The Fish

Ginola and Robert wouldn't have, they're probably shit as well. Ditto Ibrahimovic, Le Tissier, Cantona, etc. What's Ben Arfa got to do with Rafa man? The discussion is about whether it's reasonable to hate an ex-footballer because he isn't the complete package. I'd say it's not reasonable and smacks of misplaced frustrations. Nobody is saying he's perfect, in fact most temper their praise by including criticisms.

Yes, that Rafa. What did Winning more than what those two did doing.

... No, because Dirk Kuyt is graft over guile. However, Ben Arfa is a better footballer than Dirk Kuyt. And not all managers play like Rafa does. Keegan and Robson didn't, off the top of my head and Ben Arfa would have got in both of their teams.

Just watching the video above while Django Django's "Default" is on the radio.The almost stuttering beat goes so well with his quick feet

Nope, but then neither would Robert or Ginola. They don't work hard enough. Who are our 1st choice wingers now? Matt Ritchie and Yoann Gouffran. Neither fit to lace the boots of the Tricolor Trio, but they don't half graft.

They all are man. I honestly believe the big issue people have with Ben Arfa is that they truly believe that it's reasonable to expect him to be the complete player, because he's unbelievable going forward. Nobody bitches and moans that Tiote doesn't dribble past players, or Lascelles doesn't deliver quality crosses. It's not their job, but an attacking player must defend? If HBA had that mentality to chase lost causes and put his body on the line, on top of being wonderful in attack he'd be world class and would never, in his life, played for our club. Similarly if Colback had any footballing ability he'd be plying his trade for the biggest clubs in the world. But because the Ginger Pirlo works hard, people forgive his ineptitude, forgetting that football should be entertaining otherwise we should all go and watch Iron Man events. Look at him go man, just look at him go I couldn't find any highlight videos for Jack Colback trying hard, sorry.

Most really good players need that selfish ego to really get to their peak. Shearer had it, Cole had it, Ginola, Robert, Cabaye, and so on. I can't really think of a great player who wasn't a bit selfish. Revisionist bollocks. Ginola was famously lazy, an oft referenced quote from Beresford calls him out for it.

I meant that Ginola was a winger and the players he had ahead of him were centre forwards. HBA wasn't a classic winger and is more a wide forward/attacking midfielder, and the players he had ahead of him weren't the types of striker that would best benefit from him, nor would he benefit from. He'd have been better off playing alongside deeper lying players or busy players making runs. I wouldn't, but then I can confirm that HBA's mental attributes aren't all below 5.

Well, I know what you're saying, but they're defending well for 90% of the game. They're not getting spanked, they're just switching off. I'd say their issue is game management and leadership.

I remember Ginola running down blind alleys, but yeah he would cross more than HBA did, but then, he had Sir Les and Shearer to aim for and was more of an old fashioned winger. Robert was too, but they both did fuck all to help out Beresford or Bernard. Trouble is, long enough time has passed to sand down the rough edges of their Newcastle career, now they're revered, but at the time there were plenty of people moaning on that they didn't get stuck in. Just like, in 5 years time when we've signed some fancy Dan winger who has unbelievable talent, there'll be people moaning that he doesn't track back. Because they're enemies of football and want a team of James Perchs.

Mackems aren't the only ones who want him back apparently; https://www.villatalk.com/topic/15605-next-villa-manager/

Was thinking for coffee? I thought tea was supposed to be made with boiling water?

Can you set it to pour out water that's just under boiling?

W D L 1 7 3 That's fucking tragic form for a team hoping to get back into the top flight at the first time of asking. If games finished on 80 minutes, they'd be on 16pts!

Then the argument is doomed to continue forever, because the defence of him is in response to the over-the-top criticism. As an aside, you seem to be remembering a different David Ginola and Laurent Robert to me... both of them were selfish. One of the most repeated criticism of Robert was that he was a lazy selfish prick.

Well, he did when he was being played in the right system, but that system wasn't Pardew's system and so when the ball is sailing overhead I'm not sure we can demand too much from the lad. And when people say he's fat I struggle to remember a game when he was blowing out of his arse? Certainly no more than Sissoko, Cabaye, Cisse, Ba etc. Yet I do remember him getting moaning arseholes out their seats with his ability on the ball. I've not seen a single fan of his say he's perfect, but the criticism from his detractors goes way over the top. Ginola 75 games - 7 goals. HBA 86 games - 14 goals. Robert 181 games - 32 goals. And you have to consider who the lazy french wingers were playing with/for. Ginola had two of Newcastle greatest ever players in his team, plus legends in their own right dotted throughout the squad. Robert also enjoyed remarkable colleagues. HBA had James Perch and Danny Guthrie. He's definitely flawed and certainly deserves some criticism, but honestly, some of the abuse levelled at him should be reserved for ex-managers and/or sunderland players.

Jesus, a multitude of reasons. Ginola was as lazy and temperamental as Ben Arfa, but he played under a great manager, at a great time and left at his peak. Shearer's arrogance and selfishness wasn't important when stacked up against his previous goals and Leadership. Ben Arfa played under a bad manager during a shitty time and left under a cloud. I seem to recall Newcastle fans slating Robert because he didn't add tracking back to the goals, the assists and the skills. There's just a subset of football fans that think that graft trumps guile and that makes me glum.

Don't get precious, all players have failings but some players are canonised.

This... this has literally never happened before. Lads! He wants me to type more.

Spent a cuntload on Fellaini though.

I wonder what the odds are on Moyes?