Christmas Tree

It's amazing two people of the same species can disagree so much. It was awful man. I can only put that down to your youth, ignorance and general lack of life experiences. I'm sure in a few years when you start shaving, have a child or two, a few jobs, a few houses, live through a few recessions, you will eventually see the world is a big complex place with lots of different opinions. You will probably also see that sometimes the torys are good for the uk and sometimes labour.

Mandys finished.

Camerons speech.... Quite simply brilliant. He is the man, the stability the change. Simply brilliant.

Brown to speak soon. If he goes, will that mean to non elected prime ministers in a row? Wish I was at home with the TV on.

Phil, where have you been? All labour politicians have been going on about for the last 12 hours is how theyare now in favour of PR!!! Clinging to the piggy trough.

I remember after 83 and 87 there was a real sense that Labour could never win a majority again and they started to discuss PR with the obvious problem that it needs the winners to actually consider it first. I think since then because they've won power they've rediscovered faith in the current system and being honest I think the last few elections at least have produced results which reflected the mood of the country (with a few niggles). This one for example shows an appetite for something new but not enough of that to produce a Tory government. The result is the result tho and is probably right. The lib dems havent really changed, people in England are sick of Labour but the tories still have too much bad will to be fully trusted.

If you really believe that you should support the Lib Dems. Sounds like wooly bullshit to me like, but that's not to say we couldn't develop some form of PR that works well, other countries manage it. PR has many benefits. Every vote counts so parliament actually reflects public opinion, for as long as I can remember we’ve been governed by a party the majority of the country didn’t vote for. Under FPTP the views of people who live in marginal seats carry a grossly disproportionate weight, which is wrong whichever way you look at it. PR would also protects us from obviously bad or extreme policy getting pushed through parliament, and it provides a proper mechanism for getting on with things when the national vote is split three ways like we have now. Well said. However it must have many down sides since no-one Labour or Tory have brought it in. I'll have to find a nice unbiassed source to read up on it. Election historian on the BBC just saying he's against it. Suggested you need this kind of result twice in a row to say it's failed...which has never happened. Also leads to a lot of smaller parties with more MPs causing congestion in the commons. My knowledge on it which is very limited, just thinks it would give us more situations like this where politicians get the final say of the make up of the government. I would also hate it lead to a situation where one party or one lib lab pact is always in power. I hate the fact that in South Tyneside we always have a Labour council. Bad things happen when power is one sided. (not saying a conservative council would be better, just that the councillors are more wary of their decisions if they know they can be put out of a job)

The difference between the Tories and Labour now is that what Mandelson and Brown say pretty much goes. The Tory leader however (even Thatcher found this) is much more under the control of the 1922 committee and other backroom bigwigs - it'll be they who are deciding Cameron's deal imo. Oh aye, the Tory campaign has been all about Cameron and no-one else..on the basis that the rest of them are a bunch of bumbling bastards. This is the sort of bias claptrap that gives us shit politicians. It has been a presidential style campaign from all three.

The difference between the Tories and Labour now is that what Mandelson and Brown say pretty much goes. The Tory leader however (even Thatcher found this) is much more under the control of the 1922 committee and other backroom bigwigs - it'll be they who are deciding Cameron's deal imo. Time will tell, as it always does, but I think you are all mis-judging Cameron. I think he's very principilled and have seen nothing to counter that argument. We'll see tho.

He'll be gone before supper time

Osbournes life in politics will be short lived. Of that I have no doubt. Dave's mate though isn't he? Now I know I have an anti-Tory stance, but Osbourne really doesn't install me with confidence when it comes to the economy, bit of a bumbler. With a bit of luck they'll let vincy in. Seriously, what planet are you on CT? You can really see Cameron replacing his mate Osbourne with Vince Cable in a coalition? Ain't going to happen. one where the torys are the best vote for a taxi driver says it all Precisely what does that say then.....

Lockers being topped up nicely overnight tho

If you really believe that you should support the Lib Dems. Sounds like wooly bullshit to me like, but that's not to say we couldn't develop some form of PR that works well, other countries manage it. PR has many benefits. Every vote counts so parliament actually reflects public opinion, for as long as I can remember we’ve been governed by a party the majority of the country didn’t vote for. Under FPTP the views of people who live in marginal seats carry a grossly disproportionate weight, which is wrong whichever way you look at it. PR would also protects us from obviously bad or extreme policy getting pushed through parliament, and it provides a proper mechanism for getting on with things when the national vote is split three ways like we have now. Well said. However it must have many down sides since no-one Labour or Tory have brought it in. I'll have to find a nice unbiassed source to read up on it.

Osbournes life in politics will be short lived. Of that I have no doubt. Dave's mate though isn't he? Now I know I have an anti-Tory stance, but Osbourne really doesn't install me with confidence when it comes to the economy, bit of a bumbler. With a bit of luck they'll let vincy in.

Best thing for me in this election is that the Lib Dem result has blown apart the "x factor" leaders debates fear. A round of applause to the electorate.

Osbournes life in politics will be short lived. Of that I have no doubt.

Alex, I just can't see the Cameron throwing away major principals to gain power or Clegg blackmailing the country into pr. Not sure where that leaves us though other than agreeing not to vote against the conservatives on some issues.

If you really believe that you should support the Lib Dems. Sounds like wooly bullshit to me like, but that's not to say we couldn't develop some form of PR that works well, other countries manage it. Tbf, I don't know enough about the detailled pros and cons of pr to offer an opinion, never mind a decision. What I do know is that the only party that have it as a policy is the Lib Dems and they've lost sears. I also am adamant that it shouldn't come in through the back door just to prop brown up.

Following on from Happys point. The parties are now so close in the middle ground that coalitions should now work in grown up politics. Old party lines make a lot of us seem a lot further apart politically than in reality we actually are. I suspect most on here are fairly decent, happy to do their bit, believe in fairness and want good public services and a decent society for our families to live in. It's the old part lines that focus's our attention on the differences, rather than what we agree on. New politics, bring it on.

That's my take on it as well SLP. Tactical blunder imo, and will not advance the cause of PR. I think it would also paralyse the country as I doubt Cameron could get anything through Parliament. Christ, what a mess. I voted Lib Dem and it wouldn't make me livid, I prefer to see democracy in action....the Tories have won most votes....it's their government to form. Fucking sick of party political games where MPs serve their own interests and ignore the voters. I agree with your last statement. A lib con pact might not be a bad thing. It depends if they can put the country and current situation first. In order of integrity I would stick clegg up their with cameron so hopefully this gesture is genuine. If he's just trying to curry favour with the electorate, I hope Cameron tells him to fuck off

Nick Clegg offers Tories first crack

I think Thatcher is the most evil woman in history but I had no great personal problem with Hague, Duncan Smith or Howard (apart from them being Tories obviously). However Cameron has really triggered a base hatred switch which has nothing to do with him having the best chance of winning for a while. See I just don't see it with Cameron. I've seen many a Tory (and labour) mp that makes your skin crawl but Cameron I think is villified more for his background and upbringing than his political views. Having watched all sorts of politicians over the years I find him quite genuine in his beliefs. It will be interesting over the coming days to see which politicians are more desperate to be in power than keep their principals. Allready it seems every labour mp is on the TV shoring themselves to the lib dems. Going to be a very interesting few days. Apparrently cleggs making a speech at 10.30

does anyone know what happened to the tory vote in south tyneside.....(just out of interest).

How the Tories let this man get away is a mystery

Lib Lab coalition wouldn't be big enough though. You should be gutted by last night. Given all the factors against Labour, the poor Lib Dem showing, and the media influence the tories have had in a bankrolled tory campaign, they've been unable to even get a majority. Cameron should resign imo. First of all, we should all be gutted because chaos will now rule regardless. The Sky political bloke saying how Labour got less votes this time than they did under Kinnock yet could still form a government. Think it all points to a quick change in the voting system. That would be a change the Conservative party alone has flatly rejected then? How ironic. You must admit this was a piss poor performance from the tories, given the circumstances. People don't like your man Cameron I'm afraid. I disagree, the truth is people dont like Thatcher. How utterly patronising of you CT. People don't like him, he comes across as a priviliged, PR orientated tosser with no convictions. Read this thread again if you don't believe me, and accept he has led the tories to failure. How naive of you. I suggest you re-read this thread and see how many times a woman who left office 20 years ago gets a mention. Scotland Tory free and the North East for about 20 years??? Wonder why? Cameron......Nope. The guy on the beeb this morning said that all the voters talk about in Scotland on the doorstep is Thatcher. Alex is right, they have all had a mare but it is the UK plc that will suffer.