NJS

I'm actually a big Joy Division fan as well - the list I gave off the top of my head in a rush is not the entire extent of my collection and I recognise many other influences in other bands I like. The "ancestors" of any band are not as simplistic as either you or I have argued in this thread for effect - they tend to be much more multi-faceted but I'd still maintain that U2 have a place high up in a lot of "good" music. The period you dismiss for U2 for examples includes The Joshua Tree and Achtung Baby - two albums I have read being mentioned by loads of other musicians as being big influences.

Exactly, it all down to personal taste, and it's pointless arguing about it really. Now personally, I respect U2 but somehow could never bring myself to waste time listening to them, unless they were played at a pub/club/wedding do etc. They are just too bland and don't suit my tastes. I've never particularly minded Bono though, although again I would never listen to an interview with him if I could avoid it. 59465[/snapback] THis what I'm getting at - its not so much about liking or disliking them its about degrees of respect. I like HM quite a lot and Black Sabbath are one of my faves. Its recognised that Sabbath along with Led Zep and Deep Purple are "founding fathers" of the genre. As it happens I've never liked Led Zep's music but I still "respect" their place in the scheme of things. More than 95% of the music I listen to is guitar based. Even if I don't like a particular band/artist the fact that they use guitars "properly" means I consider them as having a good start and worthy of a base level of respect. To use phrases like "wipe their existence from history" for any guitar based band is just something I couldn't contemplate. I save any contempt I have for artists and genres who don't "bat for my team" like mainstream dance which I find painful to listen to and manufactured pop. 59787[/snapback] What absolute bollocks! You are saying that U2 ARE THE INFLUENCE on all contempary guitar based bands. What you think they invented stadium rock??? You think that because Bono strutted around in leather pants Michael Hutchence decided to follow? NJS you seem like a person with more musical knowledge than that but obviously that's not the case. I'm amazed at people's complete lack of knowledge or is it just ignorance? Jim Morrison, Iggy Pop, Lou Reed, Zepplin, Purple, bowie, the birds, the stones, the who, the 60's psychedelic, the blues masters, glam rock, the whole English punk movement, new wave, fuck even Paul Weller are far bigger influences on contempary guitar bands than the U2. I give you this U2 are good as a point of reference for contempary bands as to how successful they are in comparison for record sales and gig sizes. But is that really anyway to measure music??? No, I think not. 59849[/snapback] There a lot of modern bands for which U2 are a major influence and there a lot of other bands for which they are AN influence. To reject the notion so positively shows your ignorance imo. I also don't accept that most British based guitar bands have any nos to the like of Morrison, Pop and Reed. There was an explosion of "u2" type rock and related indie in the very early 80s - if your named influences hold why did it not exist previously?

Exactly, it all down to personal taste, and it's pointless arguing about it really. Now personally, I respect U2 but somehow could never bring myself to waste time listening to them, unless they were played at a pub/club/wedding do etc. They are just too bland and don't suit my tastes. I've never particularly minded Bono though, although again I would never listen to an interview with him if I could avoid it. 59465[/snapback] THis what I'm getting at - its not so much about liking or disliking them its about degrees of respect. I like HM quite a lot and Black Sabbath are one of my faves. Its recognised that Sabbath along with Led Zep and Deep Purple are "founding fathers" of the genre. As it happens I've never liked Led Zep's music but I still "respect" their place in the scheme of things. More than 95% of the music I listen to is guitar based. Even if I don't like a particular band/artist the fact that they use guitars "properly" means I consider them as having a good start and worthy of a base level of respect. To use phrases like "wipe their existence from history" for any guitar based band is just something I couldn't contemplate. I save any contempt I have for artists and genres who don't "bat for my team" like mainstream dance which I find painful to listen to and manufactured pop.

Just a quick addition - to echo what HF said there is an "admission" of influence that people may or may not make depending on whether they want to kiss arse/be honest (see Oasis and The Beatles) but I was more talking about a general influence that U2 and other bands who started at that time have on modern indie/non-metal rock. TBH I don't know much about American music in the 70s but from a UK pov guitar melody driven music that I like mainly stems from the late 70s/early 80s scene which had roots in both punk and HM. U2 are a huge factor in that. My point wasn't that everyone should like U2 - just that I find it strange that people can in general terms shape their taste on similar lines yet sneer so much at such an important part of that genre (used in very general terms).

Will do a full reply later but... Listen to Boy and October then listen to Pablo Honey and The Bends (don't care about later knob twiddling twattery) and spot the obvious. INXS may have alreay existed but Hutchence based their entire "succesfull" period on U2 and himself on Bono so much he could have sued. Green Day have moved on from punkish roots to beone of the biggest "stadium" bands in the world by becoming more mainstream - sound familiar?

Who and who? 59245[/snapback] If you mean who I think has generally decent taste then Steve and Alreetlike - I don't know enough about your taste. As for influenced I'd say most guitar driven rock from the 80s onwards can said to occasionally give nods to U2 - ranging from their early punk based stuff to later flirtations with dance I'd name glancing through my track collection: Ash, Big Country, Bloc Party, Bush, Coldplay, Deacon Blue, Doves, Elbow, Feeder, Foo Fighters, Green Day, Idlewild, INXS, James, Jet, Jimmy Eat World, Keane, Manics (post Richey), Mercury Rev, Muse, Oasis, Placebo, Pulp, Puressence, Radiohead, Simple Minds, Smashing Pumpkins, Snow Patrol, Stereophonics, The Charlatans, The Cure, The Killers, The Verve, Travis.

There are people who've posted in this thread who I know like decent guitar based music so I find it strange that such contempt is shown for a band who have influenced so many of that genre, consistently produced good music for more than 25 years, always toured committedly when other bands give up and as a sidleine have a lead singer who despite being a bit of a wanker "off the pitch" has actually done more "good" in the world in practical terms than anyone on here could ever dream of. As an aside a hip-hop fan accusing anybody of not being able to sing is one of the most laughable music based comments I've ever read.

So if any Charlton fans are aressted at any match they'll voluntarily ban their own will they? I agree with Gemmill but I'd relegate Charlton for shit like this. KCG - they've warned us before - who do you think they'll pick on next if Man U are banned?

I don't agree - though a lot more comedians are around compared with comediennes I think there are a few decent ones. I don't mind Jo Brand in small doses and find her infinitely more funny than Lee Evans or Jimmy Carr. I never liked Victoria Wood but thought the Roseanne TV show was generally quality though I'm unfamilar with any of her other work. If I watch the Stand up shows on paramount I find the quality to be variable but gender does not seem to be a factor in that.

"Shit" I can take - just the gay thing for those two shows is a bit off

You've just lost any credibility you had on here tbh. 57165[/snapback] I think you'll find Papa Lazaru is big fan as well. 57226[/snapback] Christ! This place gets more lavender by the minute. 57233[/snapback] Have you actually watched Angel? Name another TV series where the DVDs are 18s because of the violence (The Sopranos and The Shield are the only ones that spring to mind). Do you have any idea how much top tottie was in Buffy?

You've just lost any credibility you had on here tbh. 57165[/snapback] I think you'll find Papa Lazaru is big fan as well.

I'm a huge Buffy and Angel fan and I thought it was pretty good but not as good as other fans thought it was. I enjoyed it but it didn't really grab me. I watched the movie last week and found myself not really caring about the characters enough. I do agree its cancellation was criminal though.

Very sorry to hear that. RIP

"Our Own" / "those who aren't" = "Inferior" = "Racism" "Why do you want to accomodate racists in this country ?" - I don't but I can't deport you. "What will you do?" - Criminals should face a fair trial regardless of colour - is that concept so anarchic? Do you then want sentences based on race?

To where would you deport the scum who rioted in the Meadowell and Scotswood 14 or 15 years ago? Problems should be addressed not swept under the carpet - none will get a trial will they?

Amen to that. 54680[/snapback] Yep - 10 minutes at V about 5 years ago was enough for me to realise that. That night (21st) I will be watching the Goddess Kristin Hersh.

I agree he's a zealot and some of his "this is a fact" rhetoric leaves me uneasy at times but I admire his willingness to stand up and quite literally be a target for stating his views. I wish more people had the courage to stand firm against ignorance. 54513[/snapback] I'm hopefully meeting Dawkins in the New Year. I agree he comes across as a zealot, and maybe a bit smug too, but he's preaching to the converted in my case, so I don't mind much. He married doctor Who's assistant as well. A cave girl iirc. 54515[/snapback] No Lalla Ward was a female Time Lord - sorry for the geekdom I saw him on a late night discussion show a few months ago about religion - he came across well with his "You're right and every other belief system is wrong" summary of their basic flaw.

I agree he's a zealot and some of his "this is a fact" rhetoric leaves me uneasy at times but I admire his willingness to stand up and quite literally be a target for stating his views. I wish more people had the courage to stand firm against ignorance.

That pesky flood has a lot to answer for.

As I've said before its frustrating trying to argue with irrationality. If you demanded of them the same "harsh" scientific view of their "theories" the response of "It was God" hardly stands up. My Mam is an intelligent woman and a staunch catholic. She completely accepts the evolutionary history of the world and has no objection to the "universe is 14billion years old" line. Her faith is that her God created the big bang. I don't agree but she could teach those ignorant bastards a thing or two.

Just read an interesting article this morning: Evolution is fact The morons can't grasp the time periods involved - I find it hard having read a few books on the subject. The common ancestor we share with Chimpanzees lived 6 million years ago - a scary concept which pales into insignificance compared with the 3.5 billion years of life itself. I recently finished "The Ancestors Tale" by Dawkins and I'd recommend it. In the final paragraph he states his view which I share which is as follows: "My objection to supernatural beliefs is precisely that they fail miserably to do justice to the sublime grandeur of the real world. They represent a narrowing-down of reality, an impoverishment of what the real world has to offer". The idiots in Kansas fear knowledge - knowledge is the enemy of faith.

I think that was a confidence thing though Alex - the team "know" they have a record of not holding leads and that makes them nervous - hopefully the few wins will help that.

Yes I'm an "end of this season" man. I would however take this "entertainment" factor everyone is discussing into account. Thats why I was unhappy with Bobby's last full season as that factor was piss poor imo. Booting him out now comes down to previous arguments - unless it was for Hitzfeld or similar its pointless in my view - We'd just get a Bruce.

Eh? 3 or 4 games? Is that a typo, or what? 53639[/snapback] 3 or 4 games in the context of "his full team" as you emphasised in this thread.