Holland to ban black post boxes

[Wullie 0]

[NewOrleansGeordie 0]

Definitely a strange restriction on personal freedoms when you're dictating what people can - and can't - wear.

 

However, despite my naturally left - leaning, tolerant attitudes, I can't help but feel that the European Muslim population in general only has itself to blame for the current intolerance towards them.

 

I know plenty of "westernised" muslims who go on about how the Koran doesn't advocate violence; how Islam allows respect towards other religions, etc. etc.

 

But for Muslims in the West to have any of my sympathy, they need to start being a whole lot more vocal on a public stage, in voicing their absolute opposition to violence perpetrated under the name of Islam (9/11, Tube bombings, etc.).

 

Absolutely shocking to me, how central London was just about shut down for 2 weekends running by militant Muslims protesting about a fucking Danish cartoon that they found offensive to their religion.

In comparison, Muslim response in terms of mobilising protests against Al-Quaida and other organizations using violence in the name of Islam, has been shocking in its absence. They SHOULD have closed down London with anti - Islamic extremist protests; chanting "Not in Our Name"...but this just didn't happen in anything like the numbers it should have done.

 

If there really is a place for Islam in a tolerant, non-violent and developed society like England of today...then get off your arses and show your opposition to those who employ violence and intolerance in the name of your religion - otherwise you will never have my sympathy when things like this happen...

Edited November 21, 2006 by NewOrleansGeordie

[Gemmill 44247]

This woman who works for BA and wants to have her cross on show is just as annoying as that silly bitch who wanted to teach kids through a veil. She's on GMTV now quoting from the bible to defend her position the fucking mental case.

[catmag 336]

This woman who works for BA and wants to have her cross on show is just as annoying as that silly bitch who wanted to teach kids through a veil. She's on GMTV now quoting from the bible to defend her position the fucking mental case.

 

However her point is just as valid.

[Gemmill 44247]

This woman who works for BA and wants to have her cross on show is just as annoying as that silly bitch who wanted to teach kids through a veil. She's on GMTV now quoting from the bible to defend her position the fucking mental case.

 

However her point is just as valid.

 

I'm not really bothered whether she wears her cross or not, but when she start coming out with "It is written in the bible...." and quoting scripture she looks a bit daft imo. If BA let her wear the cross it'll not be because of something that's written in the bible. Although, yes, she should be allowed to wear it if she wants.

[Jimbo 172]

I'm not bothered about the woman wearing her cross either, the thing that bothers me is that I suspect that if the person had been a male sikh he wouldn't have been told to remove his Turban.

[curry stained pilchard 0]

BA said in a statement: "British Airways has 34,000 uniformed staff, all of whom know they must abide by our uniform policy.

 

"The policy does not ban staff from wearing a cross. It lays down that personal items of jewellery, including crosses may be worn - but underneath the uniform. Other airlines have the same policy.

 

"The policy recognises that it is not practical for some religious symbols - such as turbans and hijabs - to be worn underneath the uniform. This is purely a question of practicality. There is no discrimination between faiths.

 

"In Nadia Eweida's case, she is not suspended and we want her to come back to work. We have explained to her the need to comply with the uniform policy like all her colleagues whatever their faith."

 

BA said Ms Eweida had been offered a non-uniformed post were she would be able to openly wear her cross but had refused to take it.

 

I don't think BA (not Baracas, he would never have got on a plane, unless of course he drank some of Murdoch's doctored milk) have done anything wrong here. The rules seem to be clearly set out for her job. Silly bint...

[Gemmill 44247]

BA said in a statement: "British Airways has 34,000 uniformed staff, all of whom know they must abide by our uniform policy.

 

"The policy does not ban staff from wearing a cross. It lays down that personal items of jewellery, including crosses may be worn - but underneath the uniform. Other airlines have the same policy.

 

"The policy recognises that it is not practical for some religious symbols - such as turbans and hijabs - to be worn underneath the uniform. This is purely a question of practicality. There is no discrimination between faiths.

 

"In Nadia Eweida's case, she is not suspended and we want her to come back to work. We have explained to her the need to comply with the uniform policy like all her colleagues whatever their faith."

 

BA said Ms Eweida had been offered a non-uniformed post were she would be able to openly wear her cross but had refused to take it.

 

I don't think BA (not Baracas, he would never have got on a plane, unless of course he drank some of Murdoch's doctored milk) have done anything wrong here. The rules seem to be clearly set out for her job. Silly bint...

 

Aye reading the policy she doesn't really have a leg to stand on. Surely her faith is a personal matter anyway, so having to wear the cross under her uniform really shouldn't be an issue. I would have thought the fact that she knows that she's wearing it should be enough. Unless she's trying to ward off vampires.

[ewerk 30219]

 

But for Muslims in the West to have any of my sympathy, they need to start being a whole lot more vocal on a public stage, in voicing their absolute opposition to violence perpetrated under the name of Islam (9/11, Tube bombings, etc.).

 

 

 

[bobbyshinton 59]

 

But for Muslims in the West to have any of my sympathy, they need to start being a whole lot more vocal on a public stage, in voicing their absolute opposition to violence perpetrated under the name of Islam (9/11, Tube bombings, etc.).

 

 

 

 

I was under the impression BA did not object to the wearing of the cross, but wearing jewelrey on view is against their policy, if so she is wrong.

 

By the way I'm in the send them home camp, if they don't like it fuck off, or put a uniform on and fight the invading forces.

[Guest alex]

Send who home? The 7/7 bombers were British.

[bobbyshinton 59]

Send who home? The 7/7 bombers were British.

 

 

Sorry knew I worded that wrong. Send them to the country they are supporting, i'm sure it's most likely not to their liking

[Guest alex]

I agree with you there, if they went to a country such as Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan (under the Taliban) where they had Sharia Law they would be brutally repressed by the authorities for preaching hate. The extremists in this country want it both ways, freedom and Sharia Law. I particularly detest extremist preachers as I think they are hypocritical cowards, i.e. they are asking impressionable young men to do things they wouldn't do themselves, i.e. suicide bombings and so on.

[manc-mag 1]

Crucifixes worn outside of tops? Argos-chav-tastic tbh.

[Guest alex]

Crucifixes worn outside of tops? Argos-chav-tastic tbh.

Almost as bad as wearing a plain gold chain I reckon.

[manc-mag 1]

Crucifixes worn outside of tops? Argos-chav-tastic tbh.

Almost as bad as wearing a plain gold chain I reckon.

 

I'll have you for that. It's a throwback to my slave heritage and references the shackles of my forebears. Discrimination tbh.

[Guest alex]

What'ver mon

[manc-mag 1]

Actually it's cos I'm a tart.

[snakehips 0]

As each day passes, we in 'the west' appear to be getting more and more muslim-phobic. This can only lead to more dis-illusioned muslims feeling alienated and joining 'the cause' (whatever 'the cause' is).

 

The biggest problem we have, and one we will, unfortuantely, probably never eradicate, is discovering why people have a desire to kill other people (whether that is IRA/UDA/Al Queada (sp)/Maoists or whoever).

[The Fish 10681]

speaking of religious hate figures, did anyone see that an evangelical christian who railed against homosexuals has been outed by his Crystal Meth-pushing prostitute boyfriend?

 

Ted Haggard: Victim of His Own Spiritual Warfare

By: DOUG IRELAND

11/08/2006

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The Reverend Ted Haggard used to talk every Monday to George W. Bush or one of his top advisers. But there won't be any more of those conversations now that the man the members of his 14,000-member New Life mega-church in Colorado Springs called "Pastor Ted" has been dismissed from the church's ministry for "immoral sexual conduct" involving a three-year paid relationship with a gay male prostitute.

 

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Haggard was also forced to step down this past weekend as president of the politically influential National Association of Evangelicals, whose 52 affiliated denominations claim to represent some 30 million "born-again" Christians. In a profile of Haggard last year by Jeff Sharlet, Harper's magazine reported, "No pastor in America holds more sway over the political direction of evangelicalism than does Pastor Ted," and said he was at least as politically powerful a Christian right figure as James Dobson, the broadcaster who heads the treasury-rich Focus on the Family.

 

It was Haggard's vociferous support for adding a ban on gay marriage to Colorado's Constitution that caused his downfall-because after Denver rent-boy Mike Jones saw Haggard on television campaigning in favor of the anti-same-sex marriage referendum known as Colorado Amendment 43 and researched Haggard's crusading against homosexuality on the Internet, he decided to go public last Wednesday. He revealed how he'd had a "business sexual relationship" with Haggard involving monthly trysts for three years at $200 a pop-with the last one occurring in August.

 

Haggard was a prime mover behind the anti-gay marriage referendum, and also opposed Colorado's Referendum I, which would have enabled same-sex couples to register as domestic partners, receiving most of the same rights as married couples under state law-although it would not have guarenteed that they could adopt children from all agencies. Jones told the Rocky Mountain News he revealed his paid relationship with Haggard because he hoped that it would influence voters to oppose Amendment 43 and support Referendum I.

 

On Tuesday, 54.2 percent of Colorado voters rejected the domestic partner initiative, and 56.5 percent approved the anti-gay marriage amendment.

 

"I believe in God," Jones said. "I've always had faith."

 

This past Sunday, in the midst of a media firestorm provoked by Jones' revelations, Haggard- in a letter read to the congregation of his mega-church-confessed, "I am guilty of sexual immorality... I am a deceiver and a liar. There is a part of my life that is so repulsive and dark that I've been warring against it all of my adult life."

 

Haggard also beseeched his former flock, "Please forgive my accuser. He is revealing the deception and sensuality that was in my life. Those sins, and others, need to be dealt with harshly."

 

The Reverend Larry Stockstill, who read Haggard's letter and is chairman of the New Life overseer board that fired him, told the congregants: "This hurts. This rocks our world."

 

The hooker with a conscience who outed Haggard also revealed that during the three years Haggard paid him for sex, he also helped the charismatic, married preacher buy crystal methamphetamine, a Schedule 2 controlled substance. Jones, a 48-year-old, pumped-up gym bunny who was raised a Methodist and is the son of a law enforcement officer, told MSNBC that Haggard snorted meth each time he visited Jones for sex. These sexual rendezvous always took place in Jones' home, because Haggard did not want to be seen with him in public.

 

Jones said he has received two death threats since identifying Haggard last Wednesday. "I have not jumped up and down," Jones told the Denver Post and radio station KHOW. "I have not partied. This is not a fun time."

Haggard's confessional letter to New Life Church members contained no specifics and no reference to the use of meth-he had earlier claimed to the news media that he bought the meth but "did not use it." But Jones played for news outlets two tape-recorded messages from the client he knew as "Art" asking Jones to buy "more" meth for him. A voice expert retained by a Denver TV station said that the voice of "Art" in those recordings was Haggard's voice. Haggard's middle name is Arthur.

 

When Haggard became president of the National Association of Evangelicals in 2003, he moved its headquarters from Los Angeles to his sprawling New Life Church complex in Colorado Springs, a city often referred to as the "Evangelicals' Vatican" and home to more than 400 Christian conservative churches, associations, and action groups, as well as the Bible-besotted Air Force Academy. Since the move, all the NAE's staff members have been paid for by Haggard's church.

 

Haggard, who helped shape the Bush administration's "faith-based initiatives"-a patronage program for the Christian right-and whose preachings linked conservative "free enterprise capitalism" and religion, encouraged the president to invade Iraq.

 

"I teach a strong ideology of the use of power, of military might, as a public service," he told Harper's, adding that he is for preemptive war, because he believes the Bible's exhortations against sin set a preemptive paradigm, and he is for ferocious war, because "the Bible's bloody. There's a lot about blood."

 

"We [Christians] have lost every major city in North America," Haggard wrote in his 1995 book "Primary Purpose," but said they can be reclaimed through "violent, confrontive [sic] prayer." He encouraged believers to obtain maps of cities and to identify "power points" that "strengthen the demonic activities"-like gay bars. Indeed, staking out gay bars and trying to dragoon their patrons into coming to his services was one of the activities that helped Haggard build the New Life Church he founded.

 

Haggard-who says he believes in "spiritual war"-organized his 14,000 congregants as "warriors" in a paramilitary, pyramid structure of 1,300 cell groups, whose members were commanded by section leaders, who reported to zone leaders, who were under the thumb of district leaders, who all answered to Haggard. This phalanx of spiritual warriors made the New Life Church a potent force in Colorado politics. And it's a model Haggard sought to replicate elsewhere-and not only in the U.S.

Haggard also headed a smaller network, the Association of Life-Giving Churches, 300 or so congregations modeled on New Life's conception of "spiritual warfare," including a large sister New Life Church in Ukraine, where the number of evangelicals has grown from 250,000 to 3 million in the last decade. Haggard claimed credit for his sister church's helping spearhead the so-called "Orange Revolution" in Ukraine in 2004 and 2005.

 

Haggard's downfall is a severe blow to the Christian right evangelicals, and may well initiate a new witch-hunt for closeted homosexuals within their ranks, as the widely read Christian Post suggested in an editorial this week, saying that the Haggard scandal was a "dark exposure of how deeply the sin of homosexuality has taken root in the American society. If the accusations are indeed true, now would be the time for the Evangelical community to look within its own walls and battle against the culture of sin that looms before the Church of Christ."

 

Sharlet, the author of the Harper's profile on Haggard, wrote this week in The Revealer, the daily bulletin of the Center on Religion and the Press at New York University which he edits, that he talked to Haggard's accuser Jones "on the phone."

 

"He's not vindictive, nor particularly political; he's voted for Republicans and Democrats," Sharlet reported. "He struggled with his decision, out of compassion for a man in the closet. He was motivated, he said, simply by being a gay man who's been around long enough to know how Ted's politics play out in the ordinary lives of people Jones cares about. That's about as good a motive for outing someone as I've ever heard."

 

But, added Sharlet, Haggard is "also another victim of the very closet over which he publicly stands guard, as are all the New Life Church members he's led into it. That story may not make the mainstream media. Indeed, it seems unlikely that Ted's downfall will be reported with any more nuance than that of Mark Foley's political collapse... The downfall of Ted Haggard is not just another tale of hypocrisy, it's a parable of the paradoxes at the heart of American fundamentalism."

 

and purely because it mentions "Overseers board" which is perhaps the most ominous/James Bond sounding thing I've heard of outside of the movies.

 

COLORADO SPRINGS, Colorado (CNN) -- The Rev. Ted Haggard agreed Saturday to resign as leader of the megachurch he started in his basement more than 20 years ago after its independent investigative board said he was guilty of "sexually immoral conduct."

 

On Friday, Haggard admitted he had received a massage from a Denver man who claimed the prominent pastor had paid him for sex over three years. Haggard also admitted he had bought methamphetamine.

 

Haggard, in an interview with CNN affiliate KUSA, denied having sex with Mike Jones and said he did not use the drug and threw it away.

 

After the allegations were made public, Haggard resigned as president of the influential National Association of Evangelicals, an umbrella group representing more than 45,000 churches with 30 million members.

 

He also temporarily stepped aside as pastor of the 14,000-member New Life Church. (Parishioners stand by Haggard)

 

But on Saturday overseers of the church recommended he be permanently removed.

 

"We, the Overseer Board of New Life Church Dum dum DUMMMM, have concluded our deliberations concerning the moral failings of Pastor Ted Haggard," a statement from the church said.

 

"Our investigation and Pastor Haggard's public statements have proven without a doubt that he has committed sexually immoral conduct."

 

Haggard, 50, and his wife were informed of the decision, the statement said, and "they have agreed as well that he should be dismissed and that a new pastor for New Life Church should be selected according to the rules of replacement in the bylaws."

 

The statement said "a letter of explanation and apology" from Haggard and "a word of encouragement" from his wife, Gayle, would be read at Sunday morning services.

 

The couple has five children.

 

The church's statement said the investigation would continue to determine the extent of Haggard's misconduct.

 

The Rev. Ross Parsley will lead the New Life Church until a permanent replacement for Haggard is chosen, something that should happen by the end of the year, the statement said.

 

"Please continue to pray for Pastor Ted and his family, and let's all continue to stand strong together for the kingdom of God," Parsley's note to church members said. "We will get through this together. Remember, New Life Church has never been a man, a building or anything else -- we are a family."

 

Although Haggard initially denied even knowing Jones, the pastor admitted on camera Friday to a Denver CNN affiliate that he sought a massage from him. Haggard also admitted buying methamphetamine but said he did not use it.

 

"I was buying it for me, but I never used it," said Haggard, sitting in the driver's seat of a car with his wife, Gayle, at his side during an impromptu interview with KUSA-TV.

 

"I never kept it very long because it was wrong. I was tempted. I bought it. But I never used it." Haggard also acknowledged contacting Jones but has denied Jones' accusation that the two men regularly had sex over three years. (Watch how the scandal has quickly unfolded -- 3:35 Video)

 

Haggard's admissions resonated among America's evangelicals and Christian leaders.

 

Haggard was one of a group of religious leaders who regularly participated in conference calls with White House aides, Time magazine reported.

 

On Friday, the White House sought to downplay Haggard's influence within the administration.

 

Spokesman Tony Fratto told reporters Friday that it was inaccurate to portray him as being close to the White House, insisting Haggard was only an occasional participant in weekly conference calls between West Wing staff and leading evangelicals.

 

"He has been on a couple of calls," Fratto said. "He's been to the White House one or two times."

 

Last year, Time -- citing Haggard's White House access -- put him on its list of the nation's 25 most influential evangelicals. (Time.com articleexternal link)

 

Many religious leaders had rallied to the pastor's defense when the allegations broke earlier in the week.

Dobson: He's still my friend

 

But Focus on the Family founder James Dobson -- who had castigated the media Thursday for reporting Jones' allegations -- issued a statement Friday saying he was "heartsick" upon learning of Haggard's admissions.

 

"The possibility that an illicit relationship has occurred is alarming to us and to millions of others," Dobson said.

 

"He will continue to be my friend, even if the worst allegations prove accurate," he continued. "Nevertheless, sexual sin, whether homosexual or heterosexual, has serious consequences."

 

Tony Perkins, head of the Family Research Council, a Washington-based conservative policy group, said he was "saddened to learn of these allegations of reprehensible behavior."

 

"In his position as a leader of the evangelical community, this personal tragedy has public ramifications, so we urge that a full accounting of the facts be swift and complete," he said in a statement.

 

In an interview Friday with CNN, Jones said he went public with his allegations because of Haggard's support for a state constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage that is on the ballot next week in Colorado.

 

"For someone who is up there preaching that marriage should only be between a man and a woman, and he's going behind his wife's back and seeing a gay man for sex -- I felt like I owed it to the gay community to expose the hypocrisy," Jones said.( Watch Jones describe how he and Haggard "hooked up" -- 7:26 Video)

Unclear polygraph test

 

Jones' account of events also came under scrutiny Friday after he voluntarily took a polygraph test for Denver's KHOW radio, where he originally made his allegations Wednesday.

 

The polygraph examiner concluded Jones showed some "deception."

 

However, the examiner said because Jones was exhausted at the time the test was administered it would need to be redone after he slept and ate to get more reliable results.

 

Jones told CNN that the part of the test he failed was on the question of whether he and Haggard had sex. "I don't understand why I did fail the part about when they asked me if I had sex with Ted Haggard," he said. "That's the reason he contacted me to begin with." (Watch Jones' take on Haggard's denial -- 1:20)

 

Haggard told KUSA that he was "grateful that [Jones] failed the polygraph test."

 

The Denver Police Department issued a statement saying it was "watching this situation unfold" and planned "on reaching out to the involved parties for information on crimes that may have been committed in Denver."

 

Haggard on Friday said a Denver hotel where he was staying referred him to Jones for a massage, and Jones "told him about" the methamphetamine. (Watch Haggard's response to whether he knows gay men in Denver -- 2:07 Video)

 

He did not identify the hotel. Jones told CNN he did not sell methamphetamine to Haggard, but he said he gave Haggard a contact to obtain the drug and saw him use it on multiple occasions. He also said he was "not listed with any concierge" at a Denver hotel.

 

Asked about Haggard's continued denials of a sexual relationship, Jones noted that Haggard had denied even knowing him until he released voice mails he said he had kept from Haggard.

 

"The more denial he gives, the messier he looks," Jones said.

 

An expert hired by KUSA concluded the voice on the messages was probably Haggard, and a more detailed analysis was under way. The pastor admitted Friday that he did call Jones "to buy some meth, but I threw it away." (Watch what Haggard said about the drugs he bought -- 1:59)

 

Jones has said he met Haggard three years ago when the pastor answered his escort ad, pretending to be a man from Kansas City named "Art." He said their sexual encounters continued monthly until August.

 

Haggard's middle name is Arthur.

 

Jones, who has said he no longer works as a prostitute, told CNN he only learned Art's identity several months ago, when he recognized Haggard on TV.

 

"You can't put yourself in the position he was in and want respect and people to follow your words when you're actually doing the opposite behind their backs," Jones said.

 

 

[Gemmill 44247]

Denver rent-boy Mike Jones

 

If you had to dream up pretty much the worst lead-in to your name ever, you couldn't do much worse than "Denver rent-boy".

[manc-mag 1]

Denver rent-boy Mike Jones

 

If you had to dream up pretty much the worst lead-in to your name ever, you couldn't do much worse than "Denver rent-boy".

 

 

Anyone else hearing that as the popular refrain "Chelsea rent-boy(s)"

[The Fish 10681]

Lol, just came back to my computer to find in my Google searchbar "Christian Evangelical Gay Crystal Meth"

 

thank fuck I found that and it wasn't the most awkward question to come home to.

 

"Honey...we need to talk...."

[Papa Lazaru 0]

 

Nice work Wullie!

[Rob W 0]

Things have come to a pretty bloody pass when a Govt decides what people can and cannot wear TBH