PaddockLad

And that's the difference, they were all art school posh, all ideologically driven, so was punk. They used young working class kids to send their message to the masses. Mike Pickering imported some banging tunes. Am certainly not saying one is better than the other but to claim rave was similar to punk in ethos us just plain wrong iyam.

Yeah am probably using the wrong words, they're not a strong point.. But you've got to pretty much accept that if the mainstream is now regularly playing the stuff we heard in clubs 15-20 years ago then things haven't moved on musically which is surely what is the most important thing about what may be termed "dance music culture"? There's nothing original driving change, the clubs and radio stations make the most money from trance and no ones willing to take a chance to take something a tiny bit weird but hugely better in qualityto the masses. So due to mass market forces the culture isn't evolving. You can be sure before Bates and DLT got the bullet the playlist as well as fuckin "our tune" also contained the Progidy and they'd have had to have played it....

For me, there's nothing coming in from the underground that's properly influencing the mainstream, I.e what could be loosely called what you'd hear on radion one. Radio one used to play the weird and the slightly avant garde without really knowing it. Yes you had SAW, but you also had Inner City. I've just finished a job where there was lots of young uns with radio one on and even with my fairly broad mind I've got to say the music was unutterably fuckin shit. That's not age, am open to anything but can you find any originality in the trancey shite that dominates radio one nowadays? It's the same music that I hated when it became popular in clubs in the later 1990s. Am sure you can give me examples of good stuff to try but I doubt if it's going to be top of the download charts anytime soon

The point is it's culturally dead though. It obviously didn't start out as a global phenomenon, but as usual once the mass market claims it it loses its originality which is what the OP in this thread is (I think??) saying. Am not an elitist, I love the popular as much as the obscure, and if kids today love it who the fuck am I to say it's shit and it was better in my day, but it was never intended to be anything more than a good time and as soon as the money men got hold of it it changed for the worst reasons.Punk in essence wanted to change society but failed miserably due to elitism and lack of anything truly coherant by way of a message. Am sure I'll be crucified for saying this too but rave/house/dance music hasn't really moved on much either iyam but I'm probably not the best qualified person on here to make that judgement. I'll just go back to my A guy called Gerald box set

By the mid nineties I'd lost a bit of interest in it tbh(it couldn't compete with keegans side) and I was never a full on rave head anyway, but I was at what was allegedly on of the first parties in Scotland, no way of properly knowing now tbh, it was held in an old quarry near Dalkeith around 88ish. Then I moved down south, and there was a big scene centered on outdoor parties in the new forest during the summer and a club near Worthing called Sterns and one in Bournemouth called Maddison's. These were local "rave clubs" they'd get the likes of Carl cox and John dig weed, the new forest efforts I honestly couldn't tell you who played but they were a lot more obscure.Then there was the odd trip to London for ministry,which was just full of wankers tbh and put me off big clubs pretty much for good with their door policy. Slinky started in Bournemouth around this time and that tosser from hayzee fantazee (Jeremy??) seemed to play every week. It was fuckin dreadful tbh and the new forest gang started getting nicked regularly so they knocked it on the head. VW bug jams were good too I remember, The Progidy turned up in their "harlequin suit" days a couple of times.

I said in its original form and spirit. By the mid nineties it was just another bunch of kids getting walloped in nightclubs. Tbh my parents had done that and they're now 79 and 80.

Rave=alternative reality?

Wasn't Carr manager at Northampton at one point?...

We'll hang on, McLaren was influenced by Situationism and the beat poets of the 50s, wtf was Mike Pickering and the crowd at the Hacienda influenced by? Don't get me wrong, I've nothing against what may be termed rave culture and the pioneers of it in this country and the U.S. did truly create something that changed the game, but my point is the idea behind it was nothing more than having a great time off your tits to loud music. Whether anyone thinks he's a wanker or had much influence or not, McLaren was coming at life from a very different angle.

There was more of what may be termed revolutionary theory around punk when it started (on both sides of the atlantic) than there was to UK djs and mid 80s soul boys discovering Chicago House and subsequently giving it to the masses, but I agree that punk disappeared up its own arse virtually as soon as it started. If you want to split hairs about dates then true rave culture was killed by the criminal justice act 1993(?) which gave the police powers to close down any gathering of more than three peopleplaying "repetitive beats". That may look as if it was truly revolutionary, but by that time criminal gangs had mostly been running the big events since 89 and the true spirit of the original scene had long gone. Once the super clubs like Fabric in London opened and nights like Cream and Gods Kitchen were act their peak in the mid nineties it was as dead as punk was iyam.

That's what the media will tell you but outside of a few idealists what they instigated was a drugs fest, and you're going revolt against the square root of fuck all if you're whacked off your nut on four or five doves.

Am not much of fan of her musically tbh but her revisionism is strangely refreshing....she's far, far more interesting than Madonna has ever been...

They were almost without exception hugely influenced by Bowie and Eno. Without them punk and pop music in the 80s in general would've sounded vastly different. Punk was a rejection of the post war consensus; "we fave that hitler a damn good hiding!" Well they did, but by the 70s their offspring, the baby boomers, had had enough hearing them bang on about it and the dreams that their parents had in 1945 had pretty much turned to ratshit by the 70s for various socio political reasons. Tbh the future was bleakish, but you could save and buy a house pretty easily if you avoided the mass unemployment soon to arrive. That's a lot more than debt ridden 20 something's fresh out of uni can look forward to nowadays.

Ask any forest fan and they piss themselves over this fucker. He wasn't even first choice pick for them most of last season iirc

Don't ask me, I only read it in a book Parky mentioned McLaren in conjunction with Situationism in this thread, all I was saying he was involved in the 60s and had a history of pulling attention seeking stunts. I don't think we can take McLaren's version (or Lydons for that matter, another side of the same coin) of events entirely seriously and I'm not, am just saying you can't dismiss him virtually out of hand because he was a bit of a self aggrandising prick. It's all in here, a great read a pretty well objective and balanced http://www.amazon.co.uk/Englands-Dreaming-Jon-Savage/dp/0571227201

We're three quarters of a century on from the last truly national crisis, you've got to be 80 to remember the war. That's the last time the country was truly united in anything. Since then there's been the end of colonialism, the energy crisis, various financial ups and downs, the end of the 20th century's huge social "experiment" i.e. Communism etc etc...we appear to just bumble along now, all the big ideas have been fought over and the strange thing for me is they've all been discredited but nothing has ultimately won out, all were left with is a fuckin vacuum where the talentless and desperate are promoted to us by a plainly sick fuckin media.

Not as good as a fit Stevie Taylor iyam...

Weeeeelllll...... He and Vivienne Westwood owned a shop called Sex on he kings road in the 70s and the band was named after the shop to promote it, the lads used the shop as a hang out and were encouraged to wear it's clothes. He was was heavily influenced by the Situationist thing, in the 60s he belonged to a sort of collective who went into toy shops and just started to randomly hand toys out to whatever kids were in the store at the time. It's absolutely true to say that he talked himself up massively throughout his life but to dismiss him out of hand as some sort of chancer who got lucky to become famous etc is equally un true. He and Westwood invented the band and he set up all the stunts that got them into the tabloids which is how they maintained their notoriety after the Bill Grundy swearing thing in 1976.

No mate it's me being my usual flippant, always-judge-people-at-their-worst, rude bastard self If he's as he's portrayed in this he's young,aggressive, assertive, a proper unselfish team player and has bags of ability...in other words he's got everything to be a fuckin idol with us.....before he either eats too much pizza or is sold to Chelsea for a gazillion dollars to become "the new Drogba"...

Bit of a greedy bastard by all accounts.... http://gu.com/p/4b34b?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Perth is boom town atm due to mining.....but if China is going into a period of decline...

http://gu.com/p/4b36b?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other How much Aussie Rules is played in the west btw?....

Lua lua with the first? There's some Hun commentary on YouTube for that game now, after Shola's scores you can see me in the crowd bouncing up and down like a demented gibbon..

Newport also has some strange sort of crane/bridge hybrid and their accent is half Welsh half Bristol. It's like none of them know what the fuck they want...

Not having that, not with that gigantic Ronald Macdonald sat on top of the McDonald's you pass by on the autobahn to Cologne. Saw it when we played Bayer Leverkusen in the champions league, tbh it was at least as good as Shola's goal that night...