Park Life

How about we won't buy anybody and sell a couple of defenders?

Seriously? who the fuck authorised sending out that kind of shit to everyone? luckily I didnt get it like. I tend to delete these now.

That's sometimes the problem with instilling "democracy" in places where it doesn't really fit - people just revert to old tribal or religious allegiances (see Iraq or half of Africa ) or they vote for candidates foisted on them because they have no real choice. I remember Ortega losing elections in Nicaragua because the CIA put up a candidate and basically told the people that if he wasn't elected the US would bully the world into destroying their economy. The Taliban angle is also an indication of how practicality triumphs over principle in foreign policy - odious regimes are left untouched as long as there's business to be done while relatively harmless countries like Cuba are made into pariahs. I think everyone generally accepts that but imo it is made worse when people like Bush or Blair add some kind of moral crusade element to their actions. Basically if Saddam had played ball, nobody would have cared how many Kurds he gassed. Aye, Saddam only became a 'problem' when he invaded Kuwait. When he was fighting Iran he was one of the good guys. Regarding democracy, another thing about installing it is that it cannot be done overnight. I caught a bit of Simon Schama's programme about Obama's America last night and he compared the wars in Vietnam (obvious US failure) and Korea (which he considered at least a partial US success based on the wealth, freedom and democracy in South Korea now). What he omitted though (unless I missed that bit) was the length of time it took for South Korea to achieve anything like the democratic process they now have in place. The war there ended in the early 1950s but the country was still a military dictatorship until just before they held the Olympics in Seoul over 30 years later. Obviously every country is different but you'd have to think that the conditions for a stable, democratic process taking place in countries like Iraq and Afghanistan are light years away when you consider all the problems. I think Iraq will be divided up. The backstory here of course is that the West is running out of oil that is cheap to access and transport. All this stuff about Siberia, Antartica et all is all pipedreams as that oil is about as fiddly and expensive to drill and transport as mining for gold on the moon. The era of oil is about to end. All across the board they are lying about reserves.....Even the Saudi's have starting to drill at sea...!!

That's sometimes the problem with instilling "democracy" in places where it doesn't really fit - people just revert to old tribal or religious allegiances (see Iraq or half of Africa ) or they vote for candidates foisted on them because they have no real choice. I remember Ortega losing elections in Nicaragua because the CIA put up a candidate and basically told the people that if he wasn't elected the US would bully the world into destroying their economy. The Taliban angle is also an indication of how practicality triumphs over principle in foreign policy - odious regimes are left untouched as long as there's business to be done while relatively harmless countries like Cuba are made into pariahs. I think everyone generally accepts that but imo it is made worse when people like Bush or Blair add some kind of moral crusade element to their actions. Basically if Saddam had played ball, nobody would have cared how many Kurds he gassed. More or less sadly. I remember when he started saying Q8 was nicking their oil by drilling at an angle, Madleline Albright didn't really seem that bothered even when he amassed the tanks. iirc meetings took place and he must have had an indication that it was alright to go in and teach the Q8eees a lesson. What did for him was the Saudi's panicking and making up stories that the tanks were coming their way and that their fields would be in danger (could have easily been checked by satellite). In that period Saddam made other mistakes (buying Russian arms and talking about selling oil in Euro's). Iraq always has really been 3 countries (peoples) cobbled together with poor access to the sea (old imperealist trick) and Saddam had to rule with a rod of iron to hold it together as we know see it is almost impossible once the factions start getting ideas. I was quite surprised the U.S. toppled him and took on what is effectively a war that will go on forever and is instrinsically unwinnable economically or militarily. What we are dealing with now is the legacy of the hawks in the Whitehouse at a time when they tried to tear up the rule book that had been in place since Korea and Vietnam. On the upside these two wars plus the carnage of the financial markets should limit American meddling elsewhere.

Do you mean like representitives of the Taliban being sat in the offices of Haliburton in 2000 negotiating with Dick Cheney about an oil pipeline to be run across Afghanistan from the oil rich southern Russian republics to the north and failing to reach a deal? That's the sort of thing.

We will buy nobody in Jan.

It's naive in the extreme to believe we are invested in some kind of world policeman malarkey. These are key strategical theatres of engagement that involve Govt/multinationals/resources.

Never underestimate evil/greed.

Having an ongoing presence in Afg is a way of ensuring a future oil pipeline from the Caucases or somehere and as other have mentioned a good base for attacks.surveillance into Iran etc..The funny thing is that the west has continuously changed sides vis a vie Taliban/Northern Alliance/Kabul govt etc..It's basically a tribal/rural economy (heroin etc) and they like it that way. We are never going to win over large sections and gettting out would mean saving soldiers lives.

It would go back to being the same third world heroin farm with no effect on anyone it was before the Yanks, Russians and firstly the British fucked it up. Training camps were a problem.

We've pulled out of Iraq haven't we? I.e. the UK. Meant Afghanistan.

People do realise we're mostly fighting the Iraqi's to bring them "democracy".

The Carlyle Group is so proficient at raking in government contracts that it is often referred to as the "Ex-Presidents Club." Some of the West's biggest and most powerful political leaders are helping to guide Carlyle through the muddy waters of governmental red tape and are reaping huge benefits in the process. Carlyle's movers and shakers include such heavyweights as Former Secretary of State James Baker, Ex-Secretary of Defense Frank Carlucci, Former President George H.W. Bush, and Former British Prime Minister John Major. President G.W. Bush has also held board membership. What is even more fascinating is that the bin Laden family was an investor in Carlyle. Carlyle also has direct links to the Saudi royal family and has been directly involved in training Saudi troops to protect oil fields. It also helped build Saudi Arabia's national guard from 26,000 to over 70,000 troops. The link between Carlyle and Saudi Arabia is so strong that some have called Carlyle a "front" organization for the Saudi royal family. Since the September 11 terrorist attacks, the Carlyle Group has reaped millions of dollars from government contracts on things such as cleaning up anthrax-infected buildings, including the Hart Senate Office Building, making X-ray scanners, providing logistics support to the U.S. military, making metal-bond structures in fighter jets and missiles, and providing employee background checks for the government. Another well-connected company that is greatly profiting from the Iraq War is Halliburton, a company formerly headed by Vice President Dick Cheney. A Halliburton subsidiary, Kellogg, Brown and Root, just received a government contract to extinguish oil well fires in Iraq. According to Forbes Magazine, no other company was even allowed to bid on the contract. This contract alone is worth tens of millions of dollars."

Or if he's a double agent.

Highly trained in running backwards? Had him in their sights twice but lunch intervened, more like. Source for that claim anyway Anth. Is the 2hr lunch break still prevalent in the land of Cheese Eating Surrender Monkeys? I'd heard somewhere that there were attempts at cutting it back. When I did a short spell in an office in Antibes, the French blokes would dissapear at about 12.30 and come back at 2.30/2.45....Unreal.

Double irony bypass. You want us to ignore the rights of muslims....because they ignore the rights of others...because they're barbaric....while we're enlightened....and we respect the rights of others. Your views are so flawed as to be a worse threat to personal freedom and liberty than those you claim to abhor. Really ? Do you support the demonstrations against British troops on the streets of Britain ie in Wootton Basset for instance ? What "rights" are you talking about here. Those fuckers are a disgrace. If they feel so strongly about the countries where our troops are based then they can fuck off there and fight them....in a fair war too with uniforms and show themselves. Cowardly cunts. I don't know enough about the protests to say if i support it or not. A quick glance at a report tells me they're protesting British presence in Afghanistan and not "British Troops" so it's clear you don't know enough to say why you're against it either. I 100% support their right to protest though. Because I treasure the right to free speech in this country. If you don't, then why don't you move to Pakistan where they don't tolerate such things. because I'm English, not pakistani. anti-British troop demonstrations not welcome on British soil. Sorry, but you are wrong. If you want to live in a country, abide by its laws and don't demonstrate for changing them, or fuck off. Your original post was about restricting the rights of muslims (very generally) because they don't deserve the same rights we enjoy...whereby we treat everyone fairly and equally. When I pointed out the glaring contradiction in that you completely changed the subject to whether or not I agree with a specific protest you personally disagree with. You recommended that the British Muslims involved move to Afghanistan and take up arms against their own government and it's armed forces. So you're using this forum in order to call muslims to Jihad because you're uncomfortable with their peaceful form of protest. Which I find incredible. Is that serious or are you joking? In the end you've lost the plot and made a vague claim about someone breaking some unspecified law in an attempt to make some change to some law that you fail to identify. Who has broken the law? Protesting against which law? If you don't start making sense and more accurately stating your point along with the individuals/instances you're referring to then I'm not interested in getting into one of your baseless slagging matches. If you want to state the facts behind what's made you so angry and why I'd enjoy debating them with you. There's some pretty tough legislation against that. Off to Guantanamo for Ne5.

The thread title is a contradiction in terms anyway. Last time France got tough a bunch of Algerians laced them on the streets of Paris.

Is English your second language? Learn our language or fuck off. ahh, jonny boy, I see you have stepped out of this one ......... Neef in fighting mood.

This is why known terrorists (big league) had safe heaven in London for ages (till 7/7). It was known internally by the security services as 'The Covenanat'. safe Jannah? Better than haven apparently...

This is why known terrorists (big league) had safe heaven in London for ages (till 7/7). It was known internally by the security services as 'The Covenanat'.

Self awareness is the first step to enlightenment LM. Have a smooth journey. I've lived an "enlightened" life mate, not brainwashed by left wing do gooder schoolies. Thanks anyway. Peace be upon you. Allah U Akbar

He had dialysis at the French hospital and a couple of times in Pakistan, he was actually visited by CIA in the French hospital. It is known that between Bush and Clinton there have been about 5 chances to kill or capture him, yet the final order never came down. He was actually surrounded in Kandahar and locked on by a drone yet the order to strike never came. Strange stuff.

Was killed in the Tora Bora high intensity air strikes or shortly thereafter.

He's always abroad during transfer window time.