NJS

Technically Otis - end product wise which is what counts imo - Liam.

I'm a huge fan of U2 Stevie but I still recognise that taste is personal not absolute - you can't impose it on the masses. Generic/casual fans like what's popular/trendy - as of 2011 that's Kings of Leon.

So the likes of a toon fan like me and one like yee, is that what you're saying? Eh? No - I mean there were people there who saw those bands as going to that summers cool event rather than busting a gut to see them on their own merits. For the U2 one, Genesis had played there the week before and I assumed that there were quite a few people who'd gone there as well though I can imagine fewer people would like both bands. If you want it football terms I'd say what I'd call more casual fans would be ones who go to Blackburn or Wigan or a big cup game but wouldn't dream of going to Oxford on a Wednesday night. If you meant the wankers part then its a sad fact that Oasis did attract a lot of arseholes.

There's something in what Gemmill says - people who only have a casual interest in music by which I mean rarely go to gigs and buy maybe a dozen albums a year would tend to have Oasis or U2 as their token "rock" box ticker - they do have a mass casual appeal as well a having fans who take them more seriously. I went to Elland Road to see U2 in 87 and there were loads of that kind of casual fan there and it was the same when I last went to see Oasis at Finsbury park (though the latter did have far too many laddidh wankers as well). On Kings of Leon I found there early stuff canny but a bit too weird for me - I prefer some of their more recent stuff but wouldn't cal myself a fan.

It didn't end well btw, if you want a potted version. You could argue it only went tits up economically when they ran out of oil which was about 42 iirc.

I do respect that very human notion - I think as I said earlier the debate has shifted in the last couple of decades as the issue has affected more people (whose wealth is mainly property inflation based). Maybe its a question of number of generations = the true upper class have been passing it on for centuries with probably dubious initial acquistion so I'd have less problem "having a go" at them rather than someone from a council house whose made it good leaving it all to his kids.

I think I've said a couple of times that I recognise my personal "hypocrisy" - before working in banking, I worked in the IFA industry which I have even more contempt for. I don't really feel too guilty about it - I like having a decent lifestyle too much. Alex is also right - I do hate everybody, but that's not job related - and also I guess in contrast to being a socialist but I'd argue that's more about people as a whole rather than individuals.

You can't stop people being wankers but you can stop them from being rewarded for it. My view is that if you define or try to define a society as a meritiocracy then measures to at least try and level the playing field are reasonable. Of course that playing field has other factors like private education but I'd address that as well. I wouldn't take shit food off someone in your example but I'd consider discouraging its sale - I'm all for personal freedom up to a point but I think what that point is is debateable.

I'm not in favour of high taxation for the sake of it - that's why I think inheritance is an opportunity to introduce a moral aspect so that money you "earn" on your own merits is treated with more "respect" than that which is unearned. Of course I'd put a lot more effort into reducing tax avoidance.evasion as well and abolish all fiddles. Also as I've said before I don't object to people looking after their kids per se but the way some people almost rely/look forward to their parents death from a monetary view is horrible.

as they do to tell us what we can eat, drink, play and smoke. can't get my head around that philosophy tbh and do we bollocks choose our government. opt for 2 sides of the same coin and you'll take what you're given and be happy with! It's a concept of shared responsibilities - if you want a society with an ifrastructure you benefit from, then you have to have some kind of organisation which includes taxation and lifestyle guidance - what you eat/drink/smoke affects the NHS which is shared. You could only take an opt out so far - if you completely funded your own healthcare, you'd still need things like transport systems and emergency systems for example.

I dreamt I was involved in some kind of body swap thing and was playing for Arsenal against Barcelona but got lost in the stadium trying to find the pitch - then I was trying to convince people I was "me" (like that bit in Big where he has to convince his mate its him).

The problem now is that because of property prices, that passed on wealth and priviledge (and sense of entitlement) has been extended to a lot more people. In principle the fact that more people have "wealth" is fine, but what that does for equality of opportunity is a very high price imo.

Only 10% earn 45k plus. Not saying you're wrong in broad terms but a shit load of people would fall into your bracket and those with kids etc I'd say weren't exactly well off. I mentioned budgeting in the VAT thread and not really having to budget to a great degree isn't a bad definition of being middle class based on income imo.

Upbringing for the most part and how comfortable you are with the definition. I still consider myself working class despite a decent level of material wealth - I think if I had kids though they'd probably be middle class - I think that's common. I remember someone I used to hang around with as a kid saying his ambition was "to be middle class by the time I'm 30" - unsurprisingly he was a fucking wanker.

Comedians: That mention of Sid James dying on stage in Sunderland made me think that I saw Jasper Carrot at the same theatre (The Empire) in 82 just after The Stiones played SJP and I remember him getting all the Mackems laughing at there being 36k there - of course that was just before KK signed and the next crowd was QPR Only other comedian I've seen live was Chubbby Brown years ago just when he was starting to be famous - he played a bar in Shields I've forgotten the name of. Music: Up until about 5 years ago I used to go to a couple of gigs a month plus 2 festivals - now go to about 4 or 5 a year - last was Ash, next is the Manics in a couple weeks.

Ruined it for me - I just didn't imagine Lestat like that - should have gone for Rutger Hauer.

Dogma - good mixture of comedy, emotion, tastelessness, blasphemy and thought provocation Blade Runner - characters, style and intelligence. Grosse Point Blank - black humour and excellent story.

As I've said before, getting people out of the lack of work ethic trap is the biggest task there is imo - whether there are jobs available or not. However, conversely I'd say that a lot of the middle/upper class have an expected "entitlement" to the good things in life which is much more odious.

I think if people have to sit down and plan at a minute level what they are going to spend their money on and that spend only covers essentials with maybe a few very rare luxuries then I'd class that as being poor (in relative terms) and I think that covers millions.

There was an article in The Guardian (where else) a few months ago which suggested a one off tax of I think 20% of all wealth on anyone who has more than a million (non-property I think) which would raise something like £120bn. No chance of course but a decent suggestion.

My Dad always told me this - he reckoned he was the classic "plays for a London team" type of star.

It's well known that indirect taxation affects the poor dispropotionately which is obviously why Tories like it so much - they can use spurious shit like "well maybe you shouldbn't be buying a plasma TV if you're that poor" which disregards both the direct increase in expenditure on things I mentioned as well as the passed on price rises due to increased costs.

Cars, train fares, Petrol, heating, beer, DVDs, CDs, clothes, electronics including phones, household items like fridges etc. No, nowt there obviously.

It is a strange phenomenom that the no mans lands of Boldon, Cleadon and Whitburn are all pretty posh which has probably segragated the accents in some kind of evolutionary way.

Had a bad car crash before he could make his mark iirc.