NJS

People getting upset about a few pretty weak barbs thrown shows what the problem is. The bollocks is still too ingrained in the human race, even in those who've woken up but are still to nice to stand up to it. I'm as guilty as anyone about biting my tongue which sadly shows we aren't as free as we'd like to think we are. I read that Keith Vaz has been quoted today saying he'd have no problem with a new blasphemy law - that's how fucked up we've become because of this shit. One step forward ten steps back.

I agree religion is just another form of tribalism but to a large degree the other "classics" like so called race and nationality are slightly on the wane as most people wake up to the fact they don't really define us as apart from other humans. Unfortunately religion holds such a sway on so many people that it's harder to blur in the same way. Sometimes I admire how well the human race has invented ways to fuck ourselves over.

When I was looking for that one I also found a one which globally asked Muslims whether they supported sharia as the legitimate law of the land and also whether they support the death penalty for apostasy. It doesn't include the UK but the figures are terrifying. Something like 60% of Egyptians think execution is the correct sentence for simply choosing not to be Muslim. Dismissing that level of indoctrinated moral blindness is mental.

Both those things involved the tribalism of religion though PL.

http://www.comres.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/BBC-Today-Programme_British-Muslims-Poll_FINAL-Tables_Feb2015.pdf Bastard - beaten to by the stats bot

27% of UK Muslims felt "some sympathy" with the motives behind the Hebdo attacks. 11% said that any magazine which depicts the prophet deserves to be attacked. Those percentages of 2m people are quite scary.

They actually have the kind of surveillance laws that the Tories now want - did them a lot of good didn't it?

The thing is Islam is a political cult as well as a religious one - the belief in a global caliphate under sharia law means that any "attack" on that notion, be it cartoons or interference in the ME provoke the same response underpinned by the allegiance to a "tribe" based on one thing - genuine, sincere belief in the teaching of one man. Thw west acting like cunts is a given imo and admittedley as you say its not going to stop but saying that's the main driving force is nonsense. If all western interference in Syria ended tomorrow and ISIS was victorious and somehow formed a sizeable caliphate do you think they would stop expanding for one second? They cannot as their doctrine requires them to keep going.

Ben Goldacre is probably the closest

A good dose of rebellion regarding laws is fine (especially regarding personal responsibility ones like drugs or sexuality) - expressing sympathy with the Charlie Hebdo killers and calling for blasphemy or apostasy to be crimes punishable by extreme sentences is not imo because they impose them on others.

The bloke is as quick to be an apologit for religion as I am to criticise it. I don't mean he holds belief but he's alway been quick to object to any bad-mouthing - for example when there was criticsm of Patrick Muamba thanking God for saving him when it was a doctor and science.

Persecution is a strong word. Of course I don't support attacks on Muslims or "rounding them up" or anything like that but I feel okay about questioning British Muslims' attitudes given certain poll results on these matters. I think Cameron's talk of British values is bollocks but when so many people say they hold their religious laws above state ones it's fair enough to object.

There are a lot on the liberal left who've never really accepted the way the Internet has allowed widespread criticism of religion in general to become do accepted. This is why Dawkins is so despised for daring to point out how ridiculous the whole thing is because it jars a lot of people's in-built idea of respect for belief. I think this was tolerated to a point when the target was mainly Christianity but when it comes to Islam it becomes easy to conflate it with perceived dislike of Arabs or Asians. The mental gymnastics of calling out "Islamaphobia" while keeping quiet about the homophobia, misogyny and intolerance inherent in the doctrine is breathtaking at times. I find it similar how any criticism of Israel for being cunts instantly brings cries of anti-Semitism. Of course there are people for whom the accusations on either matter are true but the way it's used an attempt to quell any questions is sickening IMO.

My point was that declaring the US to be the bid bad is well and good and I agree with you on that but then denying the driving force of the other side is a liberal blindspot. They aren't extremist Muslims - they're actually true to their faith. Sensible Muslims tend to be so despite their faith not because of it - a maxim I apply to all religions.

Have white Christian boys been inspired by their faith to travel thousands of miles to fight for the US?

You missed out Islam itself which proves Renton's point.

The vast majority of those killed in Iraq were as a result of Muslim vs Muslim conflict. I despise Blair and the neoconservatives' idiot lackey (Bush) but saying they killed a million is bollocks. They kicked over a basket of snakes that Saddam had kept the lid on which was wrong but it needed religious tribalism to set the place on fire. All of the countries which are majority Islam or theocracies are fucked up whether they've been fucked over by the west or not (see Indonesia or Somalia as examples of the latter). Ignoring this commonality is blindness.

It would be funny if it turns out he is that stupid. Though if that isn't the case it makes him an even bigger cunt.

Never watched more than 5 seconds of Downton Abbey but it strikes me as a celebration of feudalism.

I tried to read Catch 22 years ago and gave up but I'm not a big "classics" reader. I've also tried to read Vonnegut and Philip Dick in the past and failed as well. I think it's partly due to being forced to read stuff in school I disliked and maybe a bit of emperors new clothes from my pov.

They admitted it's been happening since 1984. All this bill does is put a token legal framework around it.

All Snowden did for me was confirm what I'd always suspected. I was a bit surprised how brazen they were but that's it.

I saw an interview with him once where he claimed he gave up rock after meeting Frank Sinatra who didn't have a clue who he was. I'd have been surprised if he had known.

I finished Continuum over the weekend and have now restarted Breaking Bad - I like what I've seen so far (5 episodes) but it'll have to get better to live up to its reputation.

Thank fuck for that - thought he was deed. Never seen him live - queued up for tickets in 79 but didn't get them (day we beat QPR 4-2 when Peter Withe grabbed a dog).