Who do you want to win the league?

[Guest stevieintoon]

Munich was like a business card, the win over Benfica was an advert.

 

That's nearly as good as "Failure is like a disease to Kevin Keegan....one with no cure."

It was more than a business card, it was more like a "here ye gan shag wor lass", Benfica was like "shag wor lass and her sister." Munich was the most pivotal moment in English football history.

 

Sorry that's bull Stevie, you're very knowledgeable about the history of football so I'm a bit taken aback by that comment. TV, the European Cup and 66 was the pivotal moments in English football history, that and the offside law which NUFC played a huge huge part in.

Munich heralded the start of people supporting teams from outside of their local area. Clubs like Bury, Rochdale, York etc... could all get 18-30,000 before the war and in the 50's because the local club was the be all and end all.

 

My grandmother came from Accrington, she's dead now, she was a huge Accrington Stanley fan, but she like the majority of people in her area all changed their allegiance when Munich happened. Speak to anyone of that generation, it was the main news every day for a month, a country was in mourning, it was the biggest thing since the war. If you notice after the boom of the late 40's and 50's, attendance wise crowds started to decrease significantly across the board, apart from clubs that were winning things, it was all a result of a chain of events started with the Munich Air Disaster.

 

Man Utd became a club who were now the nations favourite, the first lot of Busby Babes were decimated, the sympathy that the club received was unparalelled. A generation of young fans and football supporters in general, were consumed by the romantic search of their holy grail which was rebuilding the club and eventually laying the ghosts of Munich to rest by capturing the European Cup.

 

Munich was the catalyst for clubs gaining fan bases far beyond their local area, speak to any old twat they'll tell you the same, shortly after Liverpool's style under Shankly started to develop their fan base along with the advent of televised football and the World Cup win, but Munich was the catalyst, and is the key reason why as long as there is football as we know it Manchester United will be the biggest club, they always have been since 1958.

[Guest alex]

Some good points well made there. Quite a contrast to the fortunes of Torino following the Superga (sp?) aircrash. Torino have never recovered and I think they were the most successful team in Italy at the time (and historically up until that point).

[manc-mag 1]

Munich was like a business card, the win over Benfica was an advert.

 

That's nearly as good as "Failure is like a disease to Kevin Keegan....one with no cure."

It was more than a business card, it was more like a "here ye gan shag wor lass", Benfica was like "shag wor lass and her sister." Munich was the most pivotal moment in English football history.

 

Sorry that's bull Stevie, you're very knowledgeable about the history of football so I'm a bit taken aback by that comment. TV, the European Cup and 66 was the pivotal moments in English football history, that and the offside law which NUFC played a huge huge part in.

Munich heralded the start of people supporting teams from outside of their local area. Clubs like Bury, Rochdale, York etc... could all get 18-30,000 before the war and in the 50's because the local club was the be all and end all.

 

My grandmother came from Accrington, she's dead now, she was a huge Accrington Stanley fan, but she like the majority of people in her area all changed their allegiance when Munich happened. Speak to anyone of that generation, it was the main news every day for a month, a country was in mourning, it was the biggest thing since the war. If you notice after the boom of the late 40's and 50's, attendance wise crowds started to decrease significantly across the board, apart from clubs that were winning things, it was all a result of a chain of events started with the Munich Air Disaster.

 

Man Utd became a club who were now the nations favourite, the first lot of Busby Babes were decimated, the sympathy that the club received was unparalelled. A generation of young fans and football supporters in general, were consumed by the romantic search of their holy grail which was rebuilding the club and eventually laying the ghosts of Munich to rest by capturing the European Cup.

 

Munich was the catalyst for clubs gaining fan bases far beyond their local area, speak to any old twat they'll tell you the same, shortly after Liverpool's style under Shankly started to develop their fan base along with the advent of televised football and the World Cup win, but Munich was the catalyst, and is the key reason why as long as there is football as we know it Manchester United will be the biggest club, they always have been since 1958.

 

Agreed completely.

 

The publicity which has always followed (I know the Munich generation of fans would all be 50's plus or dead now, but they've had kids who have had kids etc) has left Man U in a unique position fan base wise domestically. And ythis knocks on- I stand by my earlier point re the 'Asian' money- I know huge money only came in at the start of the 90's, but Man U would have reaped this even if they hadn't been winning everything because domestically the media would have pandered to the armchair reds anyway as they had done for the previous 30 years. Consequently when the foreign interests came in to snap up the Premiership coverage they'd still have been force fed Man U and consequently they'd still all have pumped their money into Merchandise United.

 

This is preciseley my point re the media favour/goodwill. You cannot underestimate the influence of that sort of publicity.

Edited January 24, 2007 by manc-mag

[manc-mag 1]

Munich was like a business card, the win over Benfica was an advert.

 

That's nearly as good as "Failure is like a disease to Kevin Keegan....one with no cure."

It was more than a business card, it was more like a "here ye gan shag wor lass", Benfica was like "shag wor lass and her sister." Munich was the most pivotal moment in English football history.

 

Sorry that's bull Stevie, you're very knowledgeable about the history of football so I'm a bit taken aback by that comment. TV, the European Cup and 66 was the pivotal moments in English football history, that and the offside law which NUFC played a huge huge part in.

Munich heralded the start of people supporting teams from outside of their local area. Clubs like Bury, Rochdale, York etc... could all get 18-30,000 before the war and in the 50's because the local club was the be all and end all.

 

My grandmother came from Accrington, she's dead now, she was a huge Accrington Stanley fan, but she like the majority of people in her area all changed their allegiance when Munich happened. Speak to anyone of that generation, it was the main news every day for a month, a country was in mourning, it was the biggest thing since the war. If you notice after the boom of the late 40's and 50's, attendance wise crowds started to decrease significantly across the board, apart from clubs that were winning things, it was all a result of a chain of events started with the Munich Air Disaster.

 

Man Utd became a club who were now the nations favourite, the first lot of Busby Babes were decimated, the sympathy that the club received was unparalelled. A generation of young fans and football supporters in general, were consumed by the romantic search of their holy grail which was rebuilding the club and eventually laying the ghosts of Munich to rest by capturing the European Cup.

 

Munich was the catalyst for clubs gaining fan bases far beyond their local area, speak to any old twat they'll tell you the same, shortly after Liverpool's style under Shankly started to develop their fan base along with the advent of televised football and the World Cup win, but Munich was the catalyst, and is the key reason why as long as there is football as we know it Manchester United will be the biggest club, they always have been since 1958.

 

Ps, HTT.......I didnt mean any offence before (genuinely), but the above argument epitomises the reason why I didnt address your points. Without a knowledge or interest of anything pre SKY then you fail to undertsand the historical context of everything.

[Guest alex]

Doubt that, he's read all about it.

[manc-mag 1]

Doubt that, he's read all about it.

 

Fair enough like and I'm not saying he's without any appreciation of the funding of football pre and post Sky, but for me he hasn't got the faintest clue why the media are obsessed with Man U. His view seems to be (and i quote) 'they're newsworthy because they're successful'. Well yes they are, but they were newsworthy when they werent successful too and will continue to be newsworthy when they arent successful again. And why was this?

 

.....thats the difference and it is down to Munich.

 

Find me another factor that's unique to them that could account for it. The one Euro cup win in '68? (as FCUM would like you to believe). Nah. Sorry. Doesnt explain it. Only makes sense if you accept that by that stage they were lauded because of Munich.

 

...and have continued to be ever since.

[Guest alex]

It was a tongue-in-cheek comment tbh

[manc-mag 1]

It was a tongue-in-cheek comment tbh

 

Aye, FCUM's bum cheeks.

[Guest alex]

It was a tongue-in-cheek comment tbh

 

Aye, FCUM's bum cheeks.

By agreeing with Stevie then having a sly dig at HTT?

How are you today anyway?

[manc-mag 1]

It was a tongue-in-cheek comment tbh

 

Aye, FCUM's bum cheeks.

By agreeing with Stevie then having a sly dig at HTT?

How are you today anyway?

 

 

seething you twat!

[Guest alex]

It was a tongue-in-cheek comment tbh

 

Aye, FCUM's bum cheeks.

By agreeing with Stevie then having a sly dig at HTT?

How are you today anyway?

 

 

seething you twat!

Thought so.

[Howaythetoon 0]

Munich was like a business card, the win over Benfica was an advert.

 

That's nearly as good as "Failure is like a disease to Kevin Keegan....one with no cure."

It was more than a business card, it was more like a "here ye gan shag wor lass", Benfica was like "shag wor lass and her sister." Munich was the most pivotal moment in English football history.

 

Sorry that's bull Stevie, you're very knowledgeable about the history of football so I'm a bit taken aback by that comment. TV, the European Cup and 66 was the pivotal moments in English football history, that and the offside law which NUFC played a huge huge part in.

Munich heralded the start of people supporting teams from outside of their local area. Clubs like Bury, Rochdale, York etc... could all get 18-30,000 before the war and in the 50's because the local club was the be all and end all.

 

My grandmother came from Accrington, she's dead now, she was a huge Accrington Stanley fan, but she like the majority of people in her area all changed their allegiance when Munich happened. Speak to anyone of that generation, it was the main news every day for a month, a country was in mourning, it was the biggest thing since the war. If you notice after the boom of the late 40's and 50's, attendance wise crowds started to decrease significantly across the board, apart from clubs that were winning things, it was all a result of a chain of events started with the Munich Air Disaster.

 

Man Utd became a club who were now the nations favourite, the first lot of Busby Babes were decimated, the sympathy that the club received was unparalelled. A generation of young fans and football supporters in general, were consumed by the romantic search of their holy grail which was rebuilding the club and eventually laying the ghosts of Munich to rest by capturing the European Cup.

 

Munich was the catalyst for clubs gaining fan bases far beyond their local area, speak to any old twat they'll tell you the same, shortly after Liverpool's style under Shankly started to develop their fan base along with the advent of televised football and the World Cup win, but Munich was the catalyst, and is the key reason why as long as there is football as we know it Manchester United will be the biggest club, they always have been since 1958.

 

I'm not doubting that Stevie, but how was Munich the most pivotal moment in English football history? Was gaining extra fans that significant to the game in the grand scheme of things? Football's income at that time was gate reciepts and any sponsorship they could find, they weren't selling shirts or stadium tours, there were no TV subcsription channels so Man Utd or any team were in no position to prosper from new fans. Munich certainly didn't give Man Utd any advantage over any other team as claimed in this thread, more column inches perhaps but no extra advantages. Aye people from small towns with no real football team probably chose to support Man Utd on the back of Munich but this isn't unique and has always been the case right back to the game's inception - people in general who are semi-detached from football due a weak football presence in their community will pick out the most popular team or go with a team with good players, always have done, always will do. That's why Gateshead are shit I seriously doubt, on the back of Munich, bury fans decided to intead support Man Utd over Bury for example. Now today, that is evident but that's down to TV. Some of my family were from Swindon and Carlisle, they didn't swap those teams for Man Utd. Some did, big deal.

 

My main bone of contention with your theory anyway isn't whether Man Utd gained new fans on the back of Munich, I agree that they did and would have, I disagree 100% with your views that Munich was the pivotal moment in the history of our game however, or Manc Mag's views that Munich somehow gave Man Utd an advantage over everyone else or gave birth to the Man Utd we know today. It may have played a part in both but minimal at best. TV, Europe and the '66 World Cup changed the face of English football and indeed shaped the game today for what it is. Today the vast majority of income comes from TV, Europe is the be all and end all, while the nation still clings onto the notion that we are somehow a footballing superpower based on nothing more than the success of Bobby's boys.

 

Ironically an Aussie owns Sky, and the World Cup and European competition is a foreign concept which the vast majority of English football said no to at the time, oh and Munich happened on foreign soil too. England, the land that gave the world football? Don't make me laugh.

 

Anyhoo...

 

The 66' World Cup had a massive effect on the game and converted more non fans into fans than Munich ever did, all Munich did was test loyalty, the World Cup win converted an entire nation into football fans, regardless of location or class, or age or sex, and with it ensuring an endless supply of new footballers for the game's professional clubs. The large viewing figures also forced TV which had always had a "take it or leave it" stronghold over clubs, to rethink their policies. TV couldn't now live without football. That had a knock-on effect for the entire game and lead to bidding for TV rights which today provide clubs with huge sums of money. 20m next season apparently.

 

The European football age created megastars of world appeal, not just national. For the first time ever we could compare our top footballers to the continent's and this just made even bigger stars. Best won European footballer of the year, he was to all intents and purposes thee best player on the planet. People wanted to be him, wanted to be a footballer, he changed the face of commercial relationships with clubs and players, he paved the way for the Beckhams, the big wages, the adulation, hype and blanket media coverage, not Munich. Are you trying to tell me he would have been as big a star as he was had there been no Europe and TV? Man Utd on the back of their European Cup triumph were suddenly the best team in the world, not based on opinion or here say, but fact and everyone who watched the game worldwide new it. That created a far bigger interest in Man Utd than Munich, Munich while real was unreal if you like, Man Utd the kings of Europe were real and tangible to people because they'd seen it with their own two eyes. There are stats in history books that indicate sales of footballs after that match, daft little things, Man Utd had to hire new staff to deal with things, they weren't just a British club anymore, they were a worldwide club.

 

TV, the impact TV has had on the game is the greatest and single most signficant thing to ever happen to the game, not Munich. Not just here in England but the world over. The facts can't be ignored.

 

I'd say Hillsborough and Heysel had a bigger impact on English football than Munich, never mind TV, Europe and '66.

[manc-mag 1]

Munich was like a business card, the win over Benfica was an advert.

 

That's nearly as good as "Failure is like a disease to Kevin Keegan....one with no cure."

It was more than a business card, it was more like a "here ye gan shag wor lass", Benfica was like "shag wor lass and her sister." Munich was the most pivotal moment in English football history.

 

Sorry that's bull Stevie, you're very knowledgeable about the history of football so I'm a bit taken aback by that comment. TV, the European Cup and 66 was the pivotal moments in English football history, that and the offside law which NUFC played a huge huge part in.

Munich heralded the start of people supporting teams from outside of their local area. Clubs like Bury, Rochdale, York etc... could all get 18-30,000 before the war and in the 50's because the local club was the be all and end all.

 

My grandmother came from Accrington, she's dead now, she was a huge Accrington Stanley fan, but she like the majority of people in her area all changed their allegiance when Munich happened. Speak to anyone of that generation, it was the main news every day for a month, a country was in mourning, it was the biggest thing since the war. If you notice after the boom of the late 40's and 50's, attendance wise crowds started to decrease significantly across the board, apart from clubs that were winning things, it was all a result of a chain of events started with the Munich Air Disaster.

 

Man Utd became a club who were now the nations favourite, the first lot of Busby Babes were decimated, the sympathy that the club received was unparalelled. A generation of young fans and football supporters in general, were consumed by the romantic search of their holy grail which was rebuilding the club and eventually laying the ghosts of Munich to rest by capturing the European Cup.

 

Munich was the catalyst for clubs gaining fan bases far beyond their local area, speak to any old twat they'll tell you the same, shortly after Liverpool's style under Shankly started to develop their fan base along with the advent of televised football and the World Cup win, but Munich was the catalyst, and is the key reason why as long as there is football as we know it Manchester United will be the biggest club, they always have been since 1958.

 

I'm not doubting that Stevie, but how was Munich the most pivotal moment in English football history? Was gaining extra fans that significant to the game in the grand scheme of things? Football's income at that time was gate reciepts and any sponsorship they could find, they weren't selling shirts or stadium tours, there were no TV subcsription channels so Man Utd or any team were in no position to prosper from new fans. Munich certainly didn't give Man Utd any advantage over any other team as claimed in this thread, more column inches perhaps but no extra advantages. Aye people from small towns with no real football team probably chose to support Man Utd on the back of Munich but this isn't unique and has always been the case right back to the game's inception - people in general who are semi-detached from football due a weak football presence in their community will pick out the most popular team or go with a team with good players, always have done, always will do. That's why Gateshead are shit I seriously doubt, on the back of Munich, bury fans decided to intead support Man Utd over Bury for example. Now today, that is evident but that's down to TV. Some of my family were from Swindon and Carlisle, they didn't swap those teams for Man Utd. Some did, big deal.

 

My main bone of contention with your theory anyway isn't whether Man Utd gained new fans on the back of Munich, I agree that they did and would have, I disagree 100% with your views that Munich was the pivotal moment in the history of our game however, or Manc Mag's views that Munich somehow gave Man Utd an advantage over everyone else or gave birth to the Man Utd we know today. It may have played a part in both but minimal at best. TV, Europe and the '66 World Cup changed the face of English football and indeed shaped the game today for what it is. Today the vast majority of income comes from TV, Europe is the be all and end all, while the nation still clings onto the notion that we are somehow a footballing superpower based on nothing more than the success of Bobby's boys.

 

Ironically an Aussie owns Sky, and the World Cup and European competition is a foreign concept which the vast majority of English football said no to at the time, oh and Munich happened on foreign soil too. England, the land that gave the world football? Don't make me laugh.

 

Anyhoo...

 

The 66' World Cup had a massive effect on the game and converted more non fans into fans than Munich ever did, all Munich did was test loyalty, the World Cup win converted an entire nation into football fans, regardless of location or class, or age or sex, and with it ensuring an endless supply of new footballers for the game's professional clubs. The large viewing figures also forced TV which had always had a "take it or leave it" stronghold over clubs, to rethink their policies. TV couldn't now live without football. That had a knock-on effect for the entire game and lead to bidding for TV rights which today provide clubs with huge sums of money. 20m next season apparently.

 

The European football age created megastars of world appeal, not just national. For the first time ever we could compare our top footballers to the continent's and this just made even bigger stars. Best won European footballer of the year, he was to all intents and purposes thee best player on the planet. People wanted to be him, wanted to be a footballer, he changed the face of commercial relationships with clubs and players, he paved the way for the Beckhams, the big wages, the adulation, hype and blanket media coverage, not Munich. Are you trying to tell me he would have been as big a star as he was had there been no Europe and TV? Man Utd on the back of their European Cup triumph were suddenly the best team in the world, not based on opinion or here say, but fact and everyone who watched the game worldwide new it. That created a far bigger interest in Man Utd than Munich, Munich while real was unreal if you like, Man Utd the kings of Europe were real and tangible to people because they'd seen it with their own two eyes. There are stats in history books that indicate sales of footballs after that match, daft little things, Man Utd had to hire new staff to deal with things, they weren't just a British club anymore, they were a worldwide club.

 

TV, the impact TV has had on the game is the greatest and single most signficant thing to ever happen to the game, not Munich. Not just here in England but the world over. The facts can't be ignored.

 

I'd say Hillsborough and Heysel had a bigger impact on English football than Munich, never mind TV, Europe and '66.

 

Erm.......who?

 

By the way I think football was quite a popular passtime in England prior to the summer of 66.

[Howaythetoon 0]

Munich was like a business card, the win over Benfica was an advert.

 

That's nearly as good as "Failure is like a disease to Kevin Keegan....one with no cure."

It was more than a business card, it was more like a "here ye gan shag wor lass", Benfica was like "shag wor lass and her sister." Munich was the most pivotal moment in English football history.

 

Sorry that's bull Stevie, you're very knowledgeable about the history of football so I'm a bit taken aback by that comment. TV, the European Cup and 66 was the pivotal moments in English football history, that and the offside law which NUFC played a huge huge part in.

Munich heralded the start of people supporting teams from outside of their local area. Clubs like Bury, Rochdale, York etc... could all get 18-30,000 before the war and in the 50's because the local club was the be all and end all.

 

My grandmother came from Accrington, she's dead now, she was a huge Accrington Stanley fan, but she like the majority of people in her area all changed their allegiance when Munich happened. Speak to anyone of that generation, it was the main news every day for a month, a country was in mourning, it was the biggest thing since the war. If you notice after the boom of the late 40's and 50's, attendance wise crowds started to decrease significantly across the board, apart from clubs that were winning things, it was all a result of a chain of events started with the Munich Air Disaster.

 

Man Utd became a club who were now the nations favourite, the first lot of Busby Babes were decimated, the sympathy that the club received was unparalelled. A generation of young fans and football supporters in general, were consumed by the romantic search of their holy grail which was rebuilding the club and eventually laying the ghosts of Munich to rest by capturing the European Cup.

 

Munich was the catalyst for clubs gaining fan bases far beyond their local area, speak to any old twat they'll tell you the same, shortly after Liverpool's style under Shankly started to develop their fan base along with the advent of televised football and the World Cup win, but Munich was the catalyst, and is the key reason why as long as there is football as we know it Manchester United will be the biggest club, they always have been since 1958.

 

Ps, HTT.......I didnt mean any offence before (genuinely), but the above argument epitomises the reason why I didnt address your points. Without a knowledge or interest of anything pre SKY then you fail to undertsand the historical context of everything.

 

No offence taken Manc Mag, but you didn't have to be there to understand the history of the game - most of it is self evident and the game today is a very good indicator of the significant moments in the game's history. Like rings on a tree. And to say because I'm of the Sky generation that I have no knowledge of the game prior to all that is very weak. I don't have any experience, true and fair enough, but that doesn't make your own understanding that much better than my own, did you interview every fan post Munich to see whether they had swapped teams, did you read every single paper post Munich to weigh up the bias? Did you get to see the books of every club to ascertain just how much, if at all, Man Utd benefitted financially from Munich?

 

At least my understanding isn't clouded by any resentment issues or indeed bias, can you safely say yours isn't?

 

I know I will have a hard time convincing the die hards that Munich, in all reality didn't play this significant role in the game or the Man Utd of today, but really, the facts speak for themselves.

 

Did Man Utd benefit finanically from Munich? No

Did Man Utd get extra points for a win because of Munich? No

Did Man Utd's gates increase significantly because Munich? No

Did Man Utd's trophy cabinet grow because of Munich? No

Did the media show bias toward's Man Utd? because of Munich Yes

Did they gain extra fans because of Munich? Yes

 

That seems to be your whole argument, that the media showed bias and they gained some extra fans. I say - and? How on earth did that turn them into the mega club they are today? How on earth did that become the pivotal moment in the history of the game?

 

After 68, Man Utd were like NUFC post 55, big club failing to reach the heights of former glory years. Only until Fergie showed up in the late 80s did that change, significantly as Liverpool's dominance faded and Sky TV came to the fore. Coincidence?

Edited January 24, 2007 by Howaythetoon

[Howaythetoon 0]

Munich was like a business card, the win over Benfica was an advert.

 

That's nearly as good as "Failure is like a disease to Kevin Keegan....one with no cure."

It was more than a business card, it was more like a "here ye gan shag wor lass", Benfica was like "shag wor lass and her sister." Munich was the most pivotal moment in English football history.

 

Sorry that's bull Stevie, you're very knowledgeable about the history of football so I'm a bit taken aback by that comment. TV, the European Cup and 66 was the pivotal moments in English football history, that and the offside law which NUFC played a huge huge part in.

Munich heralded the start of people supporting teams from outside of their local area. Clubs like Bury, Rochdale, York etc... could all get 18-30,000 before the war and in the 50's because the local club was the be all and end all.

 

My grandmother came from Accrington, she's dead now, she was a huge Accrington Stanley fan, but she like the majority of people in her area all changed their allegiance when Munich happened. Speak to anyone of that generation, it was the main news every day for a month, a country was in mourning, it was the biggest thing since the war. If you notice after the boom of the late 40's and 50's, attendance wise crowds started to decrease significantly across the board, apart from clubs that were winning things, it was all a result of a chain of events started with the Munich Air Disaster.

 

Man Utd became a club who were now the nations favourite, the first lot of Busby Babes were decimated, the sympathy that the club received was unparalelled. A generation of young fans and football supporters in general, were consumed by the romantic search of their holy grail which was rebuilding the club and eventually laying the ghosts of Munich to rest by capturing the European Cup.

 

Munich was the catalyst for clubs gaining fan bases far beyond their local area, speak to any old twat they'll tell you the same, shortly after Liverpool's style under Shankly started to develop their fan base along with the advent of televised football and the World Cup win, but Munich was the catalyst, and is the key reason why as long as there is football as we know it Manchester United will be the biggest club, they always have been since 1958.

 

I'm not doubting that Stevie, but how was Munich the most pivotal moment in English football history? Was gaining extra fans that significant to the game in the grand scheme of things? Football's income at that time was gate reciepts and any sponsorship they could find, they weren't selling shirts or stadium tours, there were no TV subcsription channels so Man Utd or any team were in no position to prosper from new fans. Munich certainly didn't give Man Utd any advantage over any other team as claimed in this thread, more column inches perhaps but no extra advantages. Aye people from small towns with no real football team probably chose to support Man Utd on the back of Munich but this isn't unique and has always been the case right back to the game's inception - people in general who are semi-detached from football due a weak football presence in their community will pick out the most popular team or go with a team with good players, always have done, always will do. That's why Gateshead are shit I seriously doubt, on the back of Munich, bury fans decided to intead support Man Utd over Bury for example. Now today, that is evident but that's down to TV. Some of my family were from Swindon and Carlisle, they didn't swap those teams for Man Utd. Some did, big deal.

 

My main bone of contention with your theory anyway isn't whether Man Utd gained new fans on the back of Munich, I agree that they did and would have, I disagree 100% with your views that Munich was the pivotal moment in the history of our game however, or Manc Mag's views that Munich somehow gave Man Utd an advantage over everyone else or gave birth to the Man Utd we know today. It may have played a part in both but minimal at best. TV, Europe and the '66 World Cup changed the face of English football and indeed shaped the game today for what it is. Today the vast majority of income comes from TV, Europe is the be all and end all, while the nation still clings onto the notion that we are somehow a footballing superpower based on nothing more than the success of Bobby's boys.

 

Ironically an Aussie owns Sky, and the World Cup and European competition is a foreign concept which the vast majority of English football said no to at the time, oh and Munich happened on foreign soil too. England, the land that gave the world football? Don't make me laugh.

 

Anyhoo...

 

The 66' World Cup had a massive effect on the game and converted more non fans into fans than Munich ever did, all Munich did was test loyalty, the World Cup win converted an entire nation into football fans, regardless of location or class, or age or sex, and with it ensuring an endless supply of new footballers for the game's professional clubs. The large viewing figures also forced TV which had always had a "take it or leave it" stronghold over clubs, to rethink their policies. TV couldn't now live without football. That had a knock-on effect for the entire game and lead to bidding for TV rights which today provide clubs with huge sums of money. 20m next season apparently.

 

The European football age created megastars of world appeal, not just national. For the first time ever we could compare our top footballers to the continent's and this just made even bigger stars. Best won European footballer of the year, he was to all intents and purposes thee best player on the planet. People wanted to be him, wanted to be a footballer, he changed the face of commercial relationships with clubs and players, he paved the way for the Beckhams, the big wages, the adulation, hype and blanket media coverage, not Munich. Are you trying to tell me he would have been as big a star as he was had there been no Europe and TV? Man Utd on the back of their European Cup triumph were suddenly the best team in the world, not based on opinion or here say, but fact and everyone who watched the game worldwide new it. That created a far bigger interest in Man Utd than Munich, Munich while real was unreal if you like, Man Utd the kings of Europe were real and tangible to people because they'd seen it with their own two eyes. There are stats in history books that indicate sales of footballs after that match, daft little things, Man Utd had to hire new staff to deal with things, they weren't just a British club anymore, they were a worldwide club.

 

TV, the impact TV has had on the game is the greatest and single most signficant thing to ever happen to the game, not Munich. Not just here in England but the world over. The facts can't be ignored.

 

I'd say Hillsborough and Heysel had a bigger impact on English football than Munich, never mind TV, Europe and '66.

 

Erm.......who?

 

By the way I think football was quite a popular passtime in England prior to the summer of 66.

 

Moore? Fuck me, I thought you knew your history...

[manc-mag 1]

Munich was like a business card, the win over Benfica was an advert.

 

That's nearly as good as "Failure is like a disease to Kevin Keegan....one with no cure."

It was more than a business card, it was more like a "here ye gan shag wor lass", Benfica was like "shag wor lass and her sister." Munich was the most pivotal moment in English football history.

 

Sorry that's bull Stevie, you're very knowledgeable about the history of football so I'm a bit taken aback by that comment. TV, the European Cup and 66 was the pivotal moments in English football history, that and the offside law which NUFC played a huge huge part in.

Munich heralded the start of people supporting teams from outside of their local area. Clubs like Bury, Rochdale, York etc... could all get 18-30,000 before the war and in the 50's because the local club was the be all and end all.

 

My grandmother came from Accrington, she's dead now, she was a huge Accrington Stanley fan, but she like the majority of people in her area all changed their allegiance when Munich happened. Speak to anyone of that generation, it was the main news every day for a month, a country was in mourning, it was the biggest thing since the war. If you notice after the boom of the late 40's and 50's, attendance wise crowds started to decrease significantly across the board, apart from clubs that were winning things, it was all a result of a chain of events started with the Munich Air Disaster.

 

Man Utd became a club who were now the nations favourite, the first lot of Busby Babes were decimated, the sympathy that the club received was unparalelled. A generation of young fans and football supporters in general, were consumed by the romantic search of their holy grail which was rebuilding the club and eventually laying the ghosts of Munich to rest by capturing the European Cup.

 

Munich was the catalyst for clubs gaining fan bases far beyond their local area, speak to any old twat they'll tell you the same, shortly after Liverpool's style under Shankly started to develop their fan base along with the advent of televised football and the World Cup win, but Munich was the catalyst, and is the key reason why as long as there is football as we know it Manchester United will be the biggest club, they always have been since 1958.

 

I'm not doubting that Stevie, but how was Munich the most pivotal moment in English football history? Was gaining extra fans that significant to the game in the grand scheme of things? Football's income at that time was gate reciepts and any sponsorship they could find, they weren't selling shirts or stadium tours, there were no TV subcsription channels so Man Utd or any team were in no position to prosper from new fans. Munich certainly didn't give Man Utd any advantage over any other team as claimed in this thread, more column inches perhaps but no extra advantages. Aye people from small towns with no real football team probably chose to support Man Utd on the back of Munich but this isn't unique and has always been the case right back to the game's inception - people in general who are semi-detached from football due a weak football presence in their community will pick out the most popular team or go with a team with good players, always have done, always will do. That's why Gateshead are shit I seriously doubt, on the back of Munich, bury fans decided to intead support Man Utd over Bury for example. Now today, that is evident but that's down to TV. Some of my family were from Swindon and Carlisle, they didn't swap those teams for Man Utd. Some did, big deal.

 

My main bone of contention with your theory anyway isn't whether Man Utd gained new fans on the back of Munich, I agree that they did and would have, I disagree 100% with your views that Munich was the pivotal moment in the history of our game however, or Manc Mag's views that Munich somehow gave Man Utd an advantage over everyone else or gave birth to the Man Utd we know today. It may have played a part in both but minimal at best. TV, Europe and the '66 World Cup changed the face of English football and indeed shaped the game today for what it is. Today the vast majority of income comes from TV, Europe is the be all and end all, while the nation still clings onto the notion that we are somehow a footballing superpower based on nothing more than the success of Bobby's boys.

 

Ironically an Aussie owns Sky, and the World Cup and European competition is a foreign concept which the vast majority of English football said no to at the time, oh and Munich happened on foreign soil too. England, the land that gave the world football? Don't make me laugh.

 

Anyhoo...

 

The 66' World Cup had a massive effect on the game and converted more non fans into fans than Munich ever did, all Munich did was test loyalty, the World Cup win converted an entire nation into football fans, regardless of location or class, or age or sex, and with it ensuring an endless supply of new footballers for the game's professional clubs. The large viewing figures also forced TV which had always had a "take it or leave it" stronghold over clubs, to rethink their policies. TV couldn't now live without football. That had a knock-on effect for the entire game and lead to bidding for TV rights which today provide clubs with huge sums of money. 20m next season apparently.

 

The European football age created megastars of world appeal, not just national. For the first time ever we could compare our top footballers to the continent's and this just made even bigger stars. Best won European footballer of the year, he was to all intents and purposes thee best player on the planet. People wanted to be him, wanted to be a footballer, he changed the face of commercial relationships with clubs and players, he paved the way for the Beckhams, the big wages, the adulation, hype and blanket media coverage, not Munich. Are you trying to tell me he would have been as big a star as he was had there been no Europe and TV? Man Utd on the back of their European Cup triumph were suddenly the best team in the world, not based on opinion or here say, but fact and everyone who watched the game worldwide new it. That created a far bigger interest in Man Utd than Munich, Munich while real was unreal if you like, Man Utd the kings of Europe were real and tangible to people because they'd seen it with their own two eyes. There are stats in history books that indicate sales of footballs after that match, daft little things, Man Utd had to hire new staff to deal with things, they weren't just a British club anymore, they were a worldwide club.

 

TV, the impact TV has had on the game is the greatest and single most signficant thing to ever happen to the game, not Munich. Not just here in England but the world over. The facts can't be ignored.

 

I'd say Hillsborough and Heysel had a bigger impact on English football than Munich, never mind TV, Europe and '66.

 

Erm.......who?

 

By the way I think football was quite a popular passtime in England prior to the summer of 66.

 

Moore? Fuck me, I thought you knew your history...

 

Sorry.......for some reason I'd assumed your pro-Bobby Robson bent had meant you'd absent mindedly made him England manager when we won in 66. Believe it or not I do know who Bobby Moore is.

 

It's a good point though actually in some ways, if 66 was as influential a moment as you say it was, why didnt we all become West Ham fans?

 

Not that I'm really arguing the '66 point.

 

Re your subsequent post directed at me, I concede that I'm influenced in some part by resentment or bias, but I'm also not without my critical faculties and if you can see the link between Man U becoming media favourites and the first domestic team with 'national' appeal as a result of Munich then i dont honestly think we've got much to argue about. You say you dont think that that has had any meaningful effect. My point is that it has endured since Munich and puts them in a unique position to capitalise in other ways if they choose to exploit it. My point is that they would go into global markets (as they emerge, obviously they dont create them) as the UK's main team whether they were winning or not and that is because of the media interest. You dont accept that and thats fair enough.

 

If you took a nationwide poll of football fans in the mid 1980's though when I was a kid (those who had no living memory of '58) and asked them who they supported, I guarantee you there would have been more Man U fans than Liverpool fans. And why? Liverpool were winning the league and had dominated Europe for ten years. Man U won the FA Cup and so suffered no hardship as fans, but it didnt compare success wise. Those kids probably didnt have any appreciation of Munich (I didn't), but that doesnt mean it did not impact on their decision to support Man U through the media forces/inherited family allegiances etc.

 

I just dont think thats an era of football you have any appreciation of hence my pre-SKY comments.

Edited January 24, 2007 by manc-mag

[Howaythetoon 0]

By the way I think football was quite a popular passtime in England prior to the summer of 66.

 

Again, for someone so experienced and knowledgeable you have it wrong. Everyone knows football didn't exist before Sky.

[manc-mag 1]

By the way I think football was quite a popular passtime in England prior to the summer of 66.

 

Again, for someone so experienced and knowledgeable you have it wrong. Everyone knows football didn't exist before Sky.

 

I only said it was 'quite' popular! You can't underestimate the Richard Keys sex appeal factor.

[Howaythetoon 0]

 

Sorry.......for some reason I'd assumed your pro-Bobby Robson bent had meant you'd absent mindedly made him England manager when we won in 66. Believe it or not I do know who Bobby Moore is.

 

It's a good point though actually in some ways, if 66 was as influential a moment as you say it was, why didnt we all become West Ham fans?

 

Not that I'm really arguing the '66 point.

 

Re your subsequent post directed at me, I concede that I'm influenced in some part by resentment or bias, but I'm also not without my critical faculties and if you can see the link between Man U becoming media favourites and the first domestic team with 'national' appeal as a result of Munich then i dont honestly think we've got much to argue about. You say you dont think that that has had any meaningful effect. My point is that it has endured since Munich and puts them in a unique position to capitalise in other ways if they choose to exploit it. My point is that they would go into global markets (as they emerge, obviously they dont create them) as the UK's main team whether they were winning or not and that is because of the media interest. You dont accept that and thats fair enough.

 

If you took a nationwide poll of football fans in the mid 1980's though when I was a kid (those who had no living memory of '58) and asked them who they supported, I guarantee you there would have been more Man U fans than Liverpool fans. And why? Liverpool were winning the league and had dominated Europe for ten years. Man U won the FA Cup and so suffered no hardship as fans, but it didnt compare success wise. Those kids probably didnt have any appreciation of Munich (I didn't), but that doesnt mean it did not impact on their decision to support Man U through the media forces/inherited family allegiances etc.

 

I just dont think thats an era of football you have any appreciation of hence my pre-SKY comments.

 

If Munich was as influential as you say it was....

 

And I don't debate with people whose views are clouded by bias and resentment.

[Guest alex]

Don't want to say what was neccessarily the pivotal moment in English football (very difficult to say imo) but 1966 was huge in making England (and English football generally) think it was the best in the world, knew best and had nothing to learn from continental influences. That attitude still exists today tbh (although 1966 isn't the only factor in this).

[Howaythetoon 0]

Don't want to say what was neccessarily the pivotal moment in English football (very difficult to say imo) but 1966 was huge in making England (and English football generally) think it was the best in the world, knew best and had nothing to learn from continental influences. That attitude still exists today tbh (although 1966 isn't the only factor in this).

 

Good point that. I wonder if that mentality also played a part in hooliganism, abroad anyway. Maybe not.

[manc-mag 1]

 

Sorry.......for some reason I'd assumed your pro-Bobby Robson bent had meant you'd absent mindedly made him England manager when we won in 66. Believe it or not I do know who Bobby Moore is.

 

It's a good point though actually in some ways, if 66 was as influential a moment as you say it was, why didnt we all become West Ham fans?

 

Not that I'm really arguing the '66 point.

 

Re your subsequent post directed at me, I concede that I'm influenced in some part by resentment or bias, but I'm also not without my critical faculties and if you can see the link between Man U becoming media favourites and the first domestic team with 'national' appeal as a result of Munich then i dont honestly think we've got much to argue about. You say you dont think that that has had any meaningful effect. My point is that it has endured since Munich and puts them in a unique position to capitalise in other ways if they choose to exploit it. My point is that they would go into global markets (as they emerge, obviously they dont create them) as the UK's main team whether they were winning or not and that is because of the media interest. You dont accept that and thats fair enough.

 

If you took a nationwide poll of football fans in the mid 1980's though when I was a kid (those who had no living memory of '58) and asked them who they supported, I guarantee you there would have been more Man U fans than Liverpool fans. And why? Liverpool were winning the league and had dominated Europe for ten years. Man U won the FA Cup and so suffered no hardship as fans, but it didnt compare success wise. Those kids probably didnt have any appreciation of Munich (I didn't), but that doesnt mean it did not impact on their decision to support Man U through the media forces/inherited family allegiances etc.

 

I just dont think thats an era of football you have any appreciation of hence my pre-SKY comments.

 

If Munich was as influential as you say it was....

 

And I don't debate with people whose views are clouded by bias and resentment.

 

My bias might account for my stomach for the debate, but it doesnt provide any arguments. Those require reasoned logic. If anything, the person who says that media publicity etc has no effect on the fortunes/advantages of something sounds less reasoned than the line I take.

[manc-mag 1]

Don't want to say what was neccessarily the pivotal moment in English football (very difficult to say imo) but 1966 was huge in making England (and English football generally) think it was the best in the world, knew best and had nothing to learn from continental influences. That attitude still exists today tbh (although 1966 isn't the only factor in this).

 

We hark back to it romantically. Doubt thats how the Italians and Germans have so many wins under their belts. History means nowt and you're nothing unless you can compete in the only tournament that matters-the present one.

[Howaythetoon 0]

 

Sorry.......for some reason I'd assumed your pro-Bobby Robson bent had meant you'd absent mindedly made him England manager when we won in 66. Believe it or not I do know who Bobby Moore is.

 

It's a good point though actually in some ways, if 66 was as influential a moment as you say it was, why didnt we all become West Ham fans?

 

Not that I'm really arguing the '66 point.

 

Re your subsequent post directed at me, I concede that I'm influenced in some part by resentment or bias, but I'm also not without my critical faculties and if you can see the link between Man U becoming media favourites and the first domestic team with 'national' appeal as a result of Munich then i dont honestly think we've got much to argue about. You say you dont think that that has had any meaningful effect. My point is that it has endured since Munich and puts them in a unique position to capitalise in other ways if they choose to exploit it. My point is that they would go into global markets (as they emerge, obviously they dont create them) as the UK's main team whether they were winning or not and that is because of the media interest. You dont accept that and thats fair enough.

 

If you took a nationwide poll of football fans in the mid 1980's though when I was a kid (those who had no living memory of '58) and asked them who they supported, I guarantee you there would have been more Man U fans than Liverpool fans. And why? Liverpool were winning the league and had dominated Europe for ten years. Man U won the FA Cup and so suffered no hardship as fans, but it didnt compare success wise. Those kids probably didnt have any appreciation of Munich (I didn't), but that doesnt mean it did not impact on their decision to support Man U through the media forces/inherited family allegiances etc.

 

I just dont think thats an era of football you have any appreciation of hence my pre-SKY comments.

 

If Munich was as influential as you say it was....

 

And I don't debate with people whose views are clouded by bias and resentment.

 

My bias might account for my stomach for the debate, but it doesnt provide any arguments. Those require reasoned logic. If anything, the person who says that media publicity etc has no effect on the fortunes/advantages of something sounds less reasoned than the line I take.

 

I'm joshing man, although I do think your bias and resentment can't be ignored when discussing such things and does, whether you like it or not, cloud your judgement somewhat. Anyway, to end the dabate I'll agree to disagree, I'm probably downplaying it too much while you're overplaying it, the truth is probably in between. I stand by my comments however that TV, Europe and '66 all had bigger impacts on the game than Munich (Stevie) and as a result, Man Utd too.

 

*looks for that sky remote*

[Guest stevieintoon]

You asked how Munich was a pivotal point in football history, there are so many reasons why, and I did my best to explain them before. 1958 for me heralded the start of globalisation of our sport, with the Munich Air Disaster. Before that we did local jobs, for the local economy, supporting our local team, very, very few people even considered the idea of supporting a club miles away. Take Celtic. Prior to 1997 the club had never averaged over 40,000 in a season. When they reached the final of the 1967 European Cup they were considered to be a very small club against the giants of Inter Milan. Celtic were always a club for the Catholic people in the East End of Glasgow or at best Stratchclyde. With that success in 1967, catholics everywhere and particularly in Ireland were procliaming themselves as hoops fans, and this phenomenon was a natural progression from the chain of events which happened at Munich Airport. All of this money in football now, it doesn't mean a thing.

 

Your questions

 

Did Man Utd benefit finanically from Munich? No

 

I don't think it's understating it to say never in the history of world sport, has a company benefitted so spectacularly, and not just overnight. Being a big club doesn't happen just like that. The reason we fail is because we have no foundations, we have foundations, but the foundations in place are no where near Manchester United's, they'll always be at the top, they'll always be the number one club, we're half a century later and the key catalyst of this was Munich.

 

Did Man Utd get extra points for a win because of Munich? No

 

Irrelevant

 

Did Man Utd's gates increase significantly because Munich? No

 

Over a three decade period when most clubs gates were on the wain Man Utd became consistently the best supported club in this country every season.

 

Did Man Utd's trophy cabinet grow because of Munich? No

 

This was an era (60-90) when small clubs like Derby, Forest, Villa, Everton, Southampton, Sunderland, Ipswich, Coventry, could all compete for major honours. There was far, far less of a monopoly on the trophies from the big clubs. A decent manager could win an average club trophies, it was still the peoples game and wasn't governed by greed like it is today. I think the fact Man Utd didn't win the league from 1967 to 1993, yet remained by a distance the countries number one club, absolutely emphasises the impact Munich had.

 

Did the media show bias toward's Man Utd? because of Munich Yes

 

In the aftermath of Munich yes.... Today no, the media is very much London-centric, and it is my opinion (it is only an opinion) that both the FA and Fleet Street would love Tottenham and Arsenal to dominate English football.

 

Did they gain extra fans because of Munich? Yes

 

Yes they did. They became an institution. Freddie Shepherd claims the toon are an institution and you know there's no more biased toon fan than me, but are we fuck. We had 7-8 years where every away ground in the country was sold out to the rafters because Newcastle and the entertainers were in town but it didn't last because we're not ingrained the nations psyche like Man Utd are. They could go 20 years in midtable, they'd still have the magic, the name, the legend that is Man Utd, and it was all born in Munich.

 

 

I agree with the point Hillsborough was a pivotal point, but things were beginning to change with Heysel, but without a shadow of a doubt Munich was a turning point arguably in world football.

Edited January 24, 2007 by stevieintoon