OTF

you are correct, but unfortunately the PROFILE of the club was raised to something of the correct levels by the despicable and embarrassing Halls and Shepherd and has been lowered by the much wanted and celebrated replacement by them of Ashley. The profile certainly was raised under the Halls and Shepherd, however it also fell a long way from it's peak under them. Granted it has fallen significantly further in a significantly shorter period under Ashley. Chelsea and Man City are in the process of showing that all it takes is a few season of excellent performance for excellent players to want to play for the side. Once that happens the supporter numbers both in town, but more-so out of town will flourish. The downside to this is the number of wankers supporting your club increases ten-fold (if Chelsea and Manchester City are anything to go off).

It would have to be ignorance alone that sees someone shell out that amount of cash for Liverpool when they could pickup Newcastle for substancially less, and having invested just a part of the discrepancy between the two they would have a superior squad of players available, a bigger stadium, all in a one team city. The profile of LIverpool is currently bigger of course, but all it would take is a series of impressive seasons for that to begin to change. Many football fans are unfortunately fickle.

Fuck me, this thread turned to a pile of shit in an instant didn't it...

Long term for sure. You need to be setup to allow for some bumps along the way though. In 88-89 when we were relegated, in his third year at Manchester United the Alex Feguson lead side finished in 11th. The following year they only managed 13th, yet cooler heads prevailed and he kept his job. We all know how the story goes from there. Ultimately though the key is getting the right man in the job, giving him the resources required to do what he wants, at the same time investing in the youth and training facilities for long term benefit. TBH Ferguson took them to 2nd in 1987/88 and it's a well known fact that winning the FA Cup in 1989/90 saved him from the chop, so the SAF argument really is moot point. A result the other way in the FA Cup and chances are Man U wouldn't have equalled Liverpool's record for the most top flight championships. Aye, but it's not a moot point is it? It shows, regardless of the reason for keeping him on, that not sacking him for finishing 13th in the league was a good decision that ultimately contributed to a phenomenal run of trophies for the team under his stewardship.

Should definitely be aiming to win every match that is played, that's for certain (tough for clubs with managers like Sam Allardyce!) but to over romanticise it all and harbour a realistic aim to win the league is delusional in the current climate.

In it's own way the whole Zack and Miri incident was hilarious. It's certianly lead to a big change in attitude from Smith (eventually). I was keen to hear the SMod commentary track though... there's none on the Z&M Blu-ray either, despite the flick being some of his best work. I've not got much time for Malcolm as well. Smith, we know thinks he's funny, but he just seems like a moody fucker with an annoying voice. The best contribution he has made IMO has been all of the (usually decent) Malcolm impersonations by Kevin, Mosier and Brian.

The fight titting Red Ranger one looks mint. Sadly I feel this means the real one will be nothing like that, but I live in hope.

explain with examples I have ALWAYS said exactly as I am saying now, especially to those who insisted that during the 15 years we were the 5th most qualified team for europe that we were run by good directors rather than shit ones. Laughable. I have stated my case and target clearly enough, it certainly isn't the levels of clubs with half the fanbase that we have. For the first, and perfect example see above. I'll now ask you two questions (one being the one that you already failed to answer). So that I have two more examples to add within this very thread. (1) What do you think we should be aiming for next season? (2) What to you think I am saying we should be aiming for next season?

You don't seem to understand that any targets that people are talking about for next season are just that - for next season. What do you think we should be aiming for next season? I know it's not your style to answer a question in a response, but I implore you to give it a go.

Long term for sure. You need to be setup to allow for some bumps along the way though. In 88-89 when we were relegated, in his third year at Manchester United the Alex Feguson lead side finished in 11th. The following year they only managed 13th, yet cooler heads prevailed and he kept his job. We all know how the story goes from there. Ultimately though the key is getting the right man in the job, giving him the resources required to do what he wants, at the same time investing in the youth and training facilities for long term benefit.

That is worrying. Birmingham WTF!?

Listened to the first 10-15 minutes of the first episode of that on the way home last night. Does it get better? I didn't even make it that far. Mumbling and bumbling about the name of the show. I don't mind them in small doses but dread when Smith goes back to Jersey as he does around a months worth with them. Yeah, when Smith goes back to Jersey and records SMod with Brian (and sometimes Walt) sometimes it's a bit too in-jokey and half the SMod is them pissing themselves laughing at something that may only be mildly amusing. Tell em Steve Dave has had some good moments though, mostly resolving around Walt. He's funny, but not in the traditional sense, and his laugh alone is hilarious. Brian hsa his moments, but for the most part Walt is the drawcard IMO. Mosier is definitely awesome though, and has certainly grown with his contributions. They've gone a little off the boil lately with their new sponsor, but I'm sure that will settle down.

If he does go that will indeed signal their true intentions. You'd have to think that even Ashley would not be stupid enough to sell the club's best player, but noone could honestly rule it out. Not buying enough players is one thing, but selling your best players after being promoted would be batshit insane.

Nolan getting the goals will be good for keeping Carroll (and to a lesser extent Lovenkrands) keen right to the end of the season.

Us to win every game. Arsenal to win the premiership. John Terry to miss a last minute penalty and cost Chelsea the title, injuring himself in the process. John Terry to blast an own goal in the FA Cup final gifting Portsmouth the Cup. Australia to win the World Cup (beating Germany in their opening match) New Zealand to beat Italy in the World Cup.

I agree with you. The difference is that I know it's not possible to turn it around in one season. Your great expectation is wonderful and all, but there's no chance of it being realised in the short-term. There's no elevator to the top unfortunately, so we need to get started on building steps, one at a time. Truth is we wouldn't be where we are if we didn't have an owner who got too close to the edge whilst peering over. That drop for us corresponded with other clubs advancing (Tottenham, Aston Villa and Everton) so it means that we now have even further to ascend to get back to where we were in the early 2000s.

It's a good point you raise about selling players that could help to put us in the top 6; Milner maybe, Bassong maybe, and Given. The fact that Milner was sold while we were still in the Premier League is the most worrying thing to come out of those transactions. Given too is a worry, but more that he wanted to leave somewhere where he had invested so much time and effort, somewhere where the fans looked up to him because of the negative way in which the club was being run. Bassong's exit was probably a necessary cost owing the attrition of relegation. I'm sure there will be a target to finish next season mid-table, but unless there is a decent amount of investment into the side I don't think it will be at all realistic. Teams like Birmingham are the exception to the rule, that crop up every now and then and usually quickly fade back into obscurity. Bouncing back to 2006-2007 Reading were exactly that. They finished the league in 8th position on 55 points (we were 13th on 43 points pre-Ashley). The next season Reading were relegated in 18th position picking up 36 points (we again picked up 43 points finishing 12th this time largely under Ashley).

They ARE the fuckin doom mongers !!! What else would you call people with LOW horizons? Good point that like. I don't have low 'horizons'. Trying to look at a realistic bigger picture. Like anyone I could spout nonsense about how the club should be run and where we should be in the league table, but the truth is that it all means nothing when reality clearly has the club heading in a different direction in the short term.

Some people don't seem to realise that when it comes down to it, modern football is just a money game for the big players. It doesn't matter what crest is stitched onto the shirt just who has the most money to throw at bringing players in. Look at Chelsea, look at Man City, look at Barcelona (look at Real Madrid for how to throw money innefectively) it's all about money. If you spend it in large enough volumes you'll win titles, or at the very least move your team to the upper echelons of the table. It's nice to romanticize it, but like it or not in the end money is all it largely comes down to. Ambition doesn't bring you money, money allows you to realise ambition. Ambition on it's own is nothing. Money is the key. If you can afford to throw away a couple of hundred million to raise the immediate profile of the club then in a few years you MAY be turning some minor form of profit as a result of additional money coming in from the likes of Champions League etc. If you're not effective in the spending of the money, there's no getting it back. With the number of financial juggernauts in the English game it's impossible in the short term to compete without being completely financially irresponsible. Without having squillions of your own money even if you wanted to do it as a rich but not mega-rich owner you probably couldn't as a result of the GFC.

I'd agree with that. So far the ambition has not been shown. Certainly not prior to the relegation. Whether any is shown in this off-season remains to be seen. I think we'll see a moderate amount in the interest of Ashley protecting his financial interests in the club. Further than that is impossible to predict but based on what we've seen it's unlikely that we'll ever see true ambition from Ashley.

FC Twente who are top have exactly the same record, 15 wins, 1 draw, 0 defeats, not as many scored mind you. What Twente have that Ajax don't is clearly an English manager who speaks English with a fantastically caricatured Dutch accent.

As I have said already in this thread. Hughton is saying the right thing and standing by his signing. But he knows deep down that he is being forced to sign players and run the club in a sub standard fashion because his boss has zero ambition and therefore he is having to adopt lower standards that he ought to be doing I have no doubt that to some extent that is correct. in fact it is completely and totally correct, and I'm sorry to piss on your chips at the moment, but I'm afraid that as in other occasions in the past when we have been promoted, I fear that all the optimism will be short lived and it will all become fairly obvious that the limit of ambition for one of the biggest clubs in the country is to compete at the levels of clubs such as Bolton and Wigan. Which is of course what a lot of people wanted when we were throwing away money and qualifying for the Champions League and had the 14th biggest turnover in world football. It's not pissing on my chips, I get where you're coming from but unlike you I'm trying to be as realistic as possible about potential outcomes for the next couple of seasons. I think you will admit that if we want to immediately challenge for Europe it would need a massive investment of funds into the club. We're talking easily in excess of 100 million pounds. The whole squad would need to be gutted, and the majority of our current first team players would be required as backups to cover for injuries and suspensions. It would be a equally large gamble to go and do something like that, because even if we bought in players that were capable of doing it, there's absolutely no guarantee that they would complement each other and immediately gel on the field. That sort of buy-in would only have us competing with the likes of Aston Villa, Everton and Tottenham. To take it to the next level we'd need to double our spend and on top of that we would honestly have to pay gargantuan wages as it would require a snow-ball effect of players signing for the really decent players to stand up and take notice and even consider signing for us. I want what you want, but turnover is one thing, having to build a European quality team more or less from scratch is another altogether. It absolutely has to be done over a period of years unless you have owners who don't care about writing off a couple of hundred million pounds.

As I have said already in this thread. Hughton is saying the right thing and standing by his signing. But he knows deep down that he is being forced to sign players and run the club in a sub standard fashion because his boss has zero ambition and therefore he is having to adopt lower standards that he ought to be doing I have no doubt that to some extent that is correct. On the whole though you'd be hard pressed to find many managers who don't have constraints on them that they would love to break. The thing with Hughton though, is that he may be at his best when under tight constraints. Some managers don't have the ability to spend large amounts of money wisely. At this stage of his managerial career I have little doubt that Hughton would not be the right man to make the most of a large transfer budget. The more I think about it, the more I believe that the right thing to do this season is spend a relatively modest amount of money (say 25 million in the off-season) to complement and strengthen the existing squad. In January look to strengthen in the areas where we are looking most weak. The real movement should come in the following window, where we'll better be able to gauge the standard of players required to push up the table. What we need now is a balance of stability and evolution so that we can take the small amount of momentum gathered from winning the Championship and use it to our advantage next season.

To do anything other than give him praise would be stupid on every level. I don't think it was necessarily a panic buy, more-so it was a bit of an insurance policy in case we suffered a string of injuries to players up front.

Probably shouldn't say this, but I thought it. Compare the wage bill and there's like;y to be an ever bigger gap