NJS

I know where we both stand on religion but I found that case a couple of years ago when that woman's kid got shot (I think in Liverpool) and she said as a Christian she forgave their killers to be incredibly affecting. Maybe a lesson we could all use even if I don't think many could do so.

I don't think ytou can say that without knowing what their family life was like - as I said if it was anything like those two kids in Doncaster, I'd pity them rather than condemn them. Of course I don't accept the supernatural definition of "evil" - I've always defined it for myself as people who know what they are doing is wrong and do it anyway - say like the Krays - I don't think kids like this who have had a shitty family life would know what was right and what was wrong.

I don't mind people wanting capital punishment and enjoy arguing the case without indignation as you put it - however I stand by my comment that people who demand it for 10 year olds are twisted (though realised AP was joking).

I think the media completely let Cameron off with that and I think he should have been shot with shit for it. It marked a low I didn't even think a Tory was capable of.

Public attitude can be a problem with rehabilitation though - I remember the outcry a few years ago when they came up with that scheme of sending joyriders abroad on "Jollies" but the results were excellent in terms of re-offending compared with the usual short, sharp shock. Much like your point about spending, people don't want to know that treating people like humans can bring better results for society than treating them like scum. I'd add a proviso that I'd limit the "human" approach to first offenders.

As far as I know it worked okay with Mary Bell.

I suppose this was a test for the rehabilitaion side of things rather than the punishment one - maybe this breach shows they failed in that but we won't know until there's more details. You also have to consider mental illness in some cases - I read something in The Guardian saying Sutcliffe shouldn't get out because of his hate crimes against women but someone replied that its a question for his doctors now and not for the law in the strictest sense. Basically he shouldn't have been tried as "sane" which I think has confused the process now.

I think nearly of all of the civilised world have stopped now though so it would very hard to go back - I can't see how anywhere with the death penalty looks more civilised or has any better crime rates as a consequence. Something like 95% of murder are heat of the moment jobs - I can't see how a "deterrent" would stop that or be appropriate in many cases (though I acknowledge theres a few where I understand the appetite).

RIP - wrong leader at the wrong time but I still think he was a great man.

I like that one. I still think Glue is his best as I might have said on here before.

As for me I'm in a bit of a re-read mood - I just re-read the Richard Morgan Kovacs trilogy which is top drawer. I also read the lates Dean Koontz one which I found to be a pale shadow of his earlier novels. The premise was good but it was just too brief and shallow. In "protest" I bought one of his early novels (Strangers) which I must have read 20 years ago which I'd lost which definitely has the depth lacking in the latest (Breathless).

As Jimbo said they are different to the films (but good). You might find the novels a bit harder to follow compared with the films as they are set in the 60s/70s iirc and a lad of your age might be unfamiliar with the context of the politics etc.

I remember when Cole was sold to Man U there was a similar thing with a bloke who had a tattoo of him but my thoughts was it didn't matter if he'd left as the bloke had done the business for us. I suppose he could claim the album will always be known by that moniker anyway - still a sad twat though. Having said that loads of blokes get their lasses name which you could say is just as potentially short term.

I always thought 10 was too young to write people off but then again I couldn't imagine 10 year olds wanting to kill. However I'd compare them with the two kids in Doncaster where it was horrible parents that produced them - I don't believe in inherent evil. As for this revelation it shows what I've always thought - the police are always willing tp breach confidentiality for a few quid from a tabloid. As for wanting to hang 10 year olds - barbarism at its finest - in fact I'd consider locking people who suggest it up as they are obviously twisted.

20 years ago we were a shit team in the second division who hadn't won anything for years and had no prospect of ever winning anything. Now we are in exactly the same position (albeit with good memories) which is just as much a consequence of their actions as the rise.

It's an interesting argument to use to maybe wind people up but it should make them question the sources as well. I tend to think he did - more because of the existence of the cult that followed rather than because of any direct documentary eveidence such as the gospels.

Would it though? Would you really like "eternal" life in heaven? They've always been a bit vague on the details (understandably) so to crave a concept like that, though understandable as opposed to "70 years then you die", has always seemed strange to me.

Of course - I just find it daft that given that they then try and apply a bit of science as in the shroud - either take it at face value or don't. It's much like the creation - don't try and apply God to evolution = it doesn't fit.

I see Keith Harris has surfaced again - involved in a bid to buy Man Utd. I still think the bloke's a con man.

It's interesting how a bit of faith can make you want to believe - I remember the Turin Shroud being in the news when I was about 10 (and still believed) and someone saying the image could have been produced by a micro-second burst of radiation caused by him being reanimated - I remember thinking "that makes sense". You also get some matter of fact bollocks associated with them which you are expected to accept so easily - I remember being told how 3 crosses were found and they knew one was Christ's so they identified the right one by laying some cripple on them until of course one of them healed him. A good example of something where you'd expect more people to go "hang on...." but they don't.

Radiometric dating for something metal is not accurate enough for something as young as that to be able to say "first or second century" - wishful thinking bollocks.

According to your interpretation of them you were right. However they were not giants among men who cared about the club. They were utter, utter cunts whose only intention from day one was to screw you, me and everyone out of as much money as possible. The football was just an incidental bonus. I'm fucking sick of you talking about them in glowing terms - they were and are absolute fucking scum. And by the way that does not mean I think McKeag, Westwood or Ashley are any better - you just cannot get into your head that we've been screwed by them all.

Gallacher - McGhee didn't score till Hull. Sorry to be a pedant - I just have a good memory for good times

Gary McAllister tbh, Campbell was class too. Aitken was rated as the best player in Scotland by many for a long time, he was finished when he came here though or so it seemed, I don't think you should be finished at 30 however. See Liverpool they always seemed to get lucky with Scots in the late 70s and 80s, they got Hansen, Gillespie and Dalglish, while we got Robertson, Sweeney and Roy The Bear as he was known. Funny that seeing as Rangers refer to themselves as the bears too. another young scot we got at that time was John Gallacher who looked like he was going to be a player before his injuries. I have a vague memory of going to Reading and John gallagher scoring an own goal from the halfway line. Mind in this memory I have Gullit playing or on the bench FA cup last minute equaliser - the back pass was intercepted I think - won some bloke a couple of million on the pools - we won the replay 4-0 Gullit played in a pre-season friendly there.

I know its sad but I've always considered the "sly" walk back to the station/car among home fans when we've beaten their team and hearing the moans to be one of the best things about being a football fan.