NJS

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/14/labour-meltdown-decades-govern-votes Slags off Blair and Corbyn and I agree with a lot of both sides - I still think Renton's description of Blair "transforming the country" is overstated but the point about not doing enough for the heartlands and taking them for granted is spot on.

I agree up.to a point nut why does it have to be centrist to win? Against Major, Blair had to be just a bit different to capitalise on the sense that the tories had been in too long. Now we have a tory party that's moved some distance to the right and a centre vote that's collapsed. I honestly think your brand of unambitious centrism will not be enough to do any good. I've read a few things about the visceral hatred of Corbyn among older voters which I understand and accept. Given the radicalism of the younger army of members I don't see why a better leader with a more realistic but still ambitious agenda can't do well. I'd also point out that while disastrous in seat terms, from a numerical and share pov there have been worse so to abandon all hope is premature.

2017 has a lot to answer for - if Thursday had happened then we could have moved on.

Heard a couple of people at work saying the majority means Johnson can be his real self now and ditch the right wingers. Naivety rules.

Exactly the same shite Trump came out with when he won. That worked well.

What do you think Corbyn's "early next year" means? I reckon March the 31st.

Upbringing and a conscience is a bastard sometimes.

Read something suggesting Labour will need a Kinnock to prepare the way for a Blair - place on the spectrum aside, that sort of makes sense. I'm old enough to remember 83 and 87 - I think we just need a little faith that a recovery is possible - death knells considering the number of votes cast are a bit premature and I don't think there's an overwhelming desire for total centrism.

Electoral system is bullshit like - Labour got 800k more votes than 2005 - it's the spread/location/turnout that matters.

In 2017 as both parties were both basically leave, other issues were discussed. This time it looks like it was all brexit where it mattered.

The only strong position on Brexit that would have made a difference is going full leave.

For all the slagging off of Cameron he's won - he's killed ukip and given the tories at least another 5 years, probably more of power. Knighthood probably beckons.

Looks like going full remain wouldn't have helped as it's the leavers who voted tory.

Or vice versa.

My gut instinct is still a 20-25 majority. There's a load of ridiculous place like grimsby and Bishop Auckland going to go tory to offset the likes of Putney. Hasn't the cunt made sure all of the candidates are his lickspittels?

Gloom, do you think if Corbyn goes and there is a transparent disciplinary system in place that this could be put behind Labour or are they fucked for a while on this?

I've overheard two Jewish people at work using the phrase "I'm scared of what he might do". I know their history gives them the right to be cautious but fucking hell.

I was there for opening time but there were two blokes in front of me - both commuters so my vote was probably wiped out before it was cast.

Like when she tweeted that punch shite yesterday at the cunts' behest? ?

Even if he could, he'd lose his away points and have no opportunity to start his points again. The offer is still shite overall though.

The phone thing should be his "what a bigoted woman" moment but it won't be as the media will gloss over it.

As I've said before, Cooper seems what you say but her entire leadership pitch in 2015 seemed to be built on reviving Surestart. It would be interesting to see how she'd do now knowing there's an appetite for more among the membership.

Narrowly beaten by "Ponteland airport* for me.

I think the influence of printed media is waning though - I don't see that many undecideds choosing to buy the mail or telegraph.

Might be harsh but I'd make useful subjects free and leave fees for indulgent ones.