NJS

Literally everyone I've spoke to who is voting for the Tories has given me an answer about immigrants and that's it. I don't think the majority of people are aware of what they're like. I've just about resigned myself to them winning now but have two reasons to be positive - King's opinion on how much shit is going to hit the fan and a whole new generation of selfish twats are going to be reminded what the Tories are.

As I understand it the club owes the money to the company he setup to buy the club - two separate entities. CT has it wrong imo - if he was going to "write off" the loan he would have converted it to equity with no value which is what Abramovitch did - keeping it as a loan suggests intended repayment.

Funny thing is I was just saying to someone the other week how I didn't know what their plan was going to be as there were no major industries in the NE left they could destroy - then he came out with his "too much public sector" and I thought "Ah".

Don't know what they mean by tools to maintain discipline but there will be challanges to any and all of those in 2 minutes flat.

I've always been for the concepts of the EU because I feel in the next few years we need to be in an entity that big to compete with China and India as well as the "old" powers. I think an individual country would be too overshadowed. I've also always thought the idea of a larger community with similar people (fuck off Parky) to be beneficial from a social point of view and I'f like to see the ties and exchanges between countries expanded.

Well the majority of the country backed the tories for 3 long terms, even after the miners strike. Bastard this democracy lark for the dyed in the wool socialists. They never got 50% in a General Election, did they? Or hardly any support in the North, Scotland, or Wales. This is why I'm a supporter of regional government - it seems to have worked out okay for the Scots an the Welsh and I can't understand why people in the NE rejected it so out of hand. There was a lot of lies about an extra tier when it was actually a replacement level with more powers but still. Of course the converse to the Tories not caring about the regions is Labour taking them for granted which I accept to a degree but I think having a body of people specifically interested in the region beyond the NEDC would work.

Again, unemployment among immigrants is less than in the general populace. The only reason EU immigrants come here is to work - the only way non-EU immigrants can come here is if they have a job.

Look at the people not the manifesto. They are all black hearted evil bastards and always will be. Deliberately playing devil's advocate but Renton is saying exactly the opposite... judge on policy, not personality. I agree - but at the same time policies are about contexts - historically the Tories have always put the rich first so anything that goes against that is untrustworthy in my view - like their plans to regulate banking - I just don't believe they would do it. That doesn't mean I think Labour don't have the same contexts btw.

Shares aside, a lot of the bailout loans given to banks were at 11% - an extremely nice little earner. A lot of the figures being banded about are like when football spending is discussed - "Keegan spent 100m" sounds good but it doesn't mention he took in 60m so actually only spent 40m (a price worth paying imo) and this is the same - the balance sheet in 5 years time will look a lot different to how it is now. I'd also point out on Phil's point about the Tory 6m cut - that's a sop to say they are doing something NOW - the Labour view is that the inevitible cuts should be delayed while the economy is still fragile.

Look at the people not the manifesto. They are all black hearted evil bastards and always will be. I don't care if that sounds irrational - I have a shit load of evidence from history. (I'd also point out that NR have paid back nearly all the money)

Hasn't got that good a record at getting his message through then has he? If his messages have prevented some disasters but not others then you have to explain the difference - and that's when it gets tricky - does hw only look after Christians? If so why have so many died in disasters - were they not worthy?

The problem for me is that if the Tories win and the economy "naturally" recovers then they'll live on the kudos for another 2 or 3 terms which will give them time to do real, Thatcher style damage to the country. I do think Brown overstated his good management after effectively taking over an economy in decent shape in 97 so I think the broad alignment of the 2 parties on the economy won't make that much difference - but I think theres a huge difference in how they'll shape society.

I know its "what if" but the Tories wouldn't have put the money away as Phil suggests - they would have given out tax cuts which would have fuelled even more of a housing boom here which would have made the crash sooner/deeper. Given a choice between that money having been spent on the public services or the rich, I favour the former.

It would be interesting to see the reaction to someone who was just totally honest = sort of like Alan Bas'tard combined with the Jim Carrey character in Liar Liar. "You spoilt middle class cunts", "Underclass charver scum", "Coffin dodging homphobic, racist twats" would be good ways to address crowds.

And while Brown may feel that such an argument is bigoted, it is how an awful lot of voters are feeling. To dismiss such concerns in the way he did was foolish, whether in public or private. Bigoted is probably the wrong word - in my view I'#d have no problem using the word "uninformed" or similar with a view to openong a debate.

In the cold light of day I'd agree it's a case of him having a negative view of the encounter and feeling as if he'd fucked it up which led to him get her thrust wrong. I think it illustrates that he's just not that good a people person which I don't think is a big surprise anyway.

Classic "Who's the biggest cunts?" final in store now.

He reminds me of what I was saying when we discussed Michael Foot - you could argue both men are unsuited to the modern world of politics despite what talents they may have had. Say what you like about Blair but he was a PR wizard and I think the Tories thought Cameron could "easily" be as good and are now finding out its not so easy.

If she thinks a few Poles have turned Rochdale into a third world country then I'd say a bigot is fair enough - though of course getting caught saying it is beyond stupidity.

It comes down to her saying there were too many Eastern European immigrants.

Not a bad moral in context but as I said that ignores the genocide angle of the tale. It's like the tale of Abraham being asked to sacrifice his son - you can say it shows that faith is rewarded and that God is loving for sparing the son but at the same time it's fuck off mental cruelty to even ask it of someone even knowing you're going to let them off - again not exactly a "good" God. I realise that there is a dichotomy between the God of the OT who should be feared and the NT /Koran who should be loved but that's some level of schizoprenia to get over.

I don't mind contemplating a Deist God who may have created the universe - though I doubt he exists - but that concept does not relate in anyway to man made Gods like Yahweh. How can you doubt something exists if you have no data to go on? Surely that is as much a belief systim? Yes? As you were. Theres no positive evidence which is where the requirement lies. I just said I don't mind contemplating before dismissing it - unlike the Theist Gods which aren't even worth that much effort.

I don't mind contemplating a Deist God who may have created the universe - though I doubt he exists - but that concept does not relate in anyway to man made Gods like Yahweh.

Europe being nowhere near where the story is set. The story it was stolen from (Gilgamesh) supposedly was based on the inundation that formed the black seas but that was way before 4000 BC.

One of the things in Dogma I love is the idea that God visits anonymously to do things he likes.