NJS

I agree with that but I'd say it again comes down to a personal definition of God - if someone says "this is how my God worked his magic with evolution" then thats fine even though I don't agree. All I'm saying is that in terms of the general definition of the Abrahamic God based on the bible it doesn't equate imo. This is where I think a person who does have their own definition who dips into the bible for moral lessons is "fine" (though I dispute the need to look there) but the more dogmatic believers who want to hold onto some if not all biblical "truths" are the more "dangerous" in my view. My opinion is that science and religion are irreconcilable. You can't accept the scientific method and recognise that everything should be investigated and then have lines which can't be crossed and get out clauses for things you don't understand. For an example I keep reading anti-atheist articles talking about the "magic of love" etc, etc and denying that brain chemistry can explain it. Heres a hint - look up Oxytocin.

No offence Meenzer but I doubt most men watching any of that would care what she cooked or what she said. That doesn't mean you're wrong and she might not be someone I'd like to actually go out with but my God is she shaggable. Sorry, I just know the image of her Dad would force its way into my head at a critical moment and that spells disaster. She did feature in a list in Viz which covered that exact situation and I agreed at the time - the list also included Angelina Jolie which I also agreed with but I've managed to overcome the problem in her case and I reckon probably in Nigella's case as well. Can't remember who else was on the list.

No offence Meenzer but I doubt most men watching any of that would care what she cooked or what she said. That doesn't mean you're wrong and she might not be someone I'd like to actually go out with but my God is she shaggable.

I don't agree, if that were true then why would so many sensible theists have such a specific problem with it? Evolution takes human beings out of a special place in the Universe, whereas all the major religions, at least the Abrahamic ones, have us at the centre of the Universe. We are supposedly created in God's image after all. If we are descended from apes, what does that say about God? Exactly - by the time Darwin released Origin there was widespread acceptance that the earth was millions of years old (the exact figure unknown) - the reason for the opposition was that humans (more specifically white Europeans) were considered "one step down from angels" and certainly not as animals. People were able to come up with ideas like the "days" being millenia (ignoring the wrong order) but common descent and close relationship with animals (though blindingly obvious) was and is a step too far for many.

I think I should make clear that I don't believe in Christianity simply because I live in a country where the biggest religion is Christianity and that I've had a Christian upbringing. People generally come to Christ through their own experience - something that is supposed to not happen in Islam. This is why Christianity deals with a personal relationship with God and not merely just a belief. If the only reason to believe was the country I'm in it wouldn't surprise me to think I could well be an atheist now, being a pretty sceptical guy myself. As it stands I think there is a lot of evidence for Christianity in different forms. The Bible clearly states God will respond if people come to him, which is what atheists aren't prepared to do. You make a fair point about different countries, however the Bible again makes a case that you can still get eternal life even if you don't follow Christianity. Otherwise, it would be quite tough for those in Saudi Arabia. As for your point about an unequal world, sadly I doubt God designed it that way, yet he gives free will if you go by the Bible and that is how Egypt for example, was invaded and became an Islamic country. I accept you have made points which I've partly responded to with my point about skeptics/atheists refusing to come to God, but I'm not going to deny there's some issues we can't answer. This doesn't however mean the religion is stupid. Certainly not right now can we say that. Thats your take but surely you are aware that a lot of christians (and other faiths) believe that only they are saved and the rest are damned.

My Mam was a catholic who completely accepted evolution but believed God kicked it all off 14bn years ago - more akin to deism than theism which I admit is harder to disprove as easily as pointing out the "atheists for all the Gods bar one" argument. On Renton's point I get the feeling you may be one of the few who "chose" a system from the menu rather than a simple matter of upbringing - I have to say I find myself in two minds on such cases - I respect the choice but it goes against my brainwashing argument and Renton's regional fluke argument which I think are generally valid.

I accept that premise but still haven't seen a good explanation for such an acceptance - the mass extinctions and dead ends for our ancestors in our past suggest to me a very "disjointed" plan at best. I think even if it were the case thats a long way from the all powerful God most believers define. On the ratiionality of Christianity I would go back to the biblical "truth" - the base premise of that religion is Christ dying for our sins which results from the fall - that fall (ie the Garden of Eden story) would then have to be "true" for the faith to make sense. This brings us back to Genesis - if christians now describe it as a "metaphor" or whatever rather than fact where does that leave the original sin?

I'm reserving judgement on Nobby until I found out what his ex does for a living. He said she moved for career reasons. If she has a job which is "normal" ie one where the contribution of his salary makes it nothing more than a hobby and theres no real reason to shift to London than I feel no sympathy towards him - he should have increased her money for the ONE YEAR of his remaining contract to persuade her not to move. I know I sound cold but you can't tell me that an extra £60k say in her pocket wouldn't have put her career on hold.

There were no official tickets for the Liverpool game as they were rebuilding that end. A mate of mine from Northampton had sorted out half a dozen tickets for their end so I drove up to his house and then we headed off for Liverpool before turning back about Stoke. We went back to a club in a village near Northampton for a few pints and I was told how before she was married Diana and her posh mates used to slum it around the villages picking up rough. This was confirmed by one lad whose brother had been there. Do you think I should send this in as a suggested eulogy? To quote Paul Heaton - "Diana liked to protest about landmines - why didn't she stand outside the british factories where they were made - oh, sorry no photogenic brown babies to hold". As you can tell I'm not exactly a royallist.

Just thinking what the change of regime means - I remember last year sitting up till midnight screaming "we have to sign some fucker" at SSN. This year presuming the two sign we can relax for once. (Though I hope Deco shite is true just for a laugh)

I never got why Christians considered the Jews to be "Christ killers" apart from an excuse for hatred when the whole premise is that he was sent to die - surely the whos and the hows shouldn't matter. I think the Catholic Chuech only lifted the "warrant" against the Jews post WWII - the "crime" was a big thing in the Nazi propaganda.

I think Fish's post probably illustrates two sides of the argument - if muslims and jews both suddenly stopped believing then they'd still have issues. However I'd argue that the forming of the "gangs" in the first place is the root cause that religion feeds on and off. Iread a riposte to the classic anti-atheist argument about Stalin a little while ago that alluded to totalatarian communism and religion being like smallpox and cancer - both are killers but just because we eradicate one doesn't mean we should tolerate the other. I'd add tribalism and nationalism to the list of diseases.

How did he cancel it? He wasn't even allowed to ref a Boro game. He was the ref consulted by the ""Safety committee"

Winter should have been charged with corruption for his part in Snowgate. Notice how all the offended have a grudge againt us?

Un-doubtedly but I'd still like to see a few things go just to confirm that - the blasphemy laws for example (I know 1922 or something since successfully used but they sill exist).

The rights and protection religion has in this country comes from a time when the majority basically had to adhere - hence the establishment of the unwritten constitution itself. I'd loved to think that post-enlightenment, what I would call abhorrent hangovers are left as a sop to the poor little theists almost out of sympathy but the truth is the opposite. I just wish people were more honest when it came to the census - I know evetyone doesn't have to feel the same way as me or Renton but I wish the people who see religion as a Weddings/christenings/funerals deal wouldn't tick the Christian box. If we got a true picture of faiths then at least we could refer to them as the minority and for example don't give them concessions to hate gays or reject anything else the majority want. We've never had an unwritten constitution for the record, it's always been 'written' in one way or another, it's just that it was never codeified or consolidated until the Human Rights Act. Not that we ever really had rights as such either. Liberties would be the correct term....ie whatever the law didnt say you couldnt do, you could do. We never actually had the right to do anything until 1998. OMG!!!11! The sad thing is my limited knowledge which I used to refer to it as that comes from seeing St John Stevas describe it as that on several occasions. I bow to your superior knowledge (on this and this alone )

The rights and protection religion has in this country comes from a time when the majority basically had to adhere - hence the establishment of the unwritten constitution itself. I'd loved to think that post-enlightenment, what I would call abhorrent hangovers are left as a sop to the poor little theists almost out of sympathy but the truth is the opposite. I just wish people were more honest when it came to the census - I know evetyone doesn't have to feel the same way as me or Renton but I wish the people who see religion as a Weddings/christenings/funerals deal wouldn't tick the Christian box. If we got a true picture of faiths then at least we could refer to them as the minority and for example don't give them concessions to hate gays or reject anything else the majority want.

It looks like the cow isn't going to let it lie as theres another article today suggesting action. Thats all fair enough as long as the next time she writes about "fat geordies" everybody complains and also if the FA take action then every ground and club is treated he same. I say this because you can guaranteed Mido is going to have to get used to this treatment for a while at least. I'll also add that if the FA look at the tape properly then they'll expose Mido's "I only told them to shush" lie.

Ravanelli? Emerson? Juninho?

Yeah I can go for the whole "lets stone people for wearing mixed fibre clothes" angle as well.

To be honest when I espouse mockery I would much rather have a good argument based on some kind of "facts"- I've enjoyed a couple on here with The Inspiration and Isegrim which I think (and hope) caused no deep offence. Unfortunately I do sometimes express my frustration with a "how can you be so stupid" which doesn't help.

I agree but sadly millions of people are "born into it" and have no choice under penalty of death. Its people who live in "free" countries and still choose it that deserve mockery. Are you saying people who are religious should be mocked? I'm not religious as in I don't follow a particular religion but I respect those who wish to. I respect individual beliefs as long as they remain private but despise organised religion and think anyone who advertises irrational nonsense should be mocked.

I agree but sadly millions of people are "born into it" and have no choice under penalty of death. Its people who live in "free" countries and still choose it that deserve mockery.

Given the fact that organized religion as a whole cannot accept criticism in any way, shape or form and cannot exchange views on any critical basis, mockery is the only thing rational people have left.

I think she's completely misread the chants and shown her own prejudices at the same time. Being a Sky era fan she won't know that both us and the Mackems have been taking the piss out of Boro for being choild abusers for a good 20 years. As I said his name rhymes so he got the abuse. Its then interesting that she sees accusation of paedophilia as "anti-arab" and "Islamophobic" which I think hides prejudice. either that or any insult to any Muslim is now based on his religion.