a pressing issue on the national or international stage imo.

 

You honestly don't see religion as a problem internationally?

 

I presume you don't operate from a "doesn't affect me so I don't care" pov so I would find not seeing it as a problem to be strange tbh.

[Renton 21623]

praying 5 times a day is the second biggest waste of human time after ironing.

 

I had a great day ironing yesterday. It's one of my favourite hobbies. Get the steam generator on, a few hours of podcasts on the ipod and I'm off.

 

Renton. Sorry but that fear is about as low on my fear list as an Al Qaeda attack or Swine Flu.

 

I can totally respect anyone reading it out of interest (as you say), but in no way is it a pressing issue on the national or international stage imo.

 

I find that an incredible statement.

 

Out of interest, what issues are more pressing on the international stage?

[trophyshy 7083]

I can totally respect anyone reading it out of interest (as you say), but in no way is it a pressing issue on the national or international stage imo.

 

You honestly don't see religion as a problem internationally?

 

I presume you don't operate from a "doesn't affect me so I don't care" pov so I would find not seeing it as a problem to be strange tbh.

 

Enjoying his ironing too much to give a fuck by the sounds of it. Steam trippin.

[Happy Face 29]

I don't want to belittle that issue, but the freedom of choice to send your kid to a faith based school or not seems to me the opposite of a...

 

There are a few issues for Faith schools for me:

 

Firstly I'd say it imposes the parent's views on the kid - I know that happens generally but I think one thing Dawkins has fundamentally right is that describing kids as "whatever" really grates on me. We impose ages of consent/legality for things like voting and sex but seem okay to just define kids by their parents gangs.

 

Secondly I find them divisive - no matter how much they deny it, having gone to a catholic school I know theres an attitude of "we are right, the rest of you are damned" which goes beyond simple school pride/loyalty and the attitudes can pervade throughout life.

 

Thirdly I find the dishonesty of parents pretending to find God to get into schools to be nuaseating - faith schools get better results beacuse they select (as studies have shown) not because of innately better work ethics as argued.

 

Finally I think despite a set curriculum its easy for faith schools to teach bollocks - including in science - and as someone who cares about knowledge I find that deeply wrong.

 

Overall I think France and even the US in principle have it right - I think state schools at least should be secular and religion should be pushed into the private sphere as much as possible - where I do believe honestly in the right for anyone to believe any bollocks they like.

 

Apart from you not wanting to impose a parents view but preferring to impose the states view, I'm in complete agreement.

 

Oh, and the "we are right, the rest of you are xxxxx" is as true for an atheist as it is catholic, muslim or jew. As has been shown by the 'ban faith schools' sentiment. I find it strange that an atheist, against the enforced indoctrination into a belief system would advocate such a restriction of peoples freedom. Will we also enshrine in law that parents can't tell their kids about santa or the tooth fairy?

[trophyshy 7083]

Well eventually they are revealed as fantasy, parents just stop one fantasy short.

[Renton 21623]

I don't want to belittle that issue, but the freedom of choice to send your kid to a faith based school or not seems to me the opposite of a...

 

There are a few issues for Faith schools for me:

 

Firstly I'd say it imposes the parent's views on the kid - I know that happens generally but I think one thing Dawkins has fundamentally right is that describing kids as "whatever" really grates on me. We impose ages of consent/legality for things like voting and sex but seem okay to just define kids by their parents gangs.

 

Secondly I find them divisive - no matter how much they deny it, having gone to a catholic school I know theres an attitude of "we are right, the rest of you are damned" which goes beyond simple school pride/loyalty and the attitudes can pervade throughout life.

 

Thirdly I find the dishonesty of parents pretending to find God to get into schools to be nuaseating - faith schools get better results beacuse they select (as studies have shown) not because of innately better work ethics as argued.

 

Finally I think despite a set curriculum its easy for faith schools to teach bollocks - including in science - and as someone who cares about knowledge I find that deeply wrong.

 

Overall I think France and even the US in principle have it right - I think state schools at least should be secular and religion should be pushed into the private sphere as much as possible - where I do believe honestly in the right for anyone to believe any bollocks they like.

 

Apart from you not wanting to impose a parents view but preferring to impose the states view, I'm in complete agreement.

 

Oh, and the "we are right, the rest of you are xxxxx" is as true for an atheist as it is catholic, muslim or jew. As has been shown by the 'ban faith schools' sentiment. I find it strange that an atheist, against the enforced indoctrination into a belief system would advocate such a restriction of peoples freedom. Will we also enshrine in law that parents can't tell their kids about santa or the tooth fairy?

 

Comparing the indoctrination of religion with enlightened thought? Nice.

[Happy Face 29]

I can totally respect anyone reading it out of interest (as you say), but in no way is it a pressing issue on the national or international stage imo.

 

You honestly don't see religion as a problem internationally?

 

I presume you don't operate from a "doesn't affect me so I don't care" pov so I would find not seeing it as a problem to be strange tbh.

 

 

praying 5 times a day is the second biggest waste of human time after ironing.

 

I had a great day ironing yesterday. It's one of my favourite hobbies. Get the steam generator on, a few hours of podcasts on the ipod and I'm off.

 

Renton. Sorry but that fear is about as low on my fear list as an Al Qaeda attack or Swine Flu.

 

I can totally respect anyone reading it out of interest (as you say), but in no way is it a pressing issue on the national or international stage imo.

 

I find that an incredible statement.

 

Out of interest, what issues are more pressing on the international stage?

 

As I suggested before, it's not the religion that's at issue in any international conflict in this day and age, it's only the sideshow. Have George Bush and Barak Obama waged two wars in the name of christianity?

 

Has the global economic crisis been brought about by anything but greed?

 

The closest to an international issue over religion is Israel/Palestine. Do Israeli's and Palestinians still not get along because of faith or because of land? The palestinians would call a ceasfire tomorrow if Israel would stop taking their land. A good proportion of Israelis view their part in that war as immoral and actively speak out in defiance of that governments invasions.

Edited October 12, 2009 by Happy Face

[Happy Face 29]

I don't want to belittle that issue, but the freedom of choice to send your kid to a faith based school or not seems to me the opposite of a...

 

There are a few issues for Faith schools for me:

 

Firstly I'd say it imposes the parent's views on the kid - I know that happens generally but I think one thing Dawkins has fundamentally right is that describing kids as "whatever" really grates on me. We impose ages of consent/legality for things like voting and sex but seem okay to just define kids by their parents gangs.

 

Secondly I find them divisive - no matter how much they deny it, having gone to a catholic school I know theres an attitude of "we are right, the rest of you are damned" which goes beyond simple school pride/loyalty and the attitudes can pervade throughout life.

 

Thirdly I find the dishonesty of parents pretending to find God to get into schools to be nuaseating - faith schools get better results beacuse they select (as studies have shown) not because of innately better work ethics as argued.

 

Finally I think despite a set curriculum its easy for faith schools to teach bollocks - including in science - and as someone who cares about knowledge I find that deeply wrong.

 

Overall I think France and even the US in principle have it right - I think state schools at least should be secular and religion should be pushed into the private sphere as much as possible - where I do believe honestly in the right for anyone to believe any bollocks they like.

 

Apart from you not wanting to impose a parents view but preferring to impose the states view, I'm in complete agreement.

 

Oh, and the "we are right, the rest of you are xxxxx" is as true for an atheist as it is catholic, muslim or jew. As has been shown by the 'ban faith schools' sentiment. I find it strange that an atheist, against the enforced indoctrination into a belief system would advocate such a restriction of peoples freedom. Will we also enshrine in law that parents can't tell their kids about santa or the tooth fairy?

 

Comparing the indoctrination of religion with enlightened thought? Nice.

 

Isn't that the whole debate?

 

Science good...Religion bad.

[Renton 21623]

What about Afghanistan, Al Queda, the Taliban, and 9/11? Nothing to do with religion? You don't think Bush had any religious motivation at all? The American public aren't backing their foreign policy for religious reasons?

[Renton 21623]

I don't want to belittle that issue, but the freedom of choice to send your kid to a faith based school or not seems to me the opposite of a...

 

There are a few issues for Faith schools for me:

 

Firstly I'd say it imposes the parent's views on the kid - I know that happens generally but I think one thing Dawkins has fundamentally right is that describing kids as "whatever" really grates on me. We impose ages of consent/legality for things like voting and sex but seem okay to just define kids by their parents gangs.

 

Secondly I find them divisive - no matter how much they deny it, having gone to a catholic school I know theres an attitude of "we are right, the rest of you are damned" which goes beyond simple school pride/loyalty and the attitudes can pervade throughout life.

 

Thirdly I find the dishonesty of parents pretending to find God to get into schools to be nuaseating - faith schools get better results beacuse they select (as studies have shown) not because of innately better work ethics as argued.

 

Finally I think despite a set curriculum its easy for faith schools to teach bollocks - including in science - and as someone who cares about knowledge I find that deeply wrong.

 

Overall I think France and even the US in principle have it right - I think state schools at least should be secular and religion should be pushed into the private sphere as much as possible - where I do believe honestly in the right for anyone to believe any bollocks they like.

 

Apart from you not wanting to impose a parents view but preferring to impose the states view, I'm in complete agreement.

 

Oh, and the "we are right, the rest of you are xxxxx" is as true for an atheist as it is catholic, muslim or jew. As has been shown by the 'ban faith schools' sentiment. I find it strange that an atheist, against the enforced indoctrination into a belief system would advocate such a restriction of peoples freedom. Will we also enshrine in law that parents can't tell their kids about santa or the tooth fairy?

 

Comparing the indoctrination of religion with enlightened thought? Nice.

 

Isn't that the whole debate?

 

Science good...Religion bad.

 

No.

 

School should be about teaching rational thought and life enrichment through the arts imo. Not brainwashing kids through a pack of demonstrably false lies. Not to mention scaring them shitless through teaching Hell and Brimstone, whilst at the same time creating conflict with people of other faiths.

 

What do you think science is in any case? It seems my understanding of it may be different than yours.

[Happy Face 29]

What about Afghanistan, Al Queda, the Taliban, and 9/11? Nothing to do with religion? You don't think Bush had any religious motivation at all?

 

Nothing to do with religion at all. Both sides frame it in religion because of your next point....

 

The American public aren't backing their foreign policy for religious reasons?

 

Religion is a far less complex issue than the decades of socio-economic opression the west has enforced in the middle east. Far better to frame it as "they hate us for our freedom" and "we will liberate them from their theocracy".

 

I'm not saying that sort of delusion in itself is not an issue, but rather than convince someone there is no god...to then go on and discuss what the war is REALLY about....it's a far better approach to discuss what the war is REALLY about and don't have god come into it at all, they can keep their belief if they want to and still come out with a more realistic view on what's going on around the world.

Edited October 12, 2009 by Happy Face

[Happy Face 29]

I don't want to belittle that issue, but the freedom of choice to send your kid to a faith based school or not seems to me the opposite of a...

 

There are a few issues for Faith schools for me:

 

Firstly I'd say it imposes the parent's views on the kid - I know that happens generally but I think one thing Dawkins has fundamentally right is that describing kids as "whatever" really grates on me. We impose ages of consent/legality for things like voting and sex but seem okay to just define kids by their parents gangs.

 

Secondly I find them divisive - no matter how much they deny it, having gone to a catholic school I know theres an attitude of "we are right, the rest of you are damned" which goes beyond simple school pride/loyalty and the attitudes can pervade throughout life.

 

Thirdly I find the dishonesty of parents pretending to find God to get into schools to be nuaseating - faith schools get better results beacuse they select (as studies have shown) not because of innately better work ethics as argued.

 

Finally I think despite a set curriculum its easy for faith schools to teach bollocks - including in science - and as someone who cares about knowledge I find that deeply wrong.

 

Overall I think France and even the US in principle have it right - I think state schools at least should be secular and religion should be pushed into the private sphere as much as possible - where I do believe honestly in the right for anyone to believe any bollocks they like.

 

Apart from you not wanting to impose a parents view but preferring to impose the states view, I'm in complete agreement.

 

Oh, and the "we are right, the rest of you are xxxxx" is as true for an atheist as it is catholic, muslim or jew. As has been shown by the 'ban faith schools' sentiment. I find it strange that an atheist, against the enforced indoctrination into a belief system would advocate such a restriction of peoples freedom. Will we also enshrine in law that parents can't tell their kids about santa or the tooth fairy?

 

Comparing the indoctrination of religion with enlightened thought? Nice.

 

Isn't that the whole debate?

 

Science good...Religion bad.

 

No.

 

School should be about teaching rational thought and life enrichment through the arts imo. Not brainwashing kids through a pack of demonstrably false lies. Not to mention scaring them shitless through teaching Hell and Brimstone, whilst at the same time creating conflict with people of other faiths.

 

What do you think science is in any case? It seems my understanding of it may be different than yours.

 

I've not said religion should be taught in the science class btw. I think our understanding of it is exactly the same.

 

I don't even have any strong opinion on teaching religious education. My problem is when you say all faith schools should be banned immediately. Perhaps my understanding of a faith school is misinformed, but I don't think it's necessarily one that sacrifices science in favour of religion.

[Renton 21623]

What about Afghanistan, Al Queda, the Taliban, and 9/11? Nothing to do with religion? You don't think Bush had any religious motivation at all?

 

Nothing to do with religion at all. Both sides frame it in religion to because of your next point....

 

The American public aren't backing their foreign policy for religious reasons?

 

Religion is a far less complex issue than the decades of socio-economic opression the west has enforced in the middle east. Far better to frame it as "they hate us for our freedom" and "we will liberate them from the their theocracy".

 

I'm not saying that sort of delusion in itself is not an issue, but rather than convince someone there is no god...to then go on and discuss what the war is REALLY about....it's a far better approach to discuss what the war is REALLY about and don't have god come into it at all, they can keep their belief if they want to and still come out with a more realistic view on what's going on around the world.

 

Leaving the West aside for the moment, what motivated Mohammed Atta and his peers to kill himself and thousands of others? The event that triggered both Afghanistan and Iraq? Was it political ideology, or the supreme belief in his God and his reward thereafter?

 

What makes the Taliban tick? Is their religious extremism the cause of their oppression or is it something else?

 

The importance of religion is absolutely critical to the instability in the Middle East, and therefore the world, imo.

[Renton 21623]

I don't want to belittle that issue, but the freedom of choice to send your kid to a faith based school or not seems to me the opposite of a...

 

There are a few issues for Faith schools for me:

 

Firstly I'd say it imposes the parent's views on the kid - I know that happens generally but I think one thing Dawkins has fundamentally right is that describing kids as "whatever" really grates on me. We impose ages of consent/legality for things like voting and sex but seem okay to just define kids by their parents gangs.

 

Secondly I find them divisive - no matter how much they deny it, having gone to a catholic school I know theres an attitude of "we are right, the rest of you are damned" which goes beyond simple school pride/loyalty and the attitudes can pervade throughout life.

 

Thirdly I find the dishonesty of parents pretending to find God to get into schools to be nuaseating - faith schools get better results beacuse they select (as studies have shown) not because of innately better work ethics as argued.

 

Finally I think despite a set curriculum its easy for faith schools to teach bollocks - including in science - and as someone who cares about knowledge I find that deeply wrong.

 

Overall I think France and even the US in principle have it right - I think state schools at least should be secular and religion should be pushed into the private sphere as much as possible - where I do believe honestly in the right for anyone to believe any bollocks they like.

 

Apart from you not wanting to impose a parents view but preferring to impose the states view, I'm in complete agreement.

 

Oh, and the "we are right, the rest of you are xxxxx" is as true for an atheist as it is catholic, muslim or jew. As has been shown by the 'ban faith schools' sentiment. I find it strange that an atheist, against the enforced indoctrination into a belief system would advocate such a restriction of peoples freedom. Will we also enshrine in law that parents can't tell their kids about santa or the tooth fairy?

 

Comparing the indoctrination of religion with enlightened thought? Nice.

 

Isn't that the whole debate?

 

Science good...Religion bad.

 

No.

 

School should be about teaching rational thought and life enrichment through the arts imo. Not brainwashing kids through a pack of demonstrably false lies. Not to mention scaring them shitless through teaching Hell and Brimstone, whilst at the same time creating conflict with people of other faiths.

 

What do you think science is in any case? It seems my understanding of it may be different than yours.

 

I've not said religion should be taught in the science class btw. I think our understanding of it is exactly the same.

 

I don't even have any strong opinion on teaching religious education. My problem is when you say all faith schools should be banned immediately. Perhaps my understanding of a faith school is misinformed, but I don't think it's necessarily one that sacrifices science in favour of religion.

 

Like I suggested earlier, perhaps our views are different because you haven't personally experienced religious indoctrination like I have. I just cannot see what place religion should have in school in the 21st century and cannot see it as anything but divisive. Norn Iron being a classic example, on our very shores. I basically echo NJS's sentiments (a fellow victim ).

 

For me btw science is simply the pursuit of truth. Huge difference between that and religion, it's insulting even to compare them.

[Happy Face 29]

What about Afghanistan, Al Queda, the Taliban, and 9/11? Nothing to do with religion? You don't think Bush had any religious motivation at all?

 

Nothing to do with religion at all. Both sides frame it in religion to because of your next point....

 

The American public aren't backing their foreign policy for religious reasons?

 

Religion is a far less complex issue than the decades of socio-economic opression the west has enforced in the middle east. Far better to frame it as "they hate us for our freedom" and "we will liberate them from the their theocracy".

 

I'm not saying that sort of delusion in itself is not an issue, but rather than convince someone there is no god...to then go on and discuss what the war is REALLY about....it's a far better approach to discuss what the war is REALLY about and don't have god come into it at all, they can keep their belief if they want to and still come out with a more realistic view on what's going on around the world.

 

Leaving the West aside for the moment, what motivated Mohammed Atta and his peers to kill himself and thousands of others? The event that triggered both Afghanistan and Iraq? Was it political ideology, or the supreme belief in his God and his reward thereafter?

 

What makes the Taliban tick? Is their religious extremism the cause of their oppression or is it something else?

 

The importance of religion is absolutely critical to the instability in the Middle East, and therefore the world, imo.

 

You can't "leave the west aside for the moment". This is exactly what I'm talking about whereby the preference of government is to have it framed in a religious context so you can dismiss the terrorists as crazed religious nut jobs. You can rest easy that you're on the good guys side because there's no reason for them to attack us outside of extremism. No need to consider what we've stolen from them, or how we've used them for our own ends then abandoned them.

 

Undoubtedly, they are crazy religious, and it's the most crazy religious ones that are radicalised by the leadership with promises of life everlasting, but that promise is predicated on a desire to fight the very real political axe they have to grind.

 

If their devout belief is the root cause of it though...then why did they choose to attack the US and only the US? Why not Japan? Korea? Switzerland?

Edited October 12, 2009 by Happy Face

[NJS 4384]

Undoubtedly, they are crazy religious, and it's the most crazy religious ones that are radicalised by the leadership with promises of life everlasting, but that promise is predicated on a desire to fight the very real political axe they have to grind.

 

If their devout belief is the root cause of it though...then why did they choose to attack the US and only the US? Why not Japan? Korea? Switzerland?

 

The September 11th bombers weren't Palestinians or from any other country affected by any perceived notion of American foreign policy so what does that leave? It leaves people who genuinely believed that their cause was holy.

 

I would also say that despite background political strings, both Blair and Bush were "influenced" by their faiths - that also applies to many, many Americans.

 

 

Religions are another layer to gang warfare on a large scale but the problem is that for far too many people they are a base, irrational layer that adds a nasty spice to political grievances. I don't think for one minute that its removal would end conflict instantly but it would help take the edge of things if people didn't classify themselves in this way.

 

Its not just the middle east btw - conflicts in Europe in the last 30 or 40 years show that we are not immune and dismissing these as just "political" is naive imo.

[The Fish 10857]

The September 11th bombers weren't Palestinians or from any other country affected by any perceived notion of American foreign policy so what does that leave? It leaves people who genuinely believed that their cause was holy.

 

But they were just the trigger men. Those pulling their strings are very much embittered by injustice, be it real or invented.

 

I don't believe you could persuade an atheist to kill himself in the name of X, but there are some very legitimate political grievances governing the strikes against western targets.

[trophyshy 7083]

Religion used as a vector for political moves. Whodathunkit?

[NJS 4384]

The September 11th bombers weren't Palestinians or from any other country affected by any perceived notion of American foreign policy so what does that leave? It leaves people who genuinely believed that their cause was holy.

 

But they were just the trigger men. Those pulling their strings are very much embittered by injustice, be it real or invented.

 

I don't believe you could persuade an atheist to kill himself in the name of X, but there are some very legitimate political grievances governing the strikes against western targets.

 

 

Do you honestly think that Atta or Bin Laden really cared/care about the Palestinians?

 

You can argue about the July 7th bombers from a perceived grievance pov (but only then because of religious brotherhood) but honestly think for many Muslims (and as I said extreme US Christians) it is a religious conflict.

 

I would also say that suicide bombing has only become "fashionable" in conflicts where that extra spice I referred to is present. You could argue for example that the ANC had a real grievance but as far as I know they didn't use suicide bombing.

[The Fish 10857]

I would say that it is too easy to dismiss them as religious zealots; there's more at work there.

[NJS 4384]

I would say that it is too easy to dismiss them as religious zealots; there's more at work there.

 

 

Not wholly my point - I'm not an "all wars are religious" zealot as some are - they are usually about land, resources, history, politics etc I'm just saying that religion can be a very dodgy factor in them.

 

Other thing can sometimes be addressed but if you're left with we're "x" and they're "y" you haven't got much to go on.

 

A lot of the "old" reasons for wars are becoming redundant as humans generally mix and migrate fairly easily and the world to some extent is becoming less local so I'd just like to see any remaining factors diminish as well.

[Happy Face 29]

The September 11th bombers weren't Palestinians or from any other country affected by any perceived notion of American foreign policy so what does that leave? It leaves people who genuinely believed that their cause was holy.

 

But they were just the trigger men. Those pulling their strings are very much embittered by injustice, be it real or invented.

 

I don't believe you could persuade an atheist to kill himself in the name of X, but there are some very legitimate political grievances governing the strikes against western targets.

 

 

Do you honestly think that Atta or Bin Laden really cared/care about the Palestinians?

 

You can argue about the July 7th bombers from a perceived grievance pov (but only then because of religious brotherhood) but honestly think for many Muslims (and as I said extreme US Christians) it is a religious conflict.

 

I would also say that suicide bombing has only become "fashionable" in conflicts where that extra spice I referred to is present. You could argue for example that the ANC had a real grievance but as far as I know they didn't use suicide bombing.

 

 

The trigger for Bin Laden was more that he was disgusted by Saudi Arabia turning down his offer of protection when Iraq invaded Kuwait in preference for non-muslim troops (US/UK).

 

Mohamed Atta became radicalised following the Gulf war too, but the Oslo accord has also been credited, one friend said "He was most imbued [sic] actually about Israeli politics in the region and about U.S. protection of these Israeli politics in the region. And he was to a degree personally suffering from that."

Edited October 12, 2009 by Happy Face